|
|
Post by dc84 on May 14, 2019 11:17:51 GMT
Sorry 8f this exists already but there has been a lot of talk recently about this topic and John Hogan has stated it's one of his main objectives.
Personally I think it's a terrible idea for the weaker counties. They will get zero coverage on tv ,lose sponsorship crowds will be minimal. Player buy in will be tough to achieve.
Also where do you split it? Dublin are well ahead of everyone at the moment, with mayo galway kerry Tyrone Donegal monaghan in the tier below. In my opinion the rest are relatively on a par as the weekend showed.
Dublin could if they wanted beat any team outside of those mentioned above by 20 + especially in croke park.
The gap in standard to what's below these 7 is the big issue in my book excluding div 3 and four teams solves nothing there will always be mismatches in any sport it's giving the underdogs a fair chance is the key.
For example the limerick footballers beating Tipperary at the weekend was massive for them no one would care if it was in a b competion just see the coverage the laois hurlers got for beating offally in the mcdonagh compared to limerick.
|
|
|
|
Post by buck02 on May 14, 2019 11:56:53 GMT
Sorry 8f this exists already but there has been a lot of talk recently about this topic and John Hogan has stated it's one of his main objectives. Personally I think it's a terrible idea for the weaker counties. They will get zero coverage on tv ,lose sponsorship crowds will be minimal. Player buy in will be tough to achieve. Also where do you split it? Dublin are well ahead of everyone at the moment, with mayo galway kerry Tyrone Donegal monaghan in the tier below. In my opinion the rest are relatively on a par as the weekend showed. Dublin could if they wanted beat any team outside of those mentioned above by 20 + especially in croke park. The gap in standard to what's below these 7 is the big issue in my book excluding div 3 and four teams solves nothing there will always be mismatches in any sport it's giving the underdogs a fair chance is the key. For example the limerick footballers beating Tipperary at the weekend was massive for them no one would care if it was in a b competion just see the coverage the laois hurlers got for beating offally in the mcdonagh compared to limerick. I dont agree. Giving teams a shot at winning a competition where they play their equals? Division 3 of the League went down the the wire this year - all teams with something to play for on the last day. Look at Leitrim getting to Croke Park and what it did for the county. Why would they get no coverage on TV? Surely Virgin Media or TG4 would look to get rights to the live games in these B competitions? And on the crowds - I dont think there would be a huge difference in the number of Offaly people who would have gone to see their team against Meath last week than if they were playing Leitrim in the quarter final of the B championship? You could also play the final on the day of the All Ireland semi final, ensuring a full house in Croker for it. I can see nothing but positives for a tiered championship. |
|
|
|
Post by onlykerry on May 14, 2019 13:04:25 GMT
Sorry 8f this exists already but there has been a lot of talk recently about this topic and John Hogan has stated it's one of his main objectives. Personally I think it's a terrible idea for the weaker counties. They will get zero coverage on tv ,lose sponsorship crowds will be minimal. Player buy in will be tough to achieve. Also where do you split it? Dublin are well ahead of everyone at the moment, with mayo galway kerry Tyrone Donegal monaghan in the tier below. In my opinion the rest are relatively on a par as the weekend showed. Dublin could if they wanted beat any team outside of those mentioned above by 20 + especially in croke park. The gap in standard to what's below these 7 is the big issue in my book excluding div 3 and four teams solves nothing there will always be mismatches in any sport it's giving the underdogs a fair chance is the key. For example the limerick footballers beating Tipperary at the weekend was massive for them no one would care if it was in a b competion just see the coverage the laois hurlers got for beating offally in the mcdonagh compared to limerick. Would disagree - grading competitions is essential to the development of the so called weaker counties. The issue of making it attractive is a separate issue and one that requires serious thought and effort. The excitement at winning division 2,3 & 4 is real and palpable for players and supporters. The junior and intermediate medals won throughout the country are prized by most winners. Nothing beats winning and a winning side always generates enthuasism in the players and supporters alike - drives them on to greater things and makes them believe..... |
|
|
|
Post by themanfromthewest on May 14, 2019 13:21:05 GMT
Sean Kelly’s proposal from a few years back is probably the most workable one that I have seen.
I agree some form of grading for the championship is essential. The smaller counties won’t get a lot of coverage but really how much coverage do they get now anyway? RTE and SKY understandably only want to show the big games and that will always be the case.
At the risk of sounding condescending perhaps TG4 or Virgin / TV3 might cover the second tier and show most of the games if it was packaged properly. Broadcasting rights as a whole would have to be looked at as part of any restructuring.
|
|
|
|
Post by OnTheForty on May 14, 2019 15:38:28 GMT
Sean Kelly’s proposal from a few years back is probably the most workable one that I have seen. What was Sean Kelly's proposal? I agree with a two tier format; would lead to better games, closer and evenly matched. Also gives weaker teams more games, and more chance of winning. The big decision is how to integrate with provincial championships, or scrap the provinces. But that will not get support from provincial councils or some counties. I reckon top tier of 16 teams made up of: 8 NFL Div 1 teams. 8 provincial finalists. Assuming overlap between Div 1 and province finalists, then fill up the 16 from Div 2 NFL. The other 20 teams including NY and London go into B championship. This way a Div 3 or 4 team has a shot at A championship by getting to provincial final, and lowest team in Div 2 loses that spot. Knockout games after provincial final: means 15 more games in A championship and 4 games for the All Ireland finalists. Similar for B championship, which could start earlier, where D3 / D4 teams beaten early in provinces, play off against each other similar to current back door. |
|
|
|
Post by themanfromthewest on May 14, 2019 15:54:26 GMT
Sean Kelly’s proposal from a few years back is probably the most workable one that I have seen. What was Sean Kelly's proposal? I agree with a two tier format; would lead to better games, closer and evenly matched. Also gives weaker teams more games, and more chance of winning. The big decision is how to integrate with provincial championships, or scrap the provinces. But that will not get support from provincial councils or some counties. I reckon top tier of 16 teams made up of: 8 NFL Div 1 teams. 8 provincial finalists. Assuming overlap between Div 1 and province finalists, then fill up the 16 from Div 2 NFL. The other 20 teams including NY and London go into B championship. This way a Div 3 or 4 team has a shot at A championship by getting to provincial final, and lowest team in Div 2 loses that spot. Knockout games after provincial final: means 15 more games in A championship and 4 games for the All Ireland finalists. Similar for B championship, which could start earlier, where D3 / D4 teams beaten early in provinces, play off against each other similar to current back door. Sean’s proposal was two tiers of 16, it’s not unlike your own suggestion actually Tier 1 was the provincial winners and the two finalists from the tier 2 competition the previous year with the remaining places awarded by way of league position until the 16 places are allocated. Div 1 counties and most of Div 2 will be in the tier 1 competition. Everyone else plays in tier 2 Jim McGuinness put forward something vaguely similar as well. I think that’s probably the formula we will get eventually. The provincial competitions are still an issue given Leinster and Ulster have more teams And take longer to run off. I’d like to see the provincials played at the same time as the league on alternating weekends so that all the finals are played over one weekend shortly after the league wraps up. Break of a few weeks and then let the knockout competition begin. |
|
|
|
Post by Mickmack on May 14, 2019 16:43:41 GMT
Unless they scrap the provincial championships they are just tweaking a broken system.
If they scrapped the provincials they could go straight to super 8 for each division....
I cant think of a better way to grade teams that the final placings of the league.
I would probably amalgamate div 3 and div 4 teams into one competition.
The national league would dictate who plays in what competition that year. In other words, Cavan and Rossies would be in div 2 competition for 2019.
Give the finals a big day in croker before the AI semi finals and everyone would buy into it.
You can have great games between evenly matched teams. I was in Barack oBama plaza on saturday last year and England were playing the world cup on one screen with little interest but there was huge interest in Rossie v Armagh on another screen. Evenly matched teams is the key. There was no standout team in hurling in 2018. But twas engrossing because like was playing like.
|
|
|
|
Post by givehimaball on May 14, 2019 19:48:57 GMT
Ciaran Deeley (London manager) is strongly in favour of a 2nd tier - posted some good stuff on Twitter.
He's been with the London team for 4/5 years so has a fair bit of "skin in the game"
|
|
|
|
Post by ballhopper34 on May 14, 2019 22:07:51 GMT
By July 1 there will be 8 counties left in the football Super 8's/quarter finals. Last year it was 7 2018 div 1 teams (Mayo knocked out by Kildare) plus a promoted div 2 team (Roscommon).
Divide the 24 teams not scheduled for inter-county football until Jan 2020 into 8 groups of 3 (each county to get a home game and an away game). The 4 intermediate groups will be Div 2 and top 4 of div 3 teams. The 4 junior group will be bottom 4 of div 3 and div 4. Winners of each group to semi-final and then a final. Adjust as necessary if a div 1 team fails to make the Super 8's.
Call the competitions whatever you like, even as simple as "The Summer Leagues 1 and 2". Consider Friday nights for games. Finals on August Bank Holiday weekend, Corn na Lunasa agus Corn Iuil maybe?. Give the semi-finals and finals some TV exposure...allow (or even pay) TG4 to broadcast them.
Something must be done to add a few games in the summer. Plenty more novel ideas out there...semi-finals in London (nice weekend away to start the August holidays).
Add as you see fit...
|
|
|
|
Post by onlykerry on May 16, 2019 10:19:27 GMT
By July 1 there will be 8 counties left in the football Super 8's/quarter finals. Last year it was 7 2018 div 1 teams (Mayo knocked out by Kildare) plus a promoted div 2 team (Roscommon). Divide the 24 teams not scheduled for inter-county football until Jan 2020 into 8 groups of 3 (each county to get a home game and an away game). The 4 intermediate groups will be Div 2 and top 4 of div 3 teams. The 4 junior group will be bottom 4 of div 3 and div 4. Winners of each group to semi-final and then a final. Adjust as necessary if a div 1 team fails to make the Super 8's. Call the competitions whatever you like, even as simple as "The Summer Leagues 1 and 2". Consider Friday nights for games. Finals on August Bank Holiday weekend, Corn na Lunasa agus Corn Iuil maybe?. Give the semi-finals and finals some TV exposure...allow (or even pay) TG4 to broadcast them. Something must be done to add a few games in the summer. Plenty more novel ideas out there...semi-finals in London (nice weekend away to start the August holidays). Add as you see fit... €300k from the GAA "Lets help Dublin" fund to fo to the players funds - Say €100k to the winners and €50k to the losing finalist. Make showing games a condition of getting grade 1 fixtures - at least this raises the profile, you cannot force people to watch. |
|
|
|
Post by Mickmack on May 16, 2019 14:16:26 GMT
if more people stopped going to non event provincial games they would change things faster
|
|
|
|
Post by buck02 on May 16, 2019 19:42:20 GMT
if more people stopped going to non event provincial games they would change things faster But - A munster final in Killarney against Cork beats any game in Croke Park or anywhere else as an occasion. However, the Tyrone game in Killarney also brought a "Munster Final against Cork" vibe to it. A Super 8 game against Mayo in Killarney could also be in the offing this year. What a game that could be. More of these type of games in provencial grounds as opposed to dragging teams all the way to Croke Park would open up the minds to moving away from the summer Provencial championships. |
|
|
|
Post by Mickmack on May 16, 2019 19:54:42 GMT
if more people stopped going to non event provincial games they would change things faster But - A munster final in Killarney against Cork beats any game in Croke Park or anywhere else as an occasion. However, the Tyrone game in Killarney also brought a "Munster Final against Cork" vibe to it. A Super 8 game against Mayo in Killarney could also be in the offing this year. What a game that could be. More of these type of games in provencial grounds as opposed to dragging teams all the way to Croke Park would open up the minds to moving away from the summer Provencial championships. maybe my post was unclear.... I want the division 1 teams playing each other during the summer. As many as possible on a home and away basis. Kerry v Mayo, Dublin Galway Tyrone, Monaghan.... whoever happens to be in Kerrys division in the league. My reference to "provincial" in my original post referred to the munster football championship. The TV coverage says it all. It might be the catalyst for change. Kerry v Tyrone was a fab occasion. If Cork get back to div 1, a super 8 game with them would be great. |
|
|
|
Post by hurlingman on May 16, 2019 20:14:35 GMT
Sorry 8f this exists already but there has been a lot of talk recently about this topic and John Hogan has stated it's one of his main objectives. Personally I think it's a terrible idea for the weaker counties. They will get zero coverage on tv ,lose sponsorship crowds will be minimal. Player buy in will be tough to achieve.
Also where do you split it? Dublin are well ahead of everyone at the moment, with mayo galway kerry Tyrone Donegal monaghan in the tier below. In my opinion the rest are relatively on a par as the weekend showed. Dublin could if they wanted beat any team outside of those mentioned above by 20 + especially in croke park. The gap in standard to what's below these 7 is the big issue in my book excluding div 3 and four teams solves nothing there will always be mismatches in any sport it's giving the underdogs a fair chance is the key. For example the limerick footballers beating Tipperary at the weekend was massive for them no one would care if it was in a b competion just see the coverage the laois hurlers got for beating offally in the mcdonagh compared to limerick. I never undedstand this argument. The likes of Limerick, Waterford, Leitrim etc get little to no coverage as it is, so why is this always used as an idea against it? |
|
|
|
Post by Mickmack on May 16, 2019 20:30:42 GMT
Sorry 8f this exists already but there has been a lot of talk recently about this topic and John Hogan has stated it's one of his main objectives. Personally I think it's a terrible idea for the weaker counties. They will get zero coverage on tv ,lose sponsorship crowds will be minimal. Player buy in will be tough to achieve.
Also where do you split it? Dublin are well ahead of everyone at the moment, with mayo galway kerry Tyrone Donegal monaghan in the tier below. In my opinion the rest are relatively on a par as the weekend showed. Dublin could if they wanted beat any team outside of those mentioned above by 20 + especially in croke park. The gap in standard to what's below these 7 is the big issue in my book excluding div 3 and four teams solves nothing there will always be mismatches in any sport it's giving the underdogs a fair chance is the key. For example the limerick footballers beating Tipperary at the weekend was massive for them no one would care if it was in a b competion just see the coverage the laois hurlers got for beating offally in the mcdonagh compared to limerick. I never undedstand this argument. The likes of Limerick, Waterford, Leitrim etc get little to no coverage as it is, so why is this always used as an idea against it? I dont get that argument either. |
|
|
|
Post by ballynamona on May 16, 2019 20:43:05 GMT
if more people stopped going to non event provincial games they would change things faster But - A munster final in Killarney against Cork beats any game in Croke Park or anywhere else as an occasion. However, the Tyrone game in Killarney also brought a "Munster Final against Cork" vibe to it. A Super 8 game against Mayo in Killarney could also be in the offing this year. What a game that could be. More of these type of games in provencial grounds as opposed to dragging teams all the way to Croke Park would open up the minds to moving away from the summer Provencial championships. The Munster Final v Cork in Killarney is great but lets face it not the same any more when not do or die. If games up to and including quarter finals had home advantage it would make for a great atmosphere. |
|
|
|
Post by kerrygold on May 17, 2019 9:04:02 GMT
Pointless conversation while the Associations remains welded to the fabric of the lopsided Provincial championships.
However saying that, playing the championship as a NFL format, home and away at provincial county grounds, 14 games per county at the league stage, and incorporation the old NFL conclusion league format by reintroducing the quarter finals, semi finals and final would created the fairest championship structure. Top Div 1 play top div 4 in the quarter final, second div 1 play top div 3 and so...........
Structure the national fixtures schedule at club & county level throughout the year around this in a level playing field for all. No need for second tier & 3rd tier competitions then. Every county gets a cut at playing for Sam at their own level initially before progression up the food chain. The best county team will rise to the top of the food chain and win Sam.
The four divisional Leaders after round 7 of the league format could be awarded the four divisional NFL titles. Play the Provincial championships in Jan/Feb to replace the existing pre season tournaments.
The current hurling championship format is brilliant because counties of equal standard are all playing each other in a league format that matters to progressing in the championship.
|
|
|
|
Post by piggott on May 17, 2019 10:06:15 GMT
16 teams have won the Sam Maguire Cup to date. Preclude those from secondary competition and let the rest play that off on a knockout basis during super 8s. Of course a county who qualifies for Super 8 would forego secondary comp for that year. Play final on Saturday night of AIF.
|
|
|
|
Post by ballhopper34 on May 17, 2019 23:51:49 GMT
By July 1 there will be 8 counties left in the football Super 8's/quarter finals. Last year it was 7 2018 div 1 teams (Mayo knocked out by Kildare) plus a promoted div 2 team (Roscommon). Divide the 24 teams not scheduled for inter-county football until Jan 2020 into 8 groups of 3 (each county to get a home game and an away game). The 4 intermediate groups will be Div 2 and top 4 of div 3 teams. The 4 junior group will be bottom 4 of div 3 and div 4. Winners of each group to semi-final and then a final. Adjust as necessary if a div 1 team fails to make the Super 8's. Call the competitions whatever you like, even as simple as "The Summer Leagues 1 and 2". Consider Friday nights for games. Finals on August Bank Holiday weekend, Corn na Lunasa agus Corn Iuil maybe?. Give the semi-finals and finals some TV exposure...allow (or even pay) TG4 to broadcast them. Something must be done to add a few games in the summer. Plenty more novel ideas out there...semi-finals in London (nice weekend away to start the August holidays). Add as you see fit... Putting a bit more flesh on this: Tier 2: Bowl 1: Top 4 of Div 2 – Meath, Donegal, Fermanagh, Kildare Bowl 2: Bottom 4 of Div 2 – Armagh, Clare, Cork, Tipperary Bowl 3: Top 4 of Div 3 – Westmeath, Laois, Down, Louth. 4 groups of three teams – one team from each bowl. Game 1: Bowl 3 hosts Bowl 1; Weekend 12/13/14 July Game 2: Bowl 2 hosts Bowl 3; Weekend 19/20/21 July Game 3: Bowl 1 hosts Bowl 2; Weekend 26/27/28 July Group winners into semi-finals on August Bank Holiday weekend, followed by final as curtain raiser to Senior Semi-final 1 on 10 August. Tier 3:Bowl 1: Bottom 4 of Div 3 – Longford, Offaly, Carlow, Sligo Bowl 2: Top 4 of Div 4 – Derry, Leitrim, Antrim, Waterford Bowl 3: Bottom 4 of Div 4 – Wicklow, Wexford, Limerick, London 4 groups of three teams – one team from each bowl. Game 1: Bowl 3 hosts Bowl 1; Weekend 12/13/14 July Game 2: Bowl 2 hosts Bowl 3; Weekend 19/20/21 July Game 3: Bowl 1 hosts Bowl 2; Weekend 26/27/28 July Group winners into semi-finals on August Bank Holiday weekend, followed by final as curtain raiser to Senior Semi-final 2 on 11 August. If a Div 2,3 or 4 team makes the Super 8, the Div 1 team(s) not making Super 8 drop to top of Div 2 and all others slide down accordingly. Games must be played to produce a winner on the day - experiment as to how this can be done. Have games on Friday nights, especially if counties close to each other. If semi-finals in London, GAA HQ to cover flight and hotel costs. |
|
|
|
Post by glengael on May 27, 2019 11:35:02 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by kerrygold on May 27, 2019 12:36:16 GMT
Should the backdoor become the second tier competition played to a conclusion/final with one team/winner reentering the championship?
|
|
|
|
Post by Mickmack on May 27, 2019 19:42:50 GMT
Should the backdoor become the second tier competition played to a conclusion/final with one team/winner reentering the championship? No i would say. Would Mayo have bothered winning the second tier competition last year. The provincial thing has to go end of. Was it the normans and strongbow came up with that idea of provinces. Didnt they do enough damage. Time to move on from their ideas! |
|
|
|
Post by kerrygold on May 27, 2019 20:28:51 GMT
Should the backdoor become the second tier competition played to a conclusion/final with one team/winner reentering the championship? No i would say. Would Mayo have bothered winning the second tier competition last year. The provincial thing has to go end of. Was it the normans and strongbow came up with that idea of provinces. Didnt they do enough damage. Time to move on from their ideas! The backdoor with a race to one to re enter the championship would be hugely competitive! |
|
|
|
Post by Mickmack on May 27, 2019 21:01:46 GMT
they just have to start putting teams of the same standard up against each other and the league gives you that.
Thats all that happens in the hurling when all is said and gone.... the top 8 or 9 play each other in the league and they are split into two groups for the round robin.
Even though Rossies and Cavan were relegated they were well able to go toe to toe with other div 1 teams in the championship.
Why continue to tweak the thing around the "province" system.
|
|
|
|
Post by piggott on Jul 31, 2019 16:52:00 GMT
The Super 8s is a bit of a dead duck come Round 3. I think the Christy Ring format, ie Round 1, open draw between the 8, four winners play, with the two winners going to semi finals. The other two semi finalists would come from the losers of the winners playing the winners of the losers like Kerry County Championship. Each game would be meaningful and knock out. Neutral games would be in Croke Park except for Dublin.
|
|
|
|
Post by onlykerry on Jul 31, 2019 17:15:14 GMT
The Super 8s is a bit of a dead duck come Round 3. I think the Christy Ring format, ie Round 1, open draw between the 8, four winners play, with the two winners going to semi finals. The other two semi finalists would come from the losers of the winners playing the winners of the losers like Kerry County Championship. Each game would be meaningful and knock out. Neutral games would be in Croke Park except for Dublin. This would keep games interesting and avoid dead rubbers - I would suggest the provincial winners are seeded in R1 and get home venue. |
|
|
|
Post by stuckintipp on Jul 31, 2019 17:51:11 GMT
Had an in-depth conversation in this over the weekend over pints, here are the results;
1 - scrap the current league. Keep the preseason McGrath Cup etc but play later. Start at end feb.
2 - two tiers, A section with 14 teams in two groups of 7. B section with 20 teams in 4 groups of five. A section sees each team with 3 home and 3 Away. B with 2 home and two away.
3 - QF consist of 6 teams from A and 2 from B. Ergo ever county can make the AI QF. Top three in each A group and finalists of B.
4 - bottom two teams in each A group of 7 go into relegation playoff. Losers go down and finalists from B come up. Like in current league set up practically no dead rubbers matches at the end. 5 of 7 teams to be in QF or relegation.
5 - top 2 teams in each A group get home QF. 3rd places team and B finalists have away QF. No repeat fixtures in QF. Open draw after that.
6 - from B, 2nd team get home R16 against 3rd placed team. top team in the 4 B groups get home QF Against winner from r16.
7 - provincial cup also kept as a knock out to be played in middle of group stages. B teams go into the earlier rounds and A teams get Byes if they are to be given out.
8 - final of province played after completion of group matches but before QF. Therefore from Mid July to 1st week of Sept are all key matches. Provincial final, QFs, relegation matches etc.
9 - April, May & June sees group matches and early rounds of provincial knock out.
|
|
|
|
Post by piggott on Jul 31, 2019 18:00:36 GMT
The Super 8s is a bit of a dead duck come Round 3. I think the Christy Ring format, ie Round 1, open draw between the 8, four winners play, with the two winners going to semi finals. The other two semi finalists would come from the losers of the winners playing the winners of the losers like Kerry County Championship. Each game would be meaningful and knock out. Neutral games would be in Croke Park except for Dublin. This would keep games interesting and avoid dead rubbers - I would suggest the provincial winners are seeded in R1 and get home venue. |
|
|
|
Post by piggott on Jul 31, 2019 18:05:21 GMT
Good idea. It would keep provincials competitive. Qualifiers as at present to get the other 4. Prov champs would get 2nd chance if caught on the hop. Maybe two weeks between last round and semi finals. 2 more weeks to final.
|
|
|
|
Post by shaggy04 on Aug 1, 2019 7:08:27 GMT
Keep the provincial championship,played in May early June.
Scrap the all Ireland championship.
Play the national league in June July August early September,possibly have a 10 team division 1.
Top 2 teams in division 1 play all Ireland final for Sam Maguire
Every team,including Dublin get 4 home 5 away 1 year,5 home 4 away the next.
|
|
