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Post by Mickmack on Nov 23, 2020 11:24:29 GMT
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Tipping point: Beams of light were provided to footballing communities of Tipperary and Cavan
Malachy Clerkin Follow about 5 hours ago
Nothing in sport beats the end of a famine. Not the last-minute goals, not the 80-yard tries. Not holing out from the fairway or a 170 check-out or a patient ride getting up on the line. All of those are great, some of them transcendent even. But they belong, for the most part, to the protagonist.
Much as we are all entitled to feel moved by Messi skipping around four tackles and turning the keeper into a lamp-post, it lacks a certain sense of belonging. On some level, because we are all immersed in sport and beauty and miracles, we might even claim some part of it as belonging to all humanity. Especially if it’s a Sunday evening and we’ve tied a few on. But it’s still his goal, or Barca’s goal, or Argentina’s goal.
The end of a famine is different. When a famine ends it’s about more than the famine-enders. They made it happen, yes. And it is because they did it will live on beyond them. It will be a line in their obituary when the time comes, and it will mean they are made men for as long as the famine is remembered.
But they’re only a part of it. The ones who came before them feel it just as deeply. More so, in some cases.
That’s what made Sunday in Páirc Uí Chaoimh and the Athletic Grounds such emotional affairs. Yes, there is an uncanny resonance in the 2020 All-Ireland semi-final line-up mirroring that of 1920, especially given the cloud of darkness enveloping both of those years, a centenary apart. But the beams of light provided to the footballing communities of Tipperary and Cavan by this one afternoon don’t have very much to do with ancient history. They find their meaning in much more recent struggles.
It was no surprise, therefore, to hear David Power so keen to talk about 85 years rather than 100 on Sunday. The Bloody Sunday commemorations fed into Tipperary’s first Munster title since 1935, but Power’s words were a reminder not to overdo it for the sake of a handy Tipp are Munster champions because he and his father before him and the small but fiercely committed group of Tipperary football people got the show on the road and kept it on the road.
My abiding memory of Power down the years is of seeing him standing outside Semple Stadium on big hurling days in the summer, shaking a bucket with Friends Of Tipperary Football on the side of it.
He would have been minor manager or under-21 manager at the time, and the people walking past him were invariably about to watch at least a few footballers who’d been through his hands walk in the parade for the hurlers.
Rattling his bucket for a few crumbs to keep his teams alive as a going concern was the kind of thing plenty of passers-by would admire. Good man David, fair play to you, keep it going. But to most of them he might as well have been collecting to save a rare species of badger. Tipp football? Well sure, if you’re into that kind of thing.
But he kept at it. And people like Pat Moroney and Mick O’Loughlin kept at it too. When Tipp got to the All-Ireland semi-final in 2016, we all went off in search of the football lifers, the folks down around south Tipperary who lived through all the hammerings and all the neglect and who were never drained of their faith.
Moroney did his time as a player, manager, selector and along with Power was a key driver of the development squads that were set up in 2007. The fruits of those squads are the Munster champions today, turning a page on 85 years when all they had was wishes and dreams. When I rang him in 2016, we talked a lot about structures and pathways and coaching and all that good stuff. But we talked a bit about magic and inspiration too.
Under-14 team “Back in 2010 they were stuck for someone to present medals to a west Tipperary under-14 team,” Moroney said. “They had nobody else so they asked me. So I said fine, but what will I talk to them about? I wanted something that might be relevant to them. I went off and photocopied the last Tipperary team that won an All-Ireland in 1920. I printed off copies for each of them, pictures with their names on them.
“And I said to them, ‘lads, in 10 years it will be 100 years since Tipp won an All-Ireland football title. Ye’ll be 24 or 25 years of age when the centenary comes around. We want to be there and see if we can win another one. And, lads, ye are the ones that we are depending to get us to Croke Park and do that job for us.’ You have to leave them with a message. You have to give them a goal. If you don’t aim high you won’t achieve.”
This is what made Sunday special. Cavan’s Ulster title is a salad day for them but football will never wither on the vine in Cavan. This year, next year, in a decade’s time, Cavan were going to find their way back to a provincial title. As they would say themselves, it’s bred into the hoors.
That kind of inevitability has never existed in Tipperary. Every kind of wind imaginable was against them – and will continue to be against them. Cork and Kerry will still be around in 2021 and beyond. So will Tipperary hurling. Happy and all as people will be at such a heart-warming tale, the continued success of the Tipperary footballers is in the interests of none of those three interested parties.
But on Sunday, 10 years after Pat Moroney told a group of 14-year-olds to think big, a few of them were on the panel that ended the famine. It belongs to the Tipp footballers, but it also belongs to 85 years’ worth of Pat Moroneys.
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Post by kingdomconor on Nov 23, 2020 19:18:08 GMT
Massive congratulations to the footballers of Tipperary and Cavan this morning. Something raw and magical about those celebrations yesterday. Tipperary played some lovely football and some of their kick passing into their forwards was a joy to watch. Wearing those jerseys to commemorate Bloody Sunday just added to a great occasion.
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Jo90
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Post by Jo90 on Nov 24, 2020 12:52:24 GMT
Cavan are trying to get their semi-final played somewhere besides Croke Park. If that's the case, Tipp should try to get their semi-final played in Newbridge.
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Post by buck02 on Nov 24, 2020 13:12:51 GMT
Cavan are trying to get their semi-final played somewhere besides Croke Park. If that's the case, Tipp should try to get their semi-final played in Newbridge. Surely Tipp v Mayo has to be played in the Gaelic Grounds
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Nov 24, 2020 14:59:16 GMT
Cavan are trying to get their semi-final played somewhere besides Croke Park. If that's the case, Tipp should try to get their semi-final played in Newbridge. Surely Tipp v Mayo has to be played in the Gaelic Grounds Might make a bit of money for the Kerry county board
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Post by onlykerry on Nov 24, 2020 15:07:03 GMT
Aaagghh Jaysus lads, you can hardly expect Duublin to play on a muucky ol pitch - thats good enough for the bleeding culchies but we expect better .....
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Nov 24, 2020 16:27:12 GMT
Maybe Tipp and Cavan want to play in Croke Park?
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Post by Mickmack on Nov 24, 2020 16:51:03 GMT
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Conor McKeon November 24 2020 11:45 AM
Cavan's Ulster final hero Thomas Galligan admits he expects now that their All-Ireland semi-final with Dublin will be played in Croke Park.
In the immediate aftermath of their shock victory over Donegal, Breffni boss Mickey Graham questioned the need to stage Cavan’s semi-final, fixed for Saturday week, in Croke Park when crowds are not currently a factor.
Graham said his preference would be to play the game at a "neutral" venue and not a venue that is like "their own back garden", such is the familiarity the All-Ireland champions have built up there.
Speaking today, at the GAA’s launch of the All-Ireland series, Galligan admitted: "I just expected it to be in Croke Park because it’s an All-Ireland semi."
He admitted, however, "it would probably help us if it was out of Croker.
"It’s not up to us to make a call on that, the GAA will make a call on that and we’ll play it wherever, like. At this stage we’re meant to be long bet so we’ll go out and give them a go."
Asked whether playing in Croke Park would put Cavan at a distinct disadvantage, Gallivan replied: “they’re well used to playing there but I think everyone loves to play and everyone wants to play in Croker.
"I don’t think anyone would be disappointed if we had to play it in Croker because growing up, that’s exactly where you want to play, against the best team in the country in Croker and if you make it there you’ll make it anywhere."
It will be Cavan’s first All-Ireland semi-final since 1997, although many of Graham’s squad have played in the All-Ireland series at minor and Under-21 level.
"I suppose it’s a little bit daunting but it’s also exciting," Galligan stressed.
"You’re playing the best team in the country so you’ll really know where you’re at when you play them.
"I think more people will be excited to get playing like. If you had asked people at the start of the year that Cavan were going to be in an All-Ireland semi-final, you would have got good odds. I think we’ll enjoy it more than be afraid of it.
"Nobody expected us to get here so there’s no pressure on us. We’re going out and playing football. The favourites tag weighed heavily on Donegal the other night so hopefully it’ll do the same to Dublin."
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Post by Mickmack on Nov 24, 2020 16:51:41 GMT
Mickey Graham has expressed a preference for a neutral venue.
A tight boggy field might help Cavan.
I am sure there is one in Monaghan
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Post by buck02 on Nov 24, 2020 17:14:01 GMT
Maybe Tipp and Cavan want to play in Croke Park? Cavan don't anyway. Tipp probably wouldn't mind for 2 reasons. Mayo are a more physical team than Tipp and a tighter, slower pitch would suit Mayo in this game. Also, having a match in Croke Park before a possible final would help Tipp too.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Nov 24, 2020 17:19:21 GMT
In that case zero rationale for playing the match in Croke Park.
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Post by veteran on Nov 24, 2020 20:23:06 GMT
I notice some of the experts are already pining for the good old glory days of knockout football on the strength of the wins for Cavan and Tipperary last weekend. Another case of the result determining the narrative. It is not that long ago when experts were lamenting the fact that, that after all the training , some teams were knocked out after just one match. They then embraced the qualifiers like a child would a new toy. Like a child , they tired of the new toy and now look for gratification elsewhere. They conveniently forget that the glory of the knockout system this year saw the likes of Westmeath, Laois and Meath dispatched to oblivion.
Conveniently forgotten as well, under the system existing to 2019, Tipperary and Cavan would be guaranteed at least three more games rather than , in the case of Cavan , the likelihood of being summarily banished up the road after an evisceration by Dublin. . Oh for the glory days of the winner takes all on a particular Sunday!
Incidentally, I haven’t heard a geek over the past few days from the experts who proclaim that we need a two tier championship. What tier would Cavan and Tipperary have been in 2020?
And of course not to mention dispensing with the provincial championships. Don’t mention that to Cavan and Tipperary.
I wish the experts would think matters through when contemplating innovations. Need to consider the advantages and disadvantages and unintended consequences of any system change/rule change.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Nov 24, 2020 20:38:52 GMT
I notice some of the experts are already pining for the good old glory days of knockout football on the strength of the wins for Cavan and Tipperary last weekend. Another case of the result determining the narrative. It is not that long ago when experts were lamenting the fact that, that after all the training , some teams were knocked out after just one match. They then embraced the qualifiers like a child would a new toy. Like a child , they tired of the new toy and now look for gratification elsewhere. They conveniently forget that the glory of the knockout system this year saw the likes of Westmeath, Laois and Meath dispatched to oblivion. Conveniently forgotten as well, under the system existing to 2019, Tipperary and Cavan would be guaranteed at least three more games rather than , in the case of Cavan , the likelihood of being summarily banished up the road after an evisceration by Dublin. . Oh for the glory days of the winner takes all on a particular Sunday! Incidentally, I haven’t heard a geek over the past few days from the experts who proclaim that we need a two tier championship. What tier would Cavan and Tipperary have been in 2020? And of course not to mention dispensing with the provincial championships. Don’t mention that to Cavan and Tipperary. I wish the experts would think matters through when contemplating innovations. Need to consider the advantages and disadvantages and unintended consequences of any system change/rule change. What I was thinking satisfies all that criteria, i.e. Provincial knockout (just like this year and as historically), but then have an AI cup for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd 8 to get knocked out, so teams get plenty of games after their winters training. Of course you are left with a Super 8, in fact the other groups could also play that format. Key is that every team can win Sam in a given year, i.e. Tipp and Cavan this year, and top teams aren't given the insurance of slipping up. Also preserves the noble provincial finals. There is certainly more right about this than there is wrong with it - nobody has pointed out any flaws really. I can even see a tweaking in it, i.e. seed teams to avoid mismatches. I will be an honourary GAA man after this, me with my bowler hat looking down at ye from by box in Croker, brandy and cigars, limo to and from games, and the rest - ah that's the life!
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Post by veteran on Nov 24, 2020 20:56:16 GMT
I am delighted that Mickey Harte has been snapped up by Louth. If would have been a shame if one of the most significant figures in the GAA over the last fifty years was lost to the game. Apparently, they are about to create a new stadium also up there and , apart from his impact on the seniors , Mickey’s charisma will surely encourage a lot of young lads to try football rather than soccer.
A couple of years ago I was up In Portlaoise to see Kerry minors play Louth in a quarter final. I remember being hugely impressed by several of the Louth lads. Of course defeat was inevitably their lot with DC going wild in the Kerry forward line. A Louth man was sitting near me and he could scarcely control his excitement because his grandson was playing for Louth. He was almost tearful saying that he thought he would never live to see the day when a blood relation would line up against Kerry in a championship game. After the game young David stayed out on the field signing autographs . My new found Louth friend said that before meeting the family he had to rush down to get young Clifford’s autograph! We take so much for granted down here.
The last time Louth won the All-Ireland was 1957. Their captain was Dermot O’Brien. Dermot gained more fame and fortune subsequently as a singer, accordion player and showband leader. He often told a story relating to that 1957 final. Needless to say matters were more haphazard back then. Dermot arrived at the gate in Croke Park on his own and , in spite of protesting that he was the Louth captain, the gateman did not recognise him and refused to let him in. Obviously somebody came to Dermot’s aid and the story had a happy ending. Different times.
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Post by givehimaball on Nov 24, 2020 21:54:20 GMT
I notice some of the experts are already pining for the good old glory days of knockout football on the strength of the wins for Cavan and Tipperary last weekend. Another case of the result determining the narrative. It is not that long ago when experts were lamenting the fact that, that after all the training , some teams were knocked out after just one match. They then embraced the qualifiers like a child would a new toy. Like a child , they tired of the new toy and now look for gratification elsewhere. They conveniently forget that the glory of the knockout system this year saw the likes of Westmeath, Laois and Meath dispatched to oblivion. Conveniently forgotten as well, under the system existing to 2019, Tipperary and Cavan would be guaranteed at least three more games rather than , in the case of Cavan , the likelihood of being summarily banished up the road after an evisceration by Dublin. . Oh for the glory days of the winner takes all on a particular Sunday! Incidentally, I haven’t heard a geek over the past few days from the experts who proclaim that we need a two tier championship. What tier would Cavan and Tipperary have been in 2020? And of course not to mention dispensing with the provincial championships. Don’t mention that to Cavan and Tipperary. I wish the experts would think matters through when contemplating innovations. Need to consider the advantages and disadvantages and unintended consequences of any system change/rule change. Any one who thinks there is any possibility of going back to straight knock-out is only exhibiting a passing acquaintence with reality. Managers and players of the bottom tier teams have spoken about the need for more games not less games if these sides are going to have any chance to improve. These year under the straight knock-out system the 8 Division 4 teams played 7 championship games in total [London and Sligo didn't play any and Limerick played 2 games because they beat Waterford] In 2019 the Division 4 teams played 18 games [the average over the last decade would be 20 championship games] Under the new Tier 2 proposals I would expect that number of game to likely increase to somewhere around the 23. The other thing is that the quality of these games is likely to be far more competitive. The risks of getting a hammering decreases a lot when there's no risk of being drawn against Division 1 or 2 opposition. Instead it will be an increased number of games against other teams of a closer level. The 2nd tier would have made no difference whatsoever to both Cavan and Tipperary had it been in place this year. Absolutely none. Zero. They would have won the provincial titles same as they did this year. Then as provincial champions they would have been straight into the Super 8s. Even if they had lost their Provincial Championships they would still have been in the Tier 1 Qualifiers. The 2nd tier championship would have been made up of Division 3 and Division 4 teams who didn't get to their Provincial Final.The definition of a Division 3 team would have been at the end of the league i.e Cavan and Fermanagh as opposed to Cork and Down. This year that would have been Waterford, Limerick, Carlow, Offaly, Wexford, Wicklow, Louth, Longford, Leitrim, Sligo, Antrim, Fermanagh, Derry, London. I defy anyone to make the case that those 14 teams playing off against each other for a cup isn't an improvement on the previous situation where they were just making up the numbers as cannon-fodder in the qualifiers. It's not going to be a magic bullet to improve standards in these counties but at least it gives these counties more competitive games in summer time with a chance to win silverware. The 4 losing provincial finalist in the Tier 1 Qualifiers would have been Cork, Donegal, Meath, Galway. The rest of the teams in the Tier 1 qualifiers would have been Kerry, Clare, Roscommon, Monaghan, Armagh, Tyrone, Down, Laois, Kildare, Westmeath
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Post by Mickmack on Nov 24, 2020 22:17:24 GMT
I notice some of the experts are already pining for the good old glory days of knockout football on the strength of the wins for Cavan and Tipperary last weekend. Another case of the result determining the narrative. It is not that long ago when experts were lamenting the fact that, that after all the training , some teams were knocked out after just one match. They then embraced the qualifiers like a child would a new toy. Like a child , they tired of the new toy and now look for gratification elsewhere. They conveniently forget that the glory of the knockout system this year saw the likes of Westmeath, Laois and Meath dispatched to oblivion. Conveniently forgotten as well, under the system existing to 2019, Tipperary and Cavan would be guaranteed at least three more games rather than , in the case of Cavan , the likelihood of being summarily banished up the road after an evisceration by Dublin. . Oh for the glory days of the winner takes all on a particular Sunday! Incidentally, I haven’t heard a geek over the past few days from the experts who proclaim that we need a two tier championship. What tier would Cavan and Tipperary have been in 2020? And of course not to mention dispensing with the provincial championships. Don’t mention that to Cavan and Tipperary. I wish the experts would think matters through when contemplating innovations. Need to consider the advantages and disadvantages and unintended consequences of any system change/rule change. Any one who thinks there is any possibility of going back to straight knock-out is only exhibiting a passing acquaintence with reality. Managers and players of the bottom tier teams have spoken about the need for more games not less games if these sides are going to have any chance to improve. These year under the straight knock-out system the 8 Division 4 teams played 7 championship games in total [London and Sligo didn't play any and Limerick played 2 games because they beat Waterford] In 2019 the Division 4 teams played 18 games [the average over the last decade would be 20 championship games] Under the new Tier 2 proposals I would expect that number of game to likely increase to somewhere around the 23 The 2nd tier would have made no difference whatsoever to both Cavan and Tipperary had it been in place this year. Absolutely none. Zero. They would have won the provincial titles same as they did this year. Then as provincial champions they would have been straight into the Super 8s. Even if they had lost their Provincial Championships they would still have been in the Tier 1 Qualifiers The 2nd tier championship would have been made up of Division 3 and Division 4 teams who didn't get to their Provincial Final.The definition of a Division 3 team would have been at the end of the league i.e Cavan and Fermanagh as opposed to Cork and Down. This year that would have been Waterford, Limerick, Carlow, Offaly, Wexford, Wicklow, Louth, Longford, Leitrim, Sligo, Antrim, Fermanagh, Derry, London. I defy anyone to make the case that those 14 teams playing off against each other for a cup isn't an improvement on the previous situation where they were just making up the numbers as cannon-fodder in the qualifiers. The 4 losing provincial finalist in the Tier 1 Qualifiers would have been Cork, Donegal, Meath, Galway. The rest of the teams in the Tier 1 qualifiers would have been Kerry, Clare, Roscommon, Monaghan, Armagh, Tyrone, Down, Laois, Kildare, Westmeath thanks for that. A lot of information there.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Nov 25, 2020 15:23:02 GMT
In that case zero rationale for playing the match in Croke Park. Cavan have come out and said they want to play in Croke Park.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2020 19:19:22 GMT
No point the Cavan county board picking a battle they were never going to win
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Post by john4 on Nov 25, 2020 19:23:51 GMT
In that case zero rationale for playing the match in Croke Park. Cavan have come out and said they want to pay in Croke Park. The Cavan stereotype would suggest otherwise!
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Post by Mickmack on Nov 25, 2020 20:31:02 GMT
I notice some of the experts are already pining for the good old glory days of knockout football on the strength of the wins for Cavan and Tipperary last weekend. Another case of the result determining the narrative. It is not that long ago when experts were lamenting the fact that, that after all the training , some teams were knocked out after just one match. They then embraced the qualifiers like a child would a new toy. Like a child , they tired of the new toy and now look for gratification elsewhere. They conveniently forget that the glory of the knockout system this year saw the likes of Westmeath, Laois and Meath dispatched to oblivion. Conveniently forgotten as well, under the system existing to 2019, Tipperary and Cavan would be guaranteed at least three more games rather than , in the case of Cavan , the likelihood of being summarily banished up the road after an evisceration by Dublin. . Oh for the glory days of the winner takes all on a particular Sunday! Incidentally, I haven’t heard a geek over the past few days from the experts who proclaim that we need a two tier championship. What tier would Cavan and Tipperary have been in 2020? And of course not to mention dispensing with the provincial championships. Don’t mention that to Cavan and Tipperary. I wish the experts would think matters through when contemplating innovations. Need to consider the advantages and disadvantages and unintended consequences of any system change/rule change. Any one who thinks there is any possibility of going back to straight knock-out is only exhibiting a passing acquaintence with reality. Managers and players of the bottom tier teams have spoken about the need for more games not less games if these sides are going to have any chance to improve. These year under the straight knock-out system the 8 Division 4 teams played 7 championship games in total [London and Sligo didn't play any and Limerick played 2 games because they beat Waterford] In 2019 the Division 4 teams played 18 games [the average over the last decade would be 20 championship games] Under the new Tier 2 proposals I would expect that number of game to likely increase to somewhere around the 23. The other thing is that the quality of these games is likely to be far more competitive. The risks of getting a hammering decreases a lot when there's no risk of being drawn against Division 1 or 2 opposition. Instead it will be an increased number of games against other teams of a closer level. The 2nd tier would have made no difference whatsoever to both Cavan and Tipperary had it been in place this year. Absolutely none. Zero. They would have won the provincial titles same as they did this year. Then as provincial champions they would have been straight into the Super 8s. Even if they had lost their Provincial Championships they would still have been in the Tier 1 Qualifiers. The 2nd tier championship would have been made up of Division 3 and Division 4 teams who didn't get to their Provincial Final.The definition of a Division 3 team would have been at the end of the league i.e Cavan and Fermanagh as opposed to Cork and Down. This year that would have been Waterford, Limerick, Carlow, Offaly, Wexford, Wicklow, Louth, Longford, Leitrim, Sligo, Antrim, Fermanagh, Derry, London. I defy anyone to make the case that those 14 teams playing off against each other for a cup isn't an improvement on the previous situation where they were just making up the numbers as cannon-fodder in the qualifiers. It's not going to be a magic bullet to improve standards in these counties but at least it gives these counties more competitive games in summer time with a chance to win silverware. The 4 losing provincial finalist in the Tier 1 Qualifiers would have been Cork, Donegal, Meath, Galway. The rest of the teams in the Tier 1 qualifiers would have been Kerry, Clare, Roscommon, Monaghan, Armagh, Tyrone, Down, Laois, Kildare, Westmeath Am i correct in saying that this journo is not informed about Tier 2 proposal. ...... Consent Subscribe Gaelic Football Premium Two-tier farce gets exposed on day of days for Tipperary and Cavan Eamonn Sweeney November 23 2020 02:30 AM It was Football Bloody Hell Sunday. Tipperary and Cavan combined to give us one of the great unexpected afternoons in championship history. In doing so they ensured that the provincial football champions of 2020 are the same as of a hundred years ago. But the reminder of the past provided by the new Munster and Ulster kingpins goes deeper than that. On a weekend when the GAA acknowledged the importance of history and tradition, Cavan and Tipperary provided a timely reminder of the abiding value of the provincial championships. The idea that these competitions are outmoded has gained traction in recent years. That's largely because the Leinster Championship has been rendered meaningless by Dublin's dominance. But why punish three provinces to serve one? Elsewhere, things are vibrant and competitive. Cavan are the fourth different county to win Ulster in six years. Connacht has had three different victors in a row and no repeat winner since 2015. And two weeks after the notion of Munster as Kerry walkover was dynamited, Tipperary have shown it's more than just a Kingdom-Rebels closed shop. The provincial championships don't just have tradition on their side. They also provide an invaluable opportunity, in an era of unparalleled Dublin hegemony, for teams to win something meaningful. Given the inevitability of Dublin lifting the Sam Maguire, they may never have been more important. Michael Hogan 3 Michael Hogan Tipperary would hardly have been so jubilant about winning a Tier 2 final or Cavan about qualifying for the Super 8s. So what about Leinster? Perhaps it's time to move some of its counties elsewhere. Longford and Westmeath might be energised by a stint in Connacht while others could add extra depth to Munster. Hardly a perfect idea but it beats ruling out the possibility of any more historic victories like yesterday's. Scrapping the provincial championships is a stupid idea whose time will hopefully never come. But the GAA has already signed up to an even stupider one. Yesterday was the most compelling proof possible that they should scrap the two-tier championship. Why? Because under the new system Division 3 teams will be excluded from the main competition unless they reach their provincial finals. Yet both Tipperary and Cavan are Division 3 teams. Can anything be dafter than insisting they don't belong on the same pitch as the teams they beat yesterday? It's true that reaching the provincial final would have prevented their exclusion but they shouldn't be in danger of this in the first place. Had Cavan and Tipperary not scored injury-time equalisers against Monaghan and Limerick, they'd be judged too weak to play against the likes of Clare, Westmeath and Laois never mind Donegal and Cork. The two-tier championship is an obnoxious affront to the spirit of the GAA. Those gullible enough to believe Croke Park's insistence that the second-tier competition won't be just an afterthought should observe the fate of hurling's secondary championships. The McDonagh, Ring, Rackard and Meagher Cups struggle to get their results read out on RTÉ let alone receive any actual coverage. The second-tier championship will be the dustbin of inter-county football. Is that where these magnificent Tipperary and Cavan teams belong? Tipperary's first Munster title since 1935 is up there with Clare's win in 1992 and the Leinster breakthroughs by Kildare in 1998, Laois in 2003 and Westmeath in 2004. They said such victories were impossible these days, though it's only seven years since Monaghan bridged a 25-year gap in Ulster. Yet here we are the morning after a day when Tipperary beating Cork wasn't even the biggest shock. Donegal were 1/14 favourites against Cavan whose manager Mickey Graham has now accomplished two miracles in two-and-a-half years. He also managed the Mullinalaghta team which were given even less chance before beating Kilmacud in the 2018 Leinster club final. So much for foregone conclusions. The two-tier idea has no basis in reality. It's based on a championship of the imagination where there are clearly defined haves and have nots as in English soccer. But the most obvious tier, and the one with the greatest gap below it, is that which contains Dublin. Cavan boss Mickey Graham celebrates. Photo: Sportsfile 3 Cavan boss Mickey Graham celebrates. Photo: Sportsfile Only three or four counties at most inhabit the next rung and that includes Kerry, who lost to Cork who lost to Tipperary, and Donegal who were well beaten by Cavan yesterday. There's not enough difference from number four to number 24 to argue that the latter aren't entitled to play the former. Only a handful of counties are hopelessly adrift. Just three games in this year's championship have been decided by more than 15 points and two of those have been games between Dublin and 'top-tier' opposition. The Meath team the Dubs humiliated are supposed to be among the game's elite, having participated in last year's Super 8s. Complacency Those damaged most by the idea that an eight-team elite exists may be the teams who are supposed to belong in it. The complacency it instilled in Cork and Donegal and the false hope it gave Meath were clear to see this weekend. Tipperary and Cavan on the other hand were kept honest by Division 4 teams in the earlier rounds. The championship's great appeal is its democracy. It is not the Champions League. Of course, the exception to it all are Dublin. Their rule is close to intolerable but will not be remedied by pretending that Donegal and Cork inhabit a different universe from Cavan and Tipperary. David Power, Mickey Graham and their marvellous whole-hearted players have done the GAA a big favour by reminding it that questions of status should be decided on the pitch and not by working groups and reports. Bloody Sunday isn't the only part of its past the Association needs to remember.
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Post by southward on Nov 30, 2020 14:33:13 GMT
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Nov 30, 2020 14:36:05 GMT
"No further details have emerged." That's great, isn't it?
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Post by clarinman on Nov 30, 2020 17:02:58 GMT
"No further details have emerged." That's great, isn't it? According to the Irish Times on Friday, the sending off was for abuse of a linesman. This is a black card offence. The ref made an error in giving a red card if this is the case.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Nov 30, 2020 17:31:12 GMT
"No further details have emerged." That's great, isn't it? According to the Irish Times on Friday, the sending off was for abuse of a linesman. This is a black card offence. The ref made an error in giving a red card if this is the case. That would make sense and not a shocker.
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Post by taibhse on Nov 30, 2020 17:40:34 GMT
According to the Irish Times on Friday, the sending off was for abuse of a linesman. This is a black card offence. The ref made an error in giving a red card if this is the case. That would make sense and not a shocker. He has to be the worst referee in the country. Operates to his own set of rules. He screwed Kerry properly in the Cork game.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Nov 30, 2020 19:04:28 GMT
That would make sense and not a shocker. He has to be the worst referee in the country. Operates to his own set of rules. He screwed Kerry properly in the Cork game. I can't say I noticed. Kerry shouldn't have let the ref have any say in that game.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Nov 30, 2020 19:30:38 GMT
Officials can return emotional compliments too with spur of the moment calls.
Gearoid Hegarty stopped in his tracks going through on goal was also interesting. Just what have authoritarians against our clan? Maybe that's where I went wrong - I didn't bate the *e of a few laddos but then again I didn't hurl, well not yet anyway.
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Post by givehimaball on Nov 30, 2020 22:06:19 GMT
Am i correct in saying that this journo is not informed about Tier 2 proposal. It seems that he has a confused/incomplete understanding of what the Tier 2 championship will look like. To be fair he's not alone in this. Far too many people heard "Tier 2 championship" and were immediately outraged about the idea, before they even looked at the actual details. What it actually is is a Tier 2 Qualifer Championship. These teams can still win their provincial championships, can still get to the Super 8s and can still win Sam if they perform in a year. However instead of the previous situation where they would go into the qualifiers and the number of games they got would massively depend on how soon they got drawn against Division 1 and Division 2 opposition before going out under the Tier 2 system they will have an increased number of competitive games against teams of a fairly similar level with the possibility of silverware. The clincher for me is that when this was debated before and at Congress it seemed to have a majority of support from the players who will be affected by it. Also some of the opposition around then was fairly weak with some people saying that RTE would provide decent coverage [which is probably true but it's not as if RTE were providing top class coverage to the Qualifiers as it was and also there's nothing stopping RTE from making it a condition of getting the rights to other games to say they must broadcast the final (although I'd say TG4 would be falling over themselves for the rights to broadcast a few of these Tier 2 games if they could) Another objection I heard was people saying that there would be a similar situation to the Tommy Murphy Cup wereby players would play in the provincial championships and then jet off to the US when their county was knocked out of the provincial championship, when the GAA changed the rules so that a county player can't get a transfer in these conditions - they must wait until their county's season has come to an end before a transfer can be sanctioned. www.gaa.ie/news-archive/news/tier-2-championship-proposal-confirmed/While writing this I got curious about how the 14 teams who would have be in the Tailteann Cup this year got on in the qualifiers last year. [By rights I should have looked at the teams who would have been in the Tailteann Cup last year but I only realised this as just I was finishing up and I'm too lazy to go back and redo things especially as the vast majority of the teams would have been the same anyway] The 14 teams who would have been in the Tailteann Cup if it had been run this year are Waterford, Limerick, Carlow, Offaly, Wexford, Wicklow, Louth, Longford, Leitrim, Sligo, Antrim, Fermanagh, Derry, London In last year's qualifiers Waterford played 1 game and lost to non Tier 2 opposition. Limerick played 1 game and lost to non Tier 2 opposition. Carlow played 1 game and lost to Tier 2 opposition. Offaly played 3 games. The two games they won were against Tier 2 opposition. The game they lost was to non Tier 2 opposition. Wexford played 1 game and lost to Tier 2 opposition. Wicklow played 1 game and lost to Tier 2 opposition. Louth played 1 game and lost to Tier 2 opposition. Longford played 2 games. The game they won was against Tier 2 opposition.The game they lost was to non Tier 2 opposition. Leitrim played 2 games. The game they won was against Tier 2 opposition.The game they lost was to non Tier 2 opposition. Sligo played 1 game and lost to Tier 2 opposition. Antrim played 2 games. The game they won was against Tier 2 opposition.The game they lost was to non Tier 2 opposition. Fermanagh played 1 game and lost to non Tier 2 opposition. Derry played 2 games. The game they won was against Tier 2 opposition.The game they lost was to non Tier 2 opposition. London played 1 game and lost to Tier 2 opposition. 20 games played. 6 wins. No wins against Non Tier 2 opposition. If the Tailteann Cup had been played this year the 14 teams would have 26 games played with 13 match winners. [For the purpose of this I'm counting a situation where Offaly played London as 2 games.Possibly it would be more accurate to say that there would have been only 13 matches involving the 14 teams under the new system. However the way I see it when London played Offaly the London players got 70 minutes and Offaly players got 70 minutes of football. Under the 2019 system the players from the 14 teams got (20 games by 70 minutes) 1400 minutes of championship football, whereas under the Tailteann Cup they would have got (26 games by 70 minutes) 1820 minutes of championship football, which is an increase of 30 percent. I haven't the time and inclination to do this over a number of years (check how teams who would be playing in the Tailteann Tier 2 Qualifiers Cup if it had been in existence got on in the qualifiers) but from looking at the results of Division 4 and Division 3 teams over the years, I would be very surprised if things weren't fairly similar to the results above.
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Post by givehimaball on Nov 30, 2020 22:39:06 GMT
"No further details have emerged." That's great, isn't it? According to the Irish Times on Friday, the sending off was for abuse of a linesman. This is a black card offence. The ref made an error in giving a red card if this is the case. If you go to the GAA website and click on the Rules and Regulation link at the bottom of the page and then clink on 2020 GAA Official Guide - Part 2, you will be able to find all the following rules on pages 85,86 and 88 Black Card Offence Category 3 - Red Card Offence Category 5 - Red Card Offence He clearly didn't remonstrate with the linesman in an agressive manner so rule 5.13 doesn't come into play at all. From the footage and all the reports, it was all to do with something he said so would fall under either 5.14, 5.20 or 5.34 I would imagine that Dublin claimed that Costello's comments were aimed at the Meath player and that as a result is should have been a black card as opposed to a red card offence. Basically saying it was a 5.14 offence and not a 5.20 or 5.34 offence. The advantage of this approach from Dublin's point of view is that unless Costello specifically said "linesman" or used the linesman's name, it would be almost impossible for the GAA to prove that he was referring to the linesman when he was doling out the abuse and not the Meath player. However it's clear from the rulebook that if something was said to the linesman it would fall under either 5.20 e.g. "F off linesman" or 5.34 - "F off and die linesman" and the correct sanction is a red card and not a black card. Moran's article in the Irish Times is very poor - "speaking out of turn" is clearly not the same as "remonstrating in an aggressive manner" It's one thing for a member of the public to show such poor reading comprehension but for a journalist who deals with words on a daily basis it's really embarrrassing. The fact that he makes no mention of Rule 5.14 or Rule 5.20 over further demonstrates his lack of knowledge in relation to the rules. www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/cormac-costello-available-to-face-cavan-after-successful-appeal-of-red-card-1.4421671#:~:text=Dublin%20forward%20Cormac%20Costello%20has,that%20went%20over%20the%20sideline.
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Post by Mickmack on Nov 30, 2020 23:09:46 GMT
givehimaball. Thanks for all that information. The Tier 2 is widely midunderstood by the looks of things and the likes of Eamon Sweeney doesnt help.
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