mandad
Senior Member
Posts: 448
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Post by mandad on Aug 28, 2020 7:47:51 GMT
I was expecting this debate to kick off, so I will do so myself:
The water break, midway through the half, has been identified as having an impact on the trend of the game and there does seem to be evidence that supports this assertion. From the outset of this temporary arrangement, I personally thought that it was something that was a marked improvement on the previous situation whereby the Maor Uisce was annoyingly and almost continuously on the pitch and occasionally affecting play.
If one were to accept that this new water break arrangement is a disadvantage to the team with the momentum and affords the opposition an opportunity to re-organise, my question would be, is this a good or bad thing and in some way unfair or undesirable?
Having posed the question, it is only fair that I offer a personal opinion. It is not as straight forward as one might first think. Anything that impedes the momentum of a team playing well and that they have fairly established at any stage in a half has to be regarded as unfair to them. The opponents will, of course, be glad of the opportunity to regroup and reorganise – which is the main focus of the argument. On balance, I favour this new arrangement as I think it is likely to give us closer and therefore, more enjoyable games. I am very open to dissenting opinions.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 28, 2020 7:53:08 GMT
A fair question for you Mandad is: is the half-time break fair?
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 28, 2020 8:48:57 GMT
This is an easy one for me.
The water boy thing was abused by some teams and ended up being a blight on the game.
Teams will adapt to the water break.
It has made for better games in my view as the momentum swings back and forth.
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Post by clubman on Aug 28, 2020 8:51:19 GMT
I think its a silly rule and most of the players ive spoken to tend to agree. Its not like we are playing in Dubai and I dont recall any players struggling to get water onboard previously. Im sure theres some good reasoning behind it but its not for me. I thought this was very interesting and no doubt will happen again, fair play to the ref for playing away punditarena.com/gaa/smcmahon/water-break-goal-antrim-gaa-1/ |
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 28, 2020 8:59:41 GMT
I think its a silly rule and most of the players ive spoken to tend to agree. Its not like we are playing in Dubai and I dont recall any players struggling to get water onboard previously. Im sure theres some good reasoning behind it but its not for me. I thought this was very interesting and no doubt will happen again, fair play to the ref for playing away punditarena.com/gaa/smcmahon/water-break-goal-antrim-gaa-1/It's to do with sharing bottles during the covid. |
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mandad
Senior Member
Posts: 448
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Post by mandad on Aug 28, 2020 9:06:28 GMT
A fair question for you Mandad is: is the half-time break fair? My first thought in that respect would be that you want the players to be able to perform to close to their optimum for the entire duration of what is still an amateur game. Therefore, it is essential to have a mid-game break at least. One could make an argument for shortening it up but I don’t see any huge issue with 15 minutes duration. With all the back-up that is now available to management in real-time, counties with busloads of analysts, etc., are advantaged over the less endowed in this area. In that respect, being able to get all your players together on the sideline after approx 15-20 minutes of play and crystallise the areas that matter is something of substance that has not been debated or decided on heretofore. Most managers can get their troops matched up in the lead up to games – very few have the ability to do so on the hoof. |
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Post by clubman on Aug 28, 2020 9:09:02 GMT
I think its a silly rule and most of the players ive spoken to tend to agree. Its not like we are playing in Dubai and I dont recall any players struggling to get water onboard previously. Im sure theres some good reasoning behind it but its not for me. I thought this was very interesting and no doubt will happen again, fair play to the ref for playing away punditarena.com/gaa/smcmahon/water-break-goal-antrim-gaa-1/It's to do with sharing bottles during the covid. Thats fair enough, i thought the rule was introduced before covid came on the scene |
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 28, 2020 9:19:18 GMT
A fair question for you Mandad is: is the half-time break fair? My first thought in that respect would be that you want the players to be able to perform to close to their optimum for the entire duration of what is still an amateur game. Therefore, it is essential to have a mid-game break at least. One could make an argument for shortening it up but I don’t see any huge issue with 15 minutes duration. With all the back-up that is now available to management in real-time, counties with busloads of analysts, etc., are advantaged over the less endowed in this area. In that respect, being able to get all your players together on the sideline after approx 15-20 minutes of play and crystallise the areas that matter is something of substance that has not been debated or decided on heretofore. Most managers can get their troops matched up in the lead up to games – very few have the ability to do so on the hoof. I think your argument holds water for the water break too. Maybe it should be a one minute break? |
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Post by dc84 on Aug 28, 2020 9:25:00 GMT
Are you starting a discussion on whether we should keep the water break post covid?
Its something players will have to get used to it will be here for at the very minimum another year. Its interesting how much of an impqct it is having
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mandad
Senior Member
Posts: 448
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Post by mandad on Aug 28, 2020 9:32:41 GMT
Maor Uisce was more than just the water carrier; he also conveyed tactical and motivational messages to players. All acceptable perhaps, but an unacceptable offshoot was demonstrated in the drawn match against when Dublin were reduced to 14. Jason Sherlock, I think it was, located himself beside the unmarked Kerry player, thereby creating the impression that all Kerry players were marked up. Being legitimately entitled to access the pitch, as he did, enable him to do that. That type of incident may even have influenced the change a little bit and yes, it may well continue when we get back to “normal”.
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Post by dc84 on Aug 28, 2020 9:47:54 GMT
He wasnt the first at that! Our own lad from killorglin was guilty of that aswell! I firmly believe only players and medical personnel should be allowed on the pitch there was way too much hassle with this previously sure wasnt paul galvin sent off in 06 vs Armagh for fighting with a maor uisce. Surely players should be able to think for themselves on the pitch way too much "tactical advice" going on
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Post by Ballyfireside on Aug 28, 2020 12:46:05 GMT
A fair question for you Mandad is: is the half-time break fair? My first thought in that respect would be that you want the players to be able to perform to close to their optimum for the entire duration of what is still an amateur game. Therefore, it is essential to have a mid-game break at least. One could make an argument for shortening it up but I don’t see any huge issue with 15 minutes duration. With all the back-up that is now available to management in real-time, counties with busloads of analysts, etc., are advantaged over the less endowed in this area. In that respect, being able to get all your players together on the sideline after approx 15-20 minutes of play and crystallise the areas that matter is something of substance that has not been debated or decided on heretofore. Most managers can get their troops matched up in the lead up to games – very few have the ability to do so on the hoof. Good point there Mandad re a key factor that often distinguishes the great manger from good ones. It is probably up there with the greatest challenges as he has to read the game plan of the opposition on the day and then reformulate his own to best counter any threats. Of course the opposing manager will be doing the same, psyching each other out. While that all sounds daunting 'the bark might be worse than the bite' and managers will have narrowed it down somewhat and then there is the notion that once the ball is thrown in, it is down to the players. It would be a good topic for someone with management experience to shed light on for us here - someone who succeeded at Club level would have a good idea of what county management might be like. Those of us who couldn't manage mice at a crossroads would appreciate such input at a point when we have time to talk. |
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Post by onlykerry on Aug 28, 2020 14:00:57 GMT
A simpler question is - if its a water break with the purpose of preventing dehydration during a game should the manager or selectors be allowed join the group during this period or not. Should it be a grab water and go or left become a pep talk.
It is supposed to be a quick 1 minute interlude for water I believe - why not have 3 water points either side and each team goes to the same side but refuel at the nearest table. Speeds it up and keeps the game moving.
Next thing that will happen is TV will demand they stay and are lengthened so they can squeeze in a few ads..... TV always gets heard
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Post by buck02 on Aug 28, 2020 14:10:52 GMT
A simpler question is - if its a water break with the purpose of preventing dehydration during a game should the manager or selectors be allowed join the group during this period or not. Should it be a grab water and go or left become a pep talk. It is supposed to be a quick 1 minute interlude for water I believe - why not have 3 water points either side and each team goes to the same side but refuel at the nearest table. Speeds it up and keeps the game moving.
Next thing that will happen is TV will demand they stay and are lengthened so they can squeeze in a few ads..... TV always gets heard It was brought in cos players cannot share water bottles. So you cant have water points where every players takes a slug out of the nearest bottle. My main problem with it is that if you are the far corner of the pitch to where your dugout is, you have to run 80 or 90m to get your drink, then 80 or 90m back to your position or find where your man is - you might need another drink after that! |
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 28, 2020 15:44:48 GMT
No one is talking about it as a momentum shifter. Templenoe were on the ropes but won the 'final quarter' v Dingle.
Same happened in one of the hurling QFs.
It has made for competitive games ...why i am not sure. They both only drink water dont they??
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Post by Ballyfireside on Aug 29, 2020 0:36:16 GMT
My first thought in that respect would be that you want the players to be able to perform to close to their optimum for the entire duration of what is still an amateur game. Therefore, it is essential to have a mid-game break at least. One could make an argument for shortening it up but I don’t see any huge issue with 15 minutes duration. With all the back-up that is now available to management in real-time, counties with busloads of analysts, etc., are advantaged over the less endowed in this area. In that respect, being able to get all your players together on the sideline after approx 15-20 minutes of play and crystallise the areas that matter is something of substance that has not been debated or decided on heretofore. Most managers can get their troops matched up in the lead up to games – very few have the ability to do so on the hoof. Good point there Mandad re a key factor that often distinguishes the great manger from good ones. It is probably up there with the greatest challenges as he has to read the game plan of the opposition on the day and then reformulate his own to best counter any threats. Of course the opposing manager will be doing the same, psyching each other out. While that all sounds daunting 'the bark might be worse than the bite' and managers will have narrowed it down somewhat and then there is the notion that once the ball is thrown in, it is down to the players. It would be a good topic for someone with management experience to shed light on for us here - someone who succeeded at Club level would have a good idea of what county management might be like. Those of us who couldn't manage mice at a crossroads would appreciate such input at a point when we have time to talk. So let's take 'baby steps' re Manager - let's start with the match day team, where fellas are actually positioned 60 secs into the game - thinking AI final 2014 I feel a bit like Micheal Collins on this one, i.e. signing his own death warrant. Anyway - AO'M on Murphy, JO'D on NMcG or NMcG on JO'D (JMcG didn't/couldn't correct?), PM on 'Hat-trickster' RMcH .. KD (eyes) on P Durcan, body elsewhere? Incidentally (or not) these re the wans that worked for us. Going to the opposite side of de equation, McGuinness takes of young Jigger - jazus I smiled - Jig had nearly sealed the deal for 'em a 1 min before - and then we deplored the man who won Sam at his first attempt, so for anyone fancying 'the job', try that for size! PS Now I'm only a hurler on the ditch, don't shoot the messanger, ye'll be looking at me from both sides now! |
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Post by himself on Aug 30, 2020 9:26:28 GMT
I don't like it. A huge momentum shifter. I certainly think players need a break at half-time but not every quarter. I take the point about sharing water bottles but why not have each player place his own water bottle near his own position on the sideline so that he can reach it easily.Or else have mini-bottles scattered around the sidelines - there's currently 10 for E2 in Lidl. If the seal is broken, it's been used.
Mind you, I never bought a water bottle in my entire life - we would just wash a 7Up/Coke bottle and use that. Granted, I never played at the higher levels!
I find that the amount of time used in the water break leads to confusion around how much time is actually left at the end of the half. The clock should be stopped for the water break - the time used up varies from one to three minutes (I gathered that referees are advised to add two minutes, but it's very arbitrary at the moment. Note that it's 'advice', not a directive. I remember the GAA issuing a directive to referees about longer injury times in 2016. The first game it was applied was the Kerry v Limerick Junior game in 2016 - Kerry got a goal five minutes into injury time by Adrian Spillane for a narrow win. Limerick juniors were justifiably furious, and it looked grossly unfair on them. I only found out about the Directive when I made enquiries after the game - that kind of info should be published on the GAA website.
American sports are played in four quarters to optimise tv advertising, but I expect that's not a factor.
On the wider topic of management startegy that has been raised - this nonsense of not naming match panels and naming false teams is an absolute disgrace, no matter whether its Kerry or Dublin or anybody else. I despise it.
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 30, 2020 9:37:01 GMT
Its precicely because its a huge momentum shifter that i like it. We differ on that one 'himself'.
The only game that i have watched live from Kerry where the momentum didnt shift was in the Brendans v Legion game.
Twas as if the Brendans management had warned their team to be ready for it....
what happened...Two bullets to the head from Jack and Duarmaid straight after the water break.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 30, 2020 14:45:39 GMT
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Post by southward on Aug 30, 2020 20:26:13 GMT
Why, on seeing the headline, did I immediately think "David Gough"? |
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 31, 2020 2:57:41 GMT
Why, on seeing the headline, did I immediately think "David Gough"? Because he is the best ref out there? |
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Post by onlykerry on Aug 31, 2020 9:32:36 GMT
A simpler question is - if its a water break with the purpose of preventing dehydration during a game should the manager or selectors be allowed join the group during this period or not. Should it be a grab water and go or left become a pep talk. It is supposed to be a quick 1 minute interlude for water I believe - why not have 3 water points either side and each team goes to the same side but refuel at the nearest table. Speeds it up and keeps the game moving.
Next thing that will happen is TV will demand they stay and are lengthened so they can squeeze in a few ads..... TV always gets heard It was brought in cos players cannot share water bottles. So you cant have water points where every players takes a slug out of the nearest bottle. My main problem with it is that if you are the far corner of the pitch to where your dugout is, you have to run 80 or 90m to get your drink, then 80 or 90m back to your position or find where your man is - you might need another drink after that! Understand that but simplest thing is to have small single use water bottles - think this is what some sides are using anyway. Three tables either side only means 5/6 bottles per table and would speed up the water break while making it less of an impact on the game. My main point however was that management don't need to be in attendance for the water break and it can easily be prevented from becoming a pep talk and reorgainsing session. |
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 31, 2020 11:53:57 GMT
God life was so simple when all you have to do was take a slug out of Stephen oNeills bottle
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Post by southward on Aug 31, 2020 20:10:10 GMT
Why, on seeing the headline, did I immediately think "David Gough"? Because he is the best ref out there? That must be it, yeah. |
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