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Post by dc84 on Mar 1, 2019 15:07:15 GMT
Never happen nor should it
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Post by Ard Mhacha on Mar 1, 2019 16:29:58 GMT
The thing I find strange is so many counties (well, county delegates) voted against Donegal’s obvious reasonable motion. I mean, it’s only fair each team is treated the same. And any loss in revenue from moving a game to Parnell Park is already being more than made up for, by the extra games at the new QF group stage.
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keane
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,267
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Post by keane on Mar 1, 2019 17:13:19 GMT
Never happen nor should it I used to think the same but I no longer think it beyond the realms of belief that the sleeveens in Croke Park are trying to manufacture the situation to where Dublin are so dominant that everyone will agree they must be split - in order to increase the money they can squeeze out of the longed-for blue tidal wave. Twice as many 'Dublin' games, Dublin 'derbies' *shudder* etc. If everything is justified by money already it's only a matter of time before they decide on the 'split Dublin for money' approach if they are not already actively pursuing it. I think the GAA at intercounty level is close to a lost cause tbh.
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Post by kerrygold on Mar 1, 2019 17:31:16 GMT
Agreed, the Leinster & Munster championships are dead rubbers now. Games outside of the top two or three teams playing each other are required viewing. The thought of two Dublin teams playing each other in an All-Ireland final would drive the sane into the mountains for solitude..........Realistically, outside of Kerry & Mayo what other team/teams are going to throw apples at Dublin this year, next or for the foreseeable future?
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Post by Mickmack on Mar 1, 2019 17:36:00 GMT
Never happen nor should it I used to think the same but I no longer think it beyond the realms of belief that the sleeveens in Croke Park are trying to manufacture the situation to where Dublin are so dominant that everyone will agree they must be split - in order to increase the money they can squeeze out of the longed-for blue tidal wave. Twice as many 'Dublin' games, Dublin 'derbies' *shudder* etc. If everything is justified by money already it's only a matter of time before they decide on the 'split Dublin for money' approach if they are not already actively pursuing it. I think the GAA at intercounty level is close to a lost cause tbh. I can see it happening anyway. What else explains their strategy.
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Post by Ard Mhacha on Mar 1, 2019 20:18:53 GMT
I think the GAA at intercounty level is close to a lost cause tbh. You’re right, in lots of ways.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Mar 3, 2019 5:56:33 GMT
One thing being ignored in all of this is that people think Dublin should have a 'home' stadium capable of holding maybe 30,000 for games that otherwise wouldn't be in Croke Park. But when there is already a stadium in the city capable of holding any crowd except some All-Ireland finals what would the sense in that be? We've already got the farce of what was spent on the PUC rebuild and the state of the pitch there. Another big stadium in Dublin and the same people complaining about Croker would be straight onto another bandwagon campaign. I think that people need to be honest here and admit that this is simply most about clutching at straws from a point of view of wanting to see Dublin taken down a peg or two. People want to have their cake and eat it. When the Qtr finals were in Croke Park people didn't complain. What has changed? During the 2014 All-Ire semifinal games Kerry kicked up a storm that the replay Vs Mayo wasn't in Croker, despite it being virtually on their doorstep in Limerick, then tried to claim that Limerick was much harder to get to! There's no having this argument in normal terms! The same people going apoplectic about that replay being in Limerick are the ones saying it's unfair for Kerry and Mayo and Donegal fans to have to come to Croker for a second Super 8 game in the group that Dublin will be in for as long as they keep qualifying. How can anyone argue against such logic? When Dublin were well beatable by all the better teams in the country, all we heard was how great a place Croker was to play, and how it was "the only place to play". It was not considered any advantage to Dublin back then and clearly it wasn't as teams very often if anything raised their game playing there, especially against the locals. No real Dublin supporter will really care where the game is as long as they can get in. But the hypocrisy of so many people wanting to always have it a certain way even if that contradicts what they used to insist on or demand even is hard to listen to. Anyway there's one simple solution to the debate about capacity, which was already widely lauded all around the country such as when two Ulster teams opted to play the Ulster Final in Croke Park - let the two counties involved agree on a suitable venue for the 'third' Super 8 game. Home and away or luck of the draw doesn't work so well if you have one county with a huge stadium and another one with a small one. People used the FA Cup as comparison but this is still not the same as the All-Ire/GAA. I agree with more games played outside Crok Park btw, always have done but no matter what the structure of the draw in the S8s is, better to just leave open an option for teams to discuss venue. It is not long since Mr Costello was castigating NAMA for not gifting/subsidising the purchase of the Spawell complex to Dublin GAA to facilitate that second stadium you mention. You mention hypocrisy of people in their opinions - surely the greates hypocrisy is the attempts of Dublin GAA and the Croker authorities in pretending Croke Park is a neutral venue. I have previously said if Croke Park is to have any chance of being considered a neutral venue then the preferential treatment given to Dublin at the venue must stop. Having a "home" dressing room, a home supporters section (Hill 16) and warming up in front of the Home section is not what is expected at a neutral venue. Your final comment on leaving it open is the most sensible with the travelling team having a veto on the use as a home venue for Dublin. Moving the conversation a little South - Cork have two city venues. Nobody would consider Pairc Ui Chaoimh anything but a home venue for Cork. Now that the GAA have taken over responsibility for the management of PUC there is still no pretense of PUC being a neutral venue. What would Dublin's reaction be if the GAA decided to boost the PUC bank account by holding a couple of their Super 8's or even SF's in this neutral venue and Dublin ended up playing Cork there (more likely in hurling in the current climate) in a game of importance. You're very selective in your presentation of those issues but then aren't we all. Costello castigated NAMA because as everyone apart from those who benefitted hugely from NAMA would agree, on any other subject, it would be a far more justifiable and beneficial use of the Spawell to many ordinary people than anything else that would happen with it under NAMA, or if NAMA get to sell it on in the way that 'organisation' would have wanted. That was really the point he was making and if the issue hadn't involved Costello or Dublin GAA I've no doubt you and many others would be cheering even just the challenge to NAMA and the publicity it represented. At least Costello didn't want to waste resources for a monument to grandiosity or ego. Nobody 'pretends' Croker is neutral for Dublin, it is 'officially' neutral and that's simply a fact. It is also a fact that Croker is the national GAA stadium and it happens to be located where it is. If Dublin had a 20-30000 stadium to use then the league games wouldn't happen there. People are shouting for PPark to be used but then 35,000 went in for the Mayo game and that doesn't include the freebies etc. Personally for me the sensible choice again is that games above somewhere around 17,500 should be in Croker until if and when there's another stadium capable of holding at least 15,000, it is growing the game, and more people want to attend league games in Croker than want to attend in PP, it's simply a fact. Somebody mentioned Killarney not being used for some (or probably all this year) league games but that is simply Kerry's choice and their alternative stadium holds about 4,000 more than Dublin's. I've no idea about the 'home dressing room', that seems to be something that people are interpreting, assuming, and running with because it suits a certain agenda/narrative. Why would any team really care about having a particular dressing room, other than what was always the case, superstition, in which case teams will have asked for certain dressingrooms, I think I recall something of the kind being said by Micko or Paidi talking about that era when Kerry were in 11 finals in 12 years, not to mention the famous semi-final. The 'home' section thing is a bit of a nonsensical statement as the Hill is open to everyone who wants to use it, Mayo had more than half the tickets there in the last two finals they were in, no doubt in part to other counties giving their allocations to Mayo fans. As regards to the warm-up, last time I heard anything about it Croke Park spokesperson said the first team out is allocated the same end, (to avoid a repeat of silly stuff like Mayo-Dublin 2006) and that may be down to which team is drawn first in the tie or/and according to first letter of the name. As for Cork's PUC, it's simply not the national stadium. And geographically it's much further away from quite alot of places in Ireland than Croker is. If anything Thurles has more claims to being an alternative venue to Croker for some major games outside of Munster Championship due to it's location and its history. Anyway as I said before, I think other towns are missing out on big pay-days from having large crowds in town for a game. I think that should be a consideration too and I dislike corporate stadium/event process and culture. It makes it too elitist.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Mar 3, 2019 6:13:34 GMT
One thing being ignored in all of this is that people think Dublin should have a 'home' stadium capable of holding maybe 30,000 for games that otherwise wouldn't be in Croke Park. But when there is already a stadium in the city capable of holding any crowd except some All-Ireland finals what would the sense in that be? We've already got the farce of what was spent on the PUC rebuild and the state of the pitch there. Another big stadium in Dublin and the same people complaining about Croker would be straight onto another bandwagon campaign. I think that people need to be honest here and admit that this is simply most about clutching at straws from a point of view of wanting to see Dublin taken down a peg or two. People want to have their cake and eat it. When the Qtr finals were in Croke Park people didn't complain. What has changed? During the 2014 All-Ire semifinal games Kerry kicked up a storm that the replay Vs Mayo wasn't in Croker, despite it being virtually on their doorstep in Limerick, then tried to claim that Limerick was much harder to get to! There's no having this argument in normal terms! The same people going apoplectic about that replay being in Limerick are the ones saying it's unfair for Kerry and Mayo and Donegal fans to have to come to Croker for a second Super 8 game in the group that Dublin will be in for as long as they keep qualifying. How can anyone argue against such logic? When Dublin were well beatable by all the better teams in the country, all we heard was how great a place Croker was to play, and how it was "the only place to play". It was not considered any advantage to Dublin back then and clearly it wasn't as teams very often if anything raised their game playing there, especially against the locals. No real Dublin supporter will really care where the game is as long as they can get in. But the hypocrisy of so many people wanting to always have it a certain way even if that contradicts what they used to insist on or demand even is hard to listen to. Anyway there's one simple solution to the debate about capacity, which was already widely lauded all around the country such as when two Ulster teams opted to play the Ulster Final in Croke Park - let the two counties involved agree on a suitable venue for the 'third' Super 8 game. Home and away or luck of the draw doesn't work so well if you have one county with a huge stadium and another one with a small one. People used the FA Cup as comparison but this is still not the same as the All-Ire/GAA. I agree with more games played outside Crok Park btw, always have done but no matter what the structure of the draw in the S8s is, better to just leave open an option for teams to discuss venue. Rashers, with respect, I suggest you're summing up the general consensus as being something that suits your argument rather than what it actually is. Nobody is seriously suggesting that Dublin build an extra stadium, no more than they are seriously suggesting they play in Parnell Pk. It wouldn't change anything even if they did - a game played anywhere in Dublin is a home game for the Dubs and their fans. Game in Croker + game in Parnell or wherever = 2 home games, end of. People want the other game taken out out Dublin altogether. Wanting Dublin taken down a peg or 2? - no, it's wanting basic sporting fairness. Apoplectic re Limerick in 14 - not us, it was great, though a lot of us were insulted at the reason behind it. Mayo did a lot of moaning alright but then that's what they do. "It was not considered any advantage to Dublin back then" (before Dubs were super) - that old chestnut? Playing every game at home was an advantage then as much as it's an advantage now. Just because it wasn't enough to always see the Dubs across the lline doesn't mean it wasn't an advantage, of course it was. And as much for the supporters as the team of course. Well, don't we all! None of us want two games there so you won't find an argument with that really. But if the game is one that could attract 30-60000 (say), and the choices are Croker or or a stadium that holds 10-15000, or 20-30000 if a much bigger crowd, why should there not be an option to use Croker? And if the other team/county would prefer Croker as the venue anyway, why shouldn't that be a choice? Some Leinster teams in the 00s and 90s at least played alot of games in Croker because of a combination of playing against Dublin, double headers, unsuitable grounds, and huge crowds (Meath Vs Kildare sagas for example), and the LFinal is in Croker. I don't recall any counties anywhere complaining that Kildare and Meath had "an unfair advantage" when coming to play against them later in the competition. Also there have been stadiums that have a pretty mediocre pitch, and issues with handling big crowds due to the condition of the stadiums, various safety factors. These are also factors much as people might not like to hear them. Croke Park itself became not fit for purpose by the 1970s/80s. Nobody was insulted about or denied that. As I said above, and I'll give a couple of exampls, if say Dublin play Donegal or Galway in the Super 8s as the not home or away game, and if the GAA change the rule about 'one other game in Croke Park', then that game goes to Clones, or possibly Thurles, or wherever both teams agree on. What actually in any case is really the difference between the 'Croke Park' game and the old All-I Qtr final which was universally accepted to be in Croke Park? That too was an 'extra' game in Croker for Dublin, if they were in the Qtr final. Given that Dublin have already played at least some league games in Croker, some/most Leinster games (same as it ever was or at least for a long time), and one Croker 'home' game, what difference does one more actually make? Also rather than change all the rules around why not the GAA introduce a stipulation that if another county doesn't want to play the 'Croke Park Game' in Croke Park, they can request a change? Finally, about how Croke Park Vs Dublin was viewed as a venue by the better teams not so long ago, I'll assume "you're summing up the general consensus as being something that suits your argument rather than what it actually is." The media and people generally were very much agreed, Dublin did not deal with the expectation of being favourites in Croke Park against teams that were as good as them back then. (of course the truth also was that several teams were simply better than them but there were several cases in the late 80s and most of the 90s and even a few beyond where there was little between the teams but the other team got the extra bit of inspiration or whatever to win. So how could you say Meath in 91 (second best for most of those games but won), or any other year, did not produce betetr performances in Croker? Better even than their home venue at times. Donegal in 92, clear underdogs going into that final. Derry in 93, better team too but like Donegal 92 supposedly disadvantaged by lack of experience of playing in Croker. Down in 94. Meath in 96. Armagh 02. Westmeath and Laois in 03 and 04. Tyrone 05. Mayo in 06. And I've yet to see Kerry not produce their best or even not play above themselves in games Vs Dublin in Croke Park. "Our stadium" yis used to call it. Often Kerry produced performances outside Croker which were not inspired
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Mar 3, 2019 8:25:41 GMT
Scoring stats show that Dublin win by 4-5 points more than when they are on the road. It is a huge anomaly in Irish sport at the moment. The continuation of the Spring Series compounds this further. Dublin can blood and acclimatise new players at their ease throughout the league and championship games. "All teams do better at home than away" shock report finds. Dublin to be asked to play all their league games away in order to level up the playing field. Then the "huge anomaly in Irish sport" will be resolved and all will be right with the world again.
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Post by Mickmack on Mar 3, 2019 11:39:02 GMT
The thought of two Dublin teams playing each other in an All-Ireland final would drive the sane into the mountains for solitude.......... My advice is to accept it. I have long since accepted that this is the masterplan. Some of the best brains in the Country run the GAA. They are not fools. Why would so many things clearly favouring Dublin happen all at once.... in the space of a decade. Let those Dub fans who are happy with all of this have their fun while it lasts.
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Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Mar 3, 2019 14:25:44 GMT
Scoring stats show that Dublin win by 4-5 points more than when they are on the road. It is a huge anomaly in Irish sport at the moment. The continuation of the Spring Series compounds this further. Dublin can blood and acclimatise new players at their ease throughout the league and championship games. Dublin to be asked to play all their league games away in order to level up the playing fieldThey are asked to play their home games at a neutral venue which is not right. They should play their neutral games at a neutral venue though and their home games at their home venue. The big issue is whether they should use the same stadium as their neutral venue and their home venue and whether they should be allowed to use our national stadium as their home venue. Of course the complaints about the lopsided situation weren't as loud when the advantage wasn't as obvious. It's not about trying to stifle the Dubs or to get one over on them. It's about giving all teams the same chances.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Mar 3, 2019 15:17:04 GMT
"their neutral venue"
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Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Mar 3, 2019 15:36:06 GMT
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Post by Mickmack on Mar 4, 2019 22:21:07 GMT
There was a very powerful moment on TSG last night when former Waterford manager Derek McGrath spoke about how not having any home games in Munster hurt his team in 2018. He said the "Newbridge or nowhere" was an ephiphany for him and he questioned whether he had let his team down by not taking a stand.
In all the great hurling games in the Munster round robin last year, only once did the team at home lose a game.
Walsh Park will host hurling games in this years Munster championship.
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Post by glengael on Mar 5, 2019 17:06:38 GMT
There was a very powerful moment on TSG last night when former Waterford manager Derek McGrath spoke about how not having any home games in Munster hurt his team in 2018. He said the "Newbridge or nowhere" was an ephiphany for him and he questioned whether he had let his team down by not taking a stand. In all the great hurling games in the Munster round robin last year, only once did the team at home lose a game. Walsh Park will host hurling games in this years Munster championship. Thought the same thing myself as I listened to him. Tis a pity some delegates to Congress don't have even a fraction of that self awareness.
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