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Post by john4 on Apr 1, 2020 8:30:32 GMT
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Post by An Bradán on Apr 2, 2020 8:28:33 GMT
China also has the "advantage" of being a police state and was able to lock down the country more effectively than any Western democracy could. If they aren't ready to restart then (unless a miracle cure comes along) we won't be either for a long time. It's over for 2020. B.t.w. how do you mute a poster on this forum ?
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Post by buck02 on Apr 2, 2020 10:37:59 GMT
China also has the "advantage" of being a police state and was able to lock down the country more effectively than any Western democracy could. If they aren't ready to restart then (unless a miracle cure comes along) we won't be either for a long time. It's over for 2020. B.t.w. how do you mute a poster on this forum ? There is a message from Annascaul on this thread that describes how to mute somebody kerrygaa.proboards.com/thread/2598/forum-queries-updates?page=5
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mandad
Senior Member
Posts: 448
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Post by mandad on Apr 2, 2020 16:53:18 GMT
In these difficult times, our job as the older generation is to keep out of the way and by doing that to minimise the demands we make on Health Services and others. This is clearly beginning to include foregoing medical treatments we might need: but it’s for the greater good we are told.
Already, I miss my twice-daily walks and my grandchildren visits; I miss the banter over a few pints at the weekend and the freedom to do pretty much all those mundane things we take for granted - until they're gone. Most of all I miss all genres of sports. Yes, I long for those boring routines, which in hindsight were comforting in their predictability. Not sure what I will do for a haircut, though. I may have to use an elastic band.
Do you know what used to annoy me? The anti-vaxxers with their alarmism, false claims, and pseudo-science. Not to mention their selfishness and failure to acknowledge the only reason they weren't coming down with horrible diseases was that everyone else was doing the right thing. And suddenly they've all gone very, very quiet. But they will be back; after they emerge from hiding from the corona virus, they will quickly re-assert themselves.
My old mate Joe was back on the phone again this week. He wanted to know how I felt about how doctors are prioritizing the young over the older people who are less likely to recover. “ In a crisis like this, hospitals try to maximize the chance of saving a life and make sure that we save the most years of life,” he said. “Was I happy about it?” he wanted to know. The liberal-minded old friend Joe was forcing me to think about it.
Put like that, this is a sobering thought for someone of my generation. Is there a trade-off between young and old? Should there be one? It is a deeply moral question. In the past, our faith would have provided the guide as it has done for generations. Now? Faith isn't popular anymore. Am I happy about it? Sure as hell I’m not.
Joe had one final parting shot, “Why not lock us all old folks on fancy Cruise Ships, sailing the high seas without being allowed to make port.” he says to me. “After all our years of working and paying our taxes, and your life doesn’t belong to you, it belongs to the State!” Gas man Joe!
Yes, plagues are great levelers. They blur the usual distinctions between rich and poor, but not between young and old it seems. But I’ll leave that for another sermon! Stay safe.
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Post by john4 on Apr 2, 2020 17:46:48 GMT
In these difficult times, our job as the older generation is to keep out of the way and by doing that to minimise the demands we make on Health Services and others. This is clearly beginning to include foregoing medical treatments we might need: but it’s for the greater good we are told. Already, I miss my twice-daily walks and my grandchildren visits; I miss the banter over a few pints at the weekend and the freedom to do pretty much all those mundane things we take for granted - until they're gone. Most of all I miss all genres of sports. Yes, I long for those boring routines, which in hindsight were comforting in their predictability. Not sure what I will do for a haircut, though. I may have to use an elastic band. Do you know what used to annoy me? The anti-vaxxers with their alarmism, false claims, and pseudo-science. Not to mention their selfishness and failure to acknowledge the only reason they weren't coming down with horrible diseases was that everyone else was doing the right thing. And suddenly they've all gone very, very quiet. But they will be back; after they emerge from hiding from the corona virus, they will quickly re-assert themselves. My old mate Joe was back on the phone again this week. He wanted to know how I felt about how doctors are prioritizing the young over the older people who are less likely to recover. “ In a crisis like this, hospitals try to maximize the chance of saving a life and make sure that we save the most years of life,” he said. “Was I happy about it?” he wanted to know. The liberal-minded old friend Joe was forcing me to think about it. Put like that, this is a sobering thought for someone of my generation. Is there a trade-off between young and old? Should there be one? It is a deeply moral question. In the past, our faith would have provided the guide as it has done for generations. Now? Faith isn't popular anymore. Am I happy about it? Sure as hell I’m not. Joe had one final parting shot, “Why not lock us all old folks on fancy Cruise Ships, sailing the high seas without being allowed to make port.” he says to me. “After all our years of working and paying our taxes, and your life doesn’t belong to you, it belongs to the State!” Gas man Joe! Yes, plagues are great levelers. They blur the usual distinctions between rich and poor, but not between young and old it seems. But I’ll leave that for another sermon! Stay safe. Excellent post as always. Spare a thought though for those of us who have more elastic bands than we need 😉
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Post by Ballyfireside on Apr 2, 2020 18:48:19 GMT
In these difficult times, our job as the older generation is to keep out of the way and by doing that to minimise the demands we make on Health Services and others. This is clearly beginning to include foregoing medical treatments we might need: but it’s for the greater good we are told. Already, I miss my twice-daily walks and my grandchildren visits; I miss the banter over a few pints at the weekend and the freedom to do pretty much all those mundane things we take for granted - until they're gone. Most of all I miss all genres of sports. Yes, I long for those boring routines, which in hindsight were comforting in their predictability. Not sure what I will do for a haircut, though. I may have to use an elastic band. Do you know what used to annoy me? The anti-vaxxers with their alarmism, false claims, and pseudo-science. Not to mention their selfishness and failure to acknowledge the only reason they weren't coming down with horrible diseases was that everyone else was doing the right thing. And suddenly they've all gone very, very quiet. But they will be back; after they emerge from hiding from the corona virus, they will quickly re-assert themselves. My old mate Joe was back on the phone again this week. He wanted to know how I felt about how doctors are prioritizing the young over the older people who are less likely to recover. “ In a crisis like this, hospitals try to maximize the chance of saving a life and make sure that we save the most years of life,” he said. “Was I happy about it?” he wanted to know. The liberal-minded old friend Joe was forcing me to think about it. Put like that, this is a sobering thought for someone of my generation. Is there a trade-off between young and old? Should there be one? It is a deeply moral question. In the past, our faith would have provided the guide as it has done for generations. Now? Faith isn't popular anymore. Am I happy about it? Sure as hell I’m not. Joe had one final parting shot, “Why not lock us all old folks on fancy Cruise Ships, sailing the high seas without being allowed to make port.” he says to me. “After all our years of working and paying our taxes, and your life doesn’t belong to you, it belongs to the State!” Gas man Joe! Yes, plagues are great levelers. They blur the usual distinctions between rich and poor, but not between young and old it seems. But I’ll leave that for another sermon! Stay safe. Excellent post as always. Spare a thought though for those of us who have more elastic bands than we need 😉 Now there's a novel idea - how will we cut your hair? Shears and a beard trimmer, we will all be baldies then! As regards Mandad and hospitals, they are telling us that we need to start reusing them for non-virus related ailments, apparently nobody wants to go near them, mise included. Funny Microsoft's Billeen Gates told us in 2016 that the next war would be a virus, but nobody listened, probably to do with election cycle, 'circle of concern' they called it when they tried to educate me - how many votes would a politician get for preventing a virus from taking hold, he'd get more kicks where the sun don't shine. Old story of the enemy within, that self-destruct button, man is the only species smart enough to eradicate man. Ah there's a few more dirty shorts in us as a doctor used to tell an old pal of mine, I wonder if life will change, will we begin to appreciate what we have, I sense we might in the short term but then we will be back to the same auld crack, yerra life is good too and will be even better when the stolen property that is Sam is returned to it's rightful owners, renewal of annual property title - last time I put it like that the solicitors went to sue we as they thought I was talking about what they stole!
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 3, 2020 11:39:29 GMT
The 82 year old man in Sligo that walked out of the hospital today after having Covid 19 is heartening to see.
Lots of over 70s on ventillators in a Dublin hospital i am told and many recover.
On the jobs hit in the USA i thought this was interesting.
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Post by Galway breeze on Apr 4, 2020 9:41:56 GMT
Not confirmed but it does look like another two to three weeks of home isolation. Many clubs will find themselves under high financial strain. When this is all over Croke Park will have to subsidise clubs to keep them afloat. After all it is the members and volunteers that keep GAA ticking.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 12:06:14 GMT
And the best way of subsidising the clubs is via the inter county game which seems to be lost on some
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Post by Ballyfireside on Apr 4, 2020 14:54:47 GMT
Waz just watchin '14 replay vs Mayo, still as exciting as the day itself and a v welcome distraction.
'Is this the end of the road for this Mayo team?' rang a bell!
Seeing DB there has me wondering if Donie's stints in other counties was a factor in how things ended?
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Post by john4 on Apr 4, 2020 16:16:46 GMT
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Post by goonised on Apr 4, 2020 17:23:42 GMT
Not confirmed but it does look like another two to three weeks of home isolation. Many clubs will find themselves under high financial strain. When this is all over Croke Park will have to subsidise clubs to keep them afloat. After all it is the members and volunteers that keep GAA ticking. What expenses are clubs incurring?. We are about 12 weeks from getting back to some semblance of normality. Shops re opening getting back to work etc. It will be 2021 before clubs back playing.
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Post by jackiel on Apr 4, 2020 19:05:18 GMT
I can only speak for my own club, we have loans to pay back for development,VAT, affiliations, insurance. There are also payments for regular expenses like cleaning and supplies,team equipment and pitch maintenance etc. There's also my salary as full time admin and they're paying the difference between the Covid payment and our bar managers wages. The wage payments will only be paid in the short term as a good will gesture.I'm working from home for now and dread the thought of being laid off fully. Lets hope you're wrong and the shut down wont be anything like 12 more weeks.
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Post by goonised on Apr 4, 2020 21:21:47 GMT
I can only speak for my own club, we have loans to pay back for development,VAT, affiliations, insurance. There are also payments for regular expenses like cleaning and supplies,team equipment and pitch maintenance etc. There's also my salary as full time admin and they're paying the difference between the Covid payment and our bar managers wages. The wage payments will only be paid in the short term as a good will gesture.I'm working from home for now and dread the thought of being laid off fully. Lets hope you're wrong and the shut down wont be anything like 12 more weeks. Ok maybe Im missing something here but my understanding is that all clubs grounds are closed. No entry. So no costs being incurred. Ok if have a bar it different story. Wages are I presume an employer employee issue. I hope I'm wrong too about the 12 weeks but that is the likelihood.
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Post by jackiel on Apr 5, 2020 17:16:11 GMT
Yes everything is closed but there is heat and power at a minimum usage to keep everything in good order,also cost of alarm monitoring etc. The loan repayments must still be met and scheduled payments must be made. There is no income at present as our lotto draw has been suspended for now, sales cannot be made in pubs etc.
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Post by rollingstone on Apr 6, 2020 9:17:31 GMT
... Do you know what used to annoy me? The anti-vaxxers with their alarmism, false claims, and pseudo-science. Not to mention their selfishness and failure to acknowledge the only reason they weren't coming down with horrible diseases was that everyone else was doing the right thing. And suddenly they've all gone very, very quiet. But they will be back; after they emerge from hiding from the corona virus, they will quickly re-assert themselves.... I do realise that this is a GAA website but we are now discussing many non GAA related matters that affect all of our lives so I do hope Control allows this to be seen. The only bad debate in my opinion is the one that does not take place. I hope the readers find some of this info of interest and if anyone wants any direction to some of the information I have come across, then please PM me. Mandad, I really enjoy your posts as they’re very enlightening and brilliantly written but I cannot leave this statement go unchallenged. In this post I make wide reference to the statistics from the USA as they are easily verifiable and it is the most highly vaccinated country in the developed world yet has the sickest population which I will expand on throughout the below. I use it to illustrate where we could end up if we follow their lead, like we do with most things. I would be what you term an “anti-vaxxer” although I think the more accurate description is someone who wants safe vaccines. I think we can all agree that we want safe vaccines as in any other medication. Unfortunately, vaccines are not subject to the same safety standards as other medicines which is why I have concerns on their ever-increasing use. I am the parent of a child who was injured by a vaccine but fortunately is long since recovered and have several friends with similar and much worse experiences. I have been researching vaccines for years and they are not the risk-free miracle cure to everything as is portrayed by big pharma and as with any drug, they come with risks and side effects. These side effects are listed within the insert of any vaccine but yet I have never had a single doctor talk me through these risks, ever. Your statement fails on a number of levels but if I take each in turn. Alarmism and selfishness
I don’t think there is anything wrong with anyone knowing exactly what they are putting into their bodies, it is called informed consent and this doctrine can be traced back to the crimes of the Nazis in WW2. Following the Nuremberg Trials, the Nuremberg Code was agreed which set in international the law the right to informed consent. This means nobody can be forced to participate in human experiments. All participants must understand the potential risks and these risks must be fully explained to a participant and the exact same principle applies to the taking of any drugs. This is especially pertinent when we talk of a potential COVID19 vaccine. In the rush to get a vaccine ready, animal trials have been skipped and they have gone straight to human trials. If and when the vaccine is ready, remember that point and note if anyone informs you of it. If you want to take the vaccine then go ahead but do not call me selfish for declining it out of genuine concern for its safety risks. Further, would it be alarmist of me to point out that in the US, big pharma has been fully exempt from any liability for vaccine related injuries since the 1980s and that the US taxpayer funds any compensation claims by way of the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program – yes that’s correct, the US taxpayer pays out on behalf of big pharma for vaccine injury. I would suggest that that situation is fairly “alarming” is it not? Note that it has paid out over $4.2bn in vaccine injury compensation to date but has denied many more claims. False claims, and pseudo-science
As I mentioned above my son was hospitalised shortly after his day 1 vaccines. He was a full-term baby, breast fed and without any complications during pregnancy then a few days after his 6 in 1 had to be hospitalised. A coincidence? Possibly but knowing now what I didn’t know then I am comfortable in assigning the reason to the 6 vaccinations he got in one go as the vaccine inserts tell you that these are common side effects but not a single medical professional ever warned me of these. Should I have read the inserts? Yes but like most people I didn’t and trusted what I was being told. In case you or the rest of the audience weren’t aware (and I wasn’t and was never told), all babies get a 6 in 1 shot on their first day of birth which includes (amongst others) a shot for Hepatitis B. In case you didn’t know (because I certainly didn’t), Hep B is commonly found in drug addicts who share needles and prostitutes as it can be transmitted sexually yet my new born son was given this shot – why I would ask? Was I given informed consent in this regard? Is it selfish to suggest that I been should have told this? Someone close to me has a daughter who has not been the same since the HPV vaccine, an unfortunately very common occurrence which the media and the government try to suppress and ignores. Many in her class also had similar bad reactions. This girl has not been the same since and can no longer work nor play sports which was her life. A coincidence? Possibly but there seems to be a lot of coincidences when it comes to vaccines. And as for science, there are multiple peer reviewed studies on these problems, multiple books, online resources (beyond the keyboard warrior guff), all of which I would be happy to share with anyone should they wish to PM me. Other examples include my farther – he took the flu jab (against my advice) and immediately fell ill with a chest infection; ditto my auntie; other older relations have told stories of several of their friends becoming ill immediately following the flu jab and they have actively avoided it and have avoided any health problems. A coincidence? Possibly but there seems to be a hell of a lot of coincidences around vaccines which big pharma, the media and government just dismiss as “misinformation”. Any question on vaccine safety is dismissed outright without any debate whatsoever. As an example of very alarming some stats (note this is not “alarmism” as you state) that anyone can verify and that come from the US government’s own agency responsible for the regulation of vaccines (the Centre for Disease Control) – autism in the US was about 1 in 10,000 in the late 1970s. Big pharma was then made exempt from liability for vaccine injury in the mid-80s. At that time there was about 11 shots in the vaccine programme in the US before you left school. Now they recommend 69 (or 72 if you include those given during pregnancy) by the time you leave school. The startling coincidence is that since the progressive increase in vaccines, autism has increased in direct proportion to 1 in 250 in 2002 to about 1 in 50 kids in the US; it’s actually as common as 1 in 36 in New Jersey. In that time childhood chronic illness has gone from 12% of kids to 54% - 1 in 2 kids in the US has some form of chronic illness. The US has the highest rate of infant mortality in the developed world and its life expectancy is now declining. These may be coincidences and correlation is not causation but if the correlation is that strong then perhaps it warrants some serious thought. Failure to acknowledge the only reason they weren't coming down with horrible diseases was that everyone else was doing the right thing
COVID19 is a new strain of corona virus so no vaccine is yet available use so I am unsure of what point you are making apart from a blanket dig at “anti-vaxxers”; it is not like anyone is refusing it as it is not yet ready. Notwithstanding, I have heard this argument raised many times by the pro vaccine side of the argument so I decided to investigate its veracity and found some surprising results. A book called Dissolving Illusions by Suzanne Humphries MD and Roman Bystrianyk charts the history of disease since the 1800s from the US and UK governments own statistics. In summary, it illustrates that disease were largely naturally dying out as a result of improved sanitation, hygiene and diet and that if left they to reduce naturally on their own at the rate they were doing so, were heading towards them naturally dying out. I’ll use the measles vaccine as just one example – when it was introduced in the mid-60s, measles had reduced by 99.6% since the 1800s without any vaccinations. If that trend was allowed to continue naturally it would in all likelihood have completely died out on its own. Another interesting point is that when reports of measles out breaks are reported in the press, very rarely thankfully, what they often leave out is that most of those infected had previously been vaccinated. On your own argument, if you are vaccinated then you will be fine so why does it matter if I have been vaccinated or not, is it not me who is left at risk? Although studies are limited on vaccinated v. unvaccinated groups, those that have been done show a staggering difference in who is the sicker group. The CDC in America has refused point blank for years to do this study, one can only wonder why that is. I haven’t even gotten into vaccine ingredients but they include aluminium, thimerosal (mercury), aborted human and animal tissues. This last point was very startling to me when I discovered it but can be easily verified. Check out Stanley Plotkin on You Tube, he is the godfather of vaccines and was cross examined in a US court where he confirmed all of this. This is not my opinion or pseudo-science, this came straight from the horse’s mouth. It is also stated in the vaccine inserts although often in confusing medical terminology so it is not immediately apparent to the reader without further investigation. And suddenly they've all gone very, very quiet. But they will be back; after they emerge from hiding from the corona virus, they will quickly re-assert themselves.As I note above, a vaccine isn’t available yet so to equate what is going on to some sort of anti-vax movement is just plainly wrong and misleading. What I want to avoid is some sort of blame game between all of us which statements like the above will lead to. “Anti-vaxxers” as you call us have nothing to do with this outbreak and its spread. If we stick to the facts, I think we can all agree that COVID19 is a nasty strain of but that (a) most of us will not get it and (b) most that do will be perfectly fine. What relevance any of this has to supposed anti-vaxxers I do not know. However, where we will be heard is when the vaccine is eventually rolled out and they try and make it mandatory, if not mandatory they will probably coerce the public’s acquiescence to it by linking it to travel or access to benefits like they do in other countries. I will however wait for that time before going into it. I am not trying to be controversial here but there is a debate to be had and to be so flippant without any back to your statement is unhelpful in my opinion.
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Post by hatchetman on Apr 6, 2020 13:53:55 GMT
God was seen walking around Kerry.
When stopped and asked what he was doing here?
He replied, "working from home"
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Apr 6, 2020 15:22:11 GMT
... Do you know what used to annoy me? The anti-vaxxers with their alarmism, false claims, and pseudo-science. Not to mention their selfishness and failure to acknowledge the only reason they weren't coming down with horrible diseases was that everyone else was doing the right thing. And suddenly they've all gone very, very quiet. But they will be back; after they emerge from hiding from the corona virus, they will quickly re-assert themselves.... I do realise that this is a GAA website but we are now discussing many non GAA related matters that affect all of our lives so I do hope Control allows this to be seen. The only bad debate in my opinion is the one that does not take place. I hope the readers find some of this info of interest and if anyone wants any direction to some of the information I have come across, then please PM me. Mandad, I really enjoy your posts as they’re very enlightening and brilliantly written but I cannot leave this statement go unchallenged. In this post I make wide reference to the statistics from the USA as they are easily verifiable and it is the most highly vaccinated country in the developed world yet has the sickest population which I will expand on throughout the below. I use it to illustrate where we could end up if we follow their lead, like we do with most things. I would be what you term an “anti-vaxxer” although I think the more accurate description is someone who wants safe vaccines. I think we can all agree that we want safe vaccines as in any other medication. Unfortunately, vaccines are not subject to the same safety standards as other medicines which is why I have concerns on their ever-increasing use. I am the parent of a child who was injured by a vaccine but fortunately is long since recovered and have several friends with similar and much worse experiences. I have been researching vaccines for years and they are not the risk-free miracle cure to everything as is portrayed by big pharma and as with any drug, they come with risks and side effects. These side effects are listed within the insert of any vaccine but yet I have never had a single doctor talk me through these risks, ever. Your statement fails on a number of levels but if I take each in turn. Alarmism and selfishness
I don’t think there is anything wrong with anyone knowing exactly what they are putting into their bodies, it is called informed consent and this doctrine can be traced back to the crimes of the Nazis in WW2. Following the Nuremberg Trials, the Nuremberg Code was agreed which set in international the law the right to informed consent. This means nobody can be forced to participate in human experiments. All participants must understand the potential risks and these risks must be fully explained to a participant and the exact same principle applies to the taking of any drugs. This is especially pertinent when we talk of a potential COVID19 vaccine. In the rush to get a vaccine ready, animal trials have been skipped and they have gone straight to human trials. If and when the vaccine is ready, remember that point and note if anyone informs you of it. If you want to take the vaccine then go ahead but do not call me selfish for declining it out of genuine concern for its safety risks. Further, would it be alarmist of me to point out that in the US, big pharma has been fully exempt from any liability for vaccine related injuries since the 1980s and that the US taxpayer funds any compensation claims by way of the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program – yes that’s correct, the US taxpayer pays out on behalf of big pharma for vaccine injury. I would suggest that that situation is fairly “alarming” is it not? Note that it has paid out over $4.2bn in vaccine injury compensation to date but has denied many more claims. False claims, and pseudo-science
As I mentioned above my son was hospitalised shortly after his day 1 vaccines. He was a full-term baby, breast fed and without any complications during pregnancy then a few days after his 6 in 1 had to be hospitalised. A coincidence? Possibly but knowing now what I didn’t know then I am comfortable in assigning the reason to the 6 vaccinations he got in one go as the vaccine inserts tell you that these are common side effects but not a single medical professional ever warned me of these. Should I have read the inserts? Yes but like most people I didn’t and trusted what I was being told. In case you or the rest of the audience weren’t aware (and I wasn’t and was never told), all babies get a 6 in 1 shot on their first day of birth which includes (amongst others) a shot for Hepatitis B. In case you didn’t know (because I certainly didn’t), Hep B is commonly found in drug addicts who share needles and prostitutes as it can be transmitted sexually yet my new born son was given this shot – why I would ask? Was I given informed consent in this regard? Is it selfish to suggest that I been should have told this? Someone close to me has a daughter who has not been the same since the HPV vaccine, an unfortunately very common occurrence which the media and the government try to suppress and ignores. Many in her class also had similar bad reactions. This girl has not been the same since and can no longer work nor play sports which was her life. A coincidence? Possibly but there seems to be a lot of coincidences when it comes to vaccines. And as for science, there are multiple peer reviewed studies on these problems, multiple books, online resources (beyond the keyboard warrior guff), all of which I would be happy to share with anyone should they wish to PM me. Other examples include my farther – he took the flu jab (against my advice) and immediately fell ill with a chest infection; ditto my auntie; other older relations have told stories of several of their friends becoming ill immediately following the flu jab and they have actively avoided it and have avoided any health problems. A coincidence? Possibly but there seems to be a hell of a lot of coincidences around vaccines which big pharma, the media and government just dismiss as “misinformation”. Any question on vaccine safety is dismissed outright without any debate whatsoever. As an example of very alarming some stats (note this is not “alarmism” as you state) that anyone can verify and that come from the US government’s own agency responsible for the regulation of vaccines (the Centre for Disease Control) – autism in the US was about 1 in 10,000 in the late 1970s. Big pharma was then made exempt from liability for vaccine injury in the mid-80s. At that time there was about 11 shots in the vaccine programme in the US before you left school. Now they recommend 69 (or 72 if you include those given during pregnancy) by the time you leave school. The startling coincidence is that since the progressive increase in vaccines, autism has increased in direct proportion to 1 in 250 in 2002 to about 1 in 50 kids in the US; it’s actually as common as 1 in 36 in New Jersey. In that time childhood chronic illness has gone from 12% of kids to 54% - 1 in 2 kids in the US has some form of chronic illness. The US has the highest rate of infant mortality in the developed world and its life expectancy is now declining. These may be coincidences and correlation is not causation but if the correlation is that strong then perhaps it warrants some serious thought. Failure to acknowledge the only reason they weren't coming down with horrible diseases was that everyone else was doing the right thing
COVID19 is a new strain of corona virus so no vaccine is yet available use so I am unsure of what point you are making apart from a blanket dig at “anti-vaxxers”; it is not like anyone is refusing it as it is not yet ready. Notwithstanding, I have heard this argument raised many times by the pro vaccine side of the argument so I decided to investigate its veracity and found some surprising results. A book called Dissolving Illusions by Suzanne Humphries MD and Roman Bystrianyk charts the history of disease since the 1800s from the US and UK governments own statistics. In summary, it illustrates that disease were largely naturally dying out as a result of improved sanitation, hygiene and diet and that if left they to reduce naturally on their own at the rate they were doing so, were heading towards them naturally dying out. I’ll use the measles vaccine as just one example – when it was introduced in the mid-60s, measles had reduced by 99.6% since the 1800s without any vaccinations. If that trend was allowed to continue naturally it would in all likelihood have completely died out on its own. Another interesting point is that when reports of measles out breaks are reported in the press, very rarely thankfully, what they often leave out is that most of those infected had previously been vaccinated. On your own argument, if you are vaccinated then you will be fine so why does it matter if I have been vaccinated or not, is it not me who is left at risk? Although studies are limited on vaccinated v. unvaccinated groups, those that have been done show a staggering difference in who is the sicker group. The CDC in America has refused point blank for years to do this study, one can only wonder why that is. I haven’t even gotten into vaccine ingredients but they include aluminium, thimerosal (mercury), aborted human and animal tissues. This last point was very startling to me when I discovered it but can be easily verified. Check out Stanley Plotkin on You Tube, he is the godfather of vaccines and was cross examined in a US court where he confirmed all of this. This is not my opinion or pseudo-science, this came straight from the horse’s mouth. It is also stated in the vaccine inserts although often in confusing medical terminology so it is not immediately apparent to the reader without further investigation. And suddenly they've all gone very, very quiet. But they will be back; after they emerge from hiding from the corona virus, they will quickly re-assert themselves.As I note above, a vaccine isn’t available yet so to equate what is going on to some sort of anti-vax movement is just plainly wrong and misleading. What I want to avoid is some sort of blame game between all of us which statements like the above will lead to. “Anti-vaxxers” as you call us have nothing to do with this outbreak and its spread. If we stick to the facts, I think we can all agree that COVID19 is a nasty strain of but that (a) most of us will not get it and (b) most that do will be perfectly fine. What relevance any of this has to supposed anti-vaxxers I do not know. However, where we will be heard is when the vaccine is eventually rolled out and they try and make it mandatory, if not mandatory they will probably coerce the public’s acquiescence to it by linking it to travel or access to benefits like they do in other countries. I will however wait for that time before going into it. I am not trying to be controversial here but there is a debate to be had and to be so flippant without any back to your statement is unhelpful in my opinion. You should * off with this absolute rubbish.
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Post by rollingstone on Apr 6, 2020 16:34:37 GMT
Annascaultilidie - that's very nice of you, are you not able to hold an adult conversation on a topic you disagree with? Should I be shut down because I hold a dissenting opinion? That seems to be the default position for many people nowadays unfortunately.
Are you going to give me any evidence why what I have said is rubbish? I have given plenty for my position and I have much more if you're interested in it. You're obviously uncomfortable with the topic which is fine, many are, but I don't know why you're being so dismissive. Mandad made a statement which in my opinion, was unfair and unsubstantiated for the reasons already given but I respect his opinion. I am however, entitled to my opinion, especially when I back it up with facts and not conjecture. This debate is very relevant to the current situation as I suspect that with the level of fear out there, people won't need to be mandated for the COVID19 vaccine when it comes out, they'll be queuing up for it. If you get nothing else from this post then perhaps you’ll look into its safety background and efficacy before taking it. I am not saying don’t have it, just advocating for fully informed, voluntary consent and the entitlement to an opinion which may be outside of the mainstream without being vilified for it.
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 6, 2020 16:43:24 GMT
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Apr 6, 2020 17:04:59 GMT
Annascaultilidie - that's very nice of you, are you not able to hold an adult conversation on a topic you disagree with? Should I be shut down because I hold a dissenting opinion? That seems to be the default position for many people nowadays unfortunately. Are you going to give me any evidence why what I have said is rubbish? I have given plenty for my position and I have much more if you're interested in it. You're obviously uncomfortable with the topic which is fine, many are, but I don't know why you're being so dismissive. Mandad made a statement which in my opinion, was unfair and unsubstantiated for the reasons already given but I respect his opinion. I am however, entitled to my opinion, especially when I back it up with facts and not conjecture. This debate is very relevant to the current situation as I suspect that with the level of fear out there, people won't need to be mandated for the COVID19 vaccine when it comes out, they'll be queuing up for it. If you get nothing else from this post then perhaps you’ll look into its safety background and efficacy before taking it. I am not saying don’t have it, just advocating for fully informed, voluntary consent and the entitlement to an opinion which may be outside of the mainstream without being vilified for it. Your position deserves no respect.
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Post by rollingstone on Apr 6, 2020 17:11:35 GMT
I think that says more about you Annascaultilidie than it does me, I'll leave it at that.
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Post by kerrygold on Apr 6, 2020 18:27:19 GMT
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mandad
Senior Member
Posts: 448
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Post by mandad on Apr 6, 2020 18:49:42 GMT
Rollingstone.
Life requires us to hold one opinion or another in the important things that arise. Our peace of mind depends on our certainty in whatever position we hold and without doubt, you’re entitled to your opinion. I might disagree with you, but I will defend your right to say what you think.
Tolstoy states it beautifully; - “I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”
Seems as if the “Let them all die – God knows his own” club has more members than I thought.
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 6, 2020 20:17:35 GMT
Annascaultilidie - that's very nice of you, are you not able to hold an adult conversation on a topic you disagree with? Should I be shut down because I hold a dissenting opinion? That seems to be the default position for many people nowadays unfortunately. Are you going to give me any evidence why what I have said is rubbish? I have given plenty for my position and I have much more if you're interested in it. You're obviously uncomfortable with the topic which is fine, many are, but I don't know why you're being so dismissive. Mandad made a statement which in my opinion, was unfair and unsubstantiated for the reasons already given but I respect his opinion. I am however, entitled to my opinion, especially when I back it up with facts and not conjecture. This debate is very relevant to the current situation as I suspect that with the level of fear out there, people won't need to be mandated for the COVID19 vaccine when it comes out, they'll be queuing up for it. If you get nothing else from this post then perhaps you’ll look into its safety background and efficacy before taking it. I am not saying don’t have it, just advocating for fully informed, voluntary consent and the entitlement to an opinion which may be outside of the mainstream without being vilified for it. Your position deserves no respect. Go on. Keep on revealing yourself.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Apr 7, 2020 5:44:29 GMT
Your position deserves no respect. Go on. Keep on revealing yourself. Do you think the antivax position deserves respect?
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Post by rollingstone on Apr 7, 2020 9:00:42 GMT
Rollingstone. Life requires us to hold one opinion or another in the important things that arise. Our peace of mind depends on our certainty in whatever position we hold and without doubt, you’re entitled to your opinion. I might disagree with you, but I will defend your right to say what you think. Tolstoy states it beautifully; - “I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.” Seems as if the “Let them all die – God knows his own” club has more members than I thought. You haven't addressed any of the points and evidence I raised in my post, instead you quote some lovely prose to deflect from your baseless "anti-vaxxer" jibe but as you do not appear to have anything support your statement, I guess we can park that, for now at least. As to your final point, I fail to see how you arrive at the conclusion that I am part of the "let them all die” club, again, you are just deflecting from the points I have made. I am far from being in the "let them all die” club, of course people need to be sensible and take precautions but shutting down the whole world and its economies is completely irrational and OTT in my opinion. It is based on flakey science at best, false science at worst. There are numerous internationally acclaimed academics and doctors saying exactly the same thing. The UK scientist Neil Ferguson of Imperial College (whom the government there have been getting pandemic advice from) downgraded his Armageddon type forecast of 500,000 UK deaths to 20,000 after just one day of lockdown and admitted that at least half of those would have died at the very least. A dramatic climb down don’t you think? This is the same man who was responsible for the unnecessary death of 6m healthy animals during the foot and mouth “crisis” in 2001, again on baseless and inaccurate modelling. He also recommended that schools close during the swine flu in 2009 which had only a very basic impact on the UK. Ask yourself what has happened everywhere else they have locked down – answer: the rates of infection have dramatically gone up, the only thing going down is the world economy. The reality is that thankfully, most people won’t catch COVD19 and even if you do, the vast majority of people will show barely more than mild symptoms let alone die from it. I personally know 3 people that have had it, bed for a week to 10 days then back to normal. Like every other illness, there will be those vulnerable persons that aren’t so lucky but that happens every single year and the world doesn’t grind to a halt. Has anyone considered the effect that another crash will have on the public’s health, both physical and mental, heart disease, suicides, increased alcoholism etc.? Countless studies have shown a close correlation with rising unemployment and increases in death, way above what we are seeing now. Cast your mind back into the not too distant past and recall the wider impact the crash had on our society. As I like an evidence-based argument, which some on here clearly don’t, why don’t you check out Europe’s own statistics on annual average deaths? Look at week 2 of 2017 as an example here www.euromomo.eu/slices/map_2017_2020.html you can check the deaths week by week. Go back a year, go back two etc. and you will see spikes in deaths during the winter throughout Europe worse than what we are seeing now but nothing was mentioned then and we didn’t shut the whole world down. It is fine for those on the government’s payroll and gold plated pensions (good luck to them, that is not a dig) to lock the country down indefinitely but those of us who are trying to run businesses are the ones who will go under and the working man and middle classes, much like the crash in 2008+, will be the ones left paying the price, again. I go to the shops and have to queue to get in, I see people actively avoiding one another, not stopping to talk to each other, I see my local club where I volunteer closed, friends shut away, my kids holed up for weeks on end, guards on roadblocks when you can never get hold of them when you need them and I ask myself for what, what price are we paying? We’ve turned into a police state and are under mass house arrest and I am very worried at how accepting we have all become of this situation, largely based on the crap they pump out on RTE and in the papers. If people scratch beneath the surface, do some digging and their own research you will surprise yourself with what you find. What I see is the psychology of fear in action but a wise man once told me that you conquer fear through knowledge. Let’s go and get that knowledge, if it is bad news then then fine, do what has to be done but I believe that the evidence shows that it is not as bad as is being portrayed. Again, happy to share this information with anyone if they want it as I have loads of it. Implement sensible social distancing measures if you like but look at Sweden, look at Japan, they are dealing with this issue without resorting to turning into a police state and locking down its population. Trump for once was 100% right when he said that the cure cannot be worse than the disease but because he is Trump he is denounced when for once he is the only talking any sense.
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Post by rollingstone on Apr 7, 2020 9:10:13 GMT
Go on. Keep on revealing yourself. Do you think the antivax position deserves respect? You obviously have a problem with my opinion, that is fine, we all have different opinions but that does not mean that the debate should be shut down and insults thrown around the way you do. You insult me without once addressing a single point I make, it really is pathetic but having seen you posting on here for long time now, I shouldn’t be surprised as you tend to throw your toys out of the pram anytime you're in a corner rather than have an intelligent debate. I am not trying to turn this thread into a pro-vaxxer v. anti-vaxxer debate, I think the fact that you hurl insults around and refuse to address my points speaks for itself. There is however, an important wider discussion to be had in the absence of any sport but you dismiss me out of hand completely. As Mandad put so eloquently, I have a right to be heard even if it’s not to your liking so get over it and grow up.
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Post by kerrygold on Apr 7, 2020 10:40:52 GMT
People might also be interested in this following on from yesterdays link on the Buteyko Breathing Method posted above. oxygenadvantage.com/Both are well worth taking a look at.
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Post by john4 on Apr 7, 2020 10:51:40 GMT
The focus of this thread is being lost. This thread is titled All Gaa Activity Suspended, recent posts have no reference whatsoever to the Gaa. This is not a platform for debate on medical sciences. Debate elsewhere please.
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