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Post by Ard Mhacha on Feb 25, 2019 21:51:39 GMT
Every county should nominate Croke Park as their home venue and see what happens! ‘Croke Park or nowhere’. It doesn’t have the same ring to it as ‘Newbridge or nowhere’, but I like it!
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Post by Ard Mhacha on Feb 25, 2019 21:58:36 GMT
It should have been sorted out a decade or more ago, that all Dublin home championship (and NFL) games should only be played at Parnell Park.
I’m surprised though that so many other counties voted against Donegal’s proposal!
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Post by kerrygold on Feb 25, 2019 23:02:48 GMT
They got the wording wrong on this when they said "no" county can nominate Croker as a home venue. Trying to be too clever. Lot to be said for calling a spade a spade!
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Post by westkerry18 on Feb 25, 2019 23:18:05 GMT
The Donegal motion for Dublin to play only one Super 8 game in Croke Park was heavily defeated with some very harsh words used to describe the motion including - Dublin GAA secretary John Costello slammed the motion as "divisive and mean-spirited" and said it would be a "public relations disaster" for the GAA were they to have to turn supporters away. I am at a loss to understand how this "fair play" motion was so heavily defeated and also at the acceptance of the above comments from Dublin secretary John Costello. 1/ How is a motion that seeks to democratically correct an unfair situation divisive and mean spirited. 2/ Thousands of fans are turned away from the All Ireland final every year - is it deemed a PR disaster that corporate ticket holders get prized tickets before regular match goers. 3/ Was/Is it a PR disaster that the league games against Dublin and Mayo are sold out and fans will be unable to attend while a larger capacity stadium in Killarney lies idle. Are we deluded in thinking this association is for the benefit of the grass roots supporters and that the delagate system of democracy in the association is fit for purpose? Tyrone Roscommon Dublin Donegal double header. Attendance 53,501. I don’t know I think this is an ecumenical matter
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Post by wayupnorth on Feb 26, 2019 8:07:02 GMT
It’s not about giving Dublin a leg up- it’s about the money. The Croke Park Super 8 games are a direct replacement for the old quarter finals and with Dublin in the mix there’s another guaranteed big payday. No problem with that unless it’s dressed up in pious platitudes about helping out the weaker counties. It’s about giving the stronger counties more games - the clue is in the phrase “super 8”.
Having said that the best thing about the new format (and I wasn’t a fan) turned out to be the taking of late summer games away from CP.
And as for “mean spirited “. That comment was itself the essence of mean-spiritedness.
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Post by Mickmack on Feb 27, 2019 9:51:27 GMT
Seán Moran: Fire and fury surrounding Dublin in Croke Park unfair to both sides The champions' effective residency may be unfair but it's an understandable trade-off
Seán Moran
With each passing year, as interest in the run-up to the GAA’s annual congress wanes – the move from April to February has been a factor – its capacity to cause outrage on social media appears to grow exponentially.
The rancour triggered both by the debate on whether Dublin should have two matches in Croke Park during the quarter-finals and its aftermath has been disproportionate and unfair to both sides.
Donegal’s Motion 39 at last weekend’s congress in Wexford appeared to many to be a bit curious. Its suggested prohibition on “any county” nominating Croke Park as its home venue clearly but not explicitly referred to Dublin.
Why target Dublin’s home match in the All-Ireland football round-robin rather than the “Croke Park round”, which for all other counties is a neutral venue?
The answer goes back to last summer and Donegal’s decision to query having to play Dublin in Croke Park in Phase 1 of the quarter-finals. County officers met GAA officials to “clarify” the situation. This received a firm response pointing out that the venue for the first series of matches had been set in rule as Croke Park more than a year previously.
As soon as the review had been released last November Donegal chair Mick McGrath confirmed that the county would in all likelihood challenge Dublin’s use of Croke Park as a home venue at the 2019 congress A communiqué issued afterwards did however spell out the nub of the argument: “While Donegal challenged how any team could nominate Croke Park as their home venue, it was acknowledged that there was nothing in Rule to prohibit this.”
An interim review of the championship structure was promised and duly took place but the only change advocated for the quarter-finals was the moving of the “Croke Park round” from Phase 1 to Phase 2. This was seen as part recognition of another Donegal grievance that provincial champions should have their first round-robin match at home.
As soon as the review had been released last November Donegal chair Mick McGrath confirmed that the county would in all likelihood challenge Dublin’s use of Croke Park as a home venue at the 2019 congress.
In essence they were responding to the GAA’s argument that there was no rule preventing Dublin from nominating the stadium as its home venue by trying to introduce one to that effect.
Yet there was validity in Dublin chief executive John Costello’s argument that the county’s support base requires high capacity in the All-Ireland stages – even last August’s dead rubber against Roscommon drew 33,269 to Croke Park, a crowd that couldn’t be accommodated for instance in any other Leinster venue.
He similarly had a point in referring to the 2000s – a decade when Dublin were the perfect combination of hopeful and ultimately hopeless at the top levels of the game – during which the county helped bring a fortune in gate receipts.
The zenith of the good times was 2007, the figures for which have only been exceeded once in the past 12 years, when Dublin’s matches averaged attendances of 80,000 in four of their five championship outings, as well as a guarantee they wouldn’t actually win the All-Ireland.
No-one, as Costello said, was complaining then.
There is a tendency to treat the GAA as if it were actually another professional sports body. This isn’t a reference to the association’s (frequently self-projected) status as a vital, community organisation but more to a public perception that its sole business is the organisation of elite sports events.
The All-Ireland championships and national leagues are the main vehicles for promotion and the engagement of public interest but when officials say that the GAA is primarily about the games, they don’t exclusively mean the high-profile inter-county competitions.
There is a huge infrastructure of recreational and participative sport to be organised and encouraged and the ongoing problems of facilitating clubs in something as basic as a reliable fixtures schedule is testament to those challenges.
There is more obvious scope in addressing the “Croke Park” round because the evidence is that it didn’t work on more levels than simply being unfairly advantageous to Dublin It requires funding to maintain. It’s easy to excoriate administrators for trading off a traditional unfairness in the championship – and it is unfair to have one county with a residency in Croke Park – for better revenues but, as in Leinster, unless your county is drawn against Dublin it’s easy for your own requirements to take precedence over, say, Donegal’s.
For the delegates who voted down the county’s motion, that was the calculation, however people may feel about it.
There is more obvious scope in addressing the “Croke Park” round because the evidence is that it didn’t work on more levels than simply being unfairly advantageous to Dublin.
The venue had been used with very few exceptions for all of the football quarter-finals since they were introduced in 2001. That coincided with the completion of the Croke Park redevelopment and all the fascination with the new stadium as well as an economic boom, a perfectly positive storm that drove huge attendances in the middle of the last decade.
There were signs in last year’s quarter-finals that the same spell isn’t being cast and in a way it’s understandable. The type of counties who typically make the last eight are no strangers to Croke Park so it’s not of itself an attraction. Strip out the sudden death element of the quarter-finals and there’s even less reason to attend, especially with two potentially more convenient rounds still to come.
The total attendance at last year’s round-robin quarter-finals in Croke Park was 84,291, an average of just over 42,000 as opposed to 145,738 in 2017 – excluding the Mayo-Roscommon replay.
Add in that the most conspicuously successful element of the new format was the spreading of fixtures across provincial venues and the number of memorable events that created.
Maybe there’s a case for getting rid of the Croke Park round, altogether and replacing it with a neutral round.
smoran@irishtimes.com
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Post by Mickmack on Feb 27, 2019 9:56:08 GMT
Sean Moran finishes with "Maybe there’s a case for getting rid of the Croke Park round, altogether and replacing it with a neutral round".
It would be a small step to change neutral to "neutral or home and away arrangement if both parties agreed".
Everyone would be happy enough with that.
If the Dubs are on the road to Thurles shur they might as well come to Killarney or Castlebar given that the next time the teams meet it would be in Croke Park. I would be hopeful Dublin would agree to that.
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Post by dc84 on Feb 27, 2019 11:48:14 GMT
Sean Moran finishes with "Maybe there’s a case for getting rid of the Croke Park round, altogether and replacing it with a neutral round". It would be a small step to change neutral to "neutral or home and away arrangement if both parties agreed". Everyone would be happy enough with that. If the Dubs are on the road to Thurles shur they might as well come to Killarney or Castlebar given that the next time the teams meet it would be in Croke Park. I would be hopeful Dublin would agree to that. Unlikely enough they would agree, home and away is a no go for me you could be waiting 20 yrs to get the payback! The way things are at the moment we will never play Dublin in the championship anywhere but cp hard to see either team losing in provincials for next 5 to 10 years and by that stage it will probably be a very different two tier. Neutral venues only way to go imo thurles 01 was 2 of the best occasions i have attended.
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Post by Mickmack on Feb 27, 2019 12:01:43 GMT
Sean Moran finishes with "Maybe there’s a case for getting rid of the Croke Park round, altogether and replacing it with a neutral round". It would be a small step to change neutral to "neutral or home and away arrangement if both parties agreed". Everyone would be happy enough with that. If the Dubs are on the road to Thurles shur they might as well come to Killarney or Castlebar given that the next time the teams meet it would be in Croke Park. I would be hopeful Dublin would agree to that. Unlikely enough they would agree, home and away is a no go for me you could be waiting 20 yrs to get the payback! The way things are at the moment we will never play Dublin in the championship anywhere but cp hard to see either team losing in provincials for next 5 to 10 years and by that stage it will probably be a very different two tier. Neutral venues only way to go imo thurles 01 was 2 of the best occasions i have attended. The clash of the provincial winners in the super 8 stage is the biggie. Putting that game forever in Croker is fundamentally flawed and unfair as it is de facto Dublins home ground. The view that that is the game to target is gaining traction but in the suits dont want change they will find a way to block it
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Post by dc84 on Feb 27, 2019 12:45:33 GMT
Unlikely enough they would agree, home and away is a no go for me you could be waiting 20 yrs to get the payback! The way things are at the moment we will never play Dublin in the championship anywhere but cp hard to see either team losing in provincials for next 5 to 10 years and by that stage it will probably be a very different two tier. Neutral venues only way to go imo thurles 01 was 2 of the best occasions i have attended. The clash of the provincial winners in the super 8 stage is the biggie. Putting that game forever in Croker is fundamentally flawed and unfair as it is de facto Dublins home ground. The view that that is the game to target is gaining traction but in the suits dont want change they will find a way to block it Was listening to Sean Kelly during the week and i think he said that couldnt be changed till next year due to some rule. Trying to change Dublin nominating there home ground cp was never a goer imo. I know everyone says people want to play in cp which was probably true one time now there are too many games there the aura is gone it used to be an achievement for all non leinster teams to get there . The real fun will happen if Dublins away game is meant to be in somewhere like newbridge and the cccc say that newbridge isnt suitable... do the dubs get 3 games in cp then? I hope it happens tbh to show what a farce this is
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Feb 28, 2019 1:00:44 GMT
One thing being ignored in all of this is that people think Dublin should have a 'home' stadium capable of holding maybe 30,000 for games that otherwise wouldn't be in Croke Park. But when there is already a stadium in the city capable of holding any crowd except some All-Ireland finals what would the sense in that be? We've already got the farce of what was spent on the PUC rebuild and the state of the pitch there. Another big stadium in Dublin and the same people complaining about Croker would be straight onto another bandwagon campaign.
I think that people need to be honest here and admit that this is simply most about clutching at straws from a point of view of wanting to see Dublin taken down a peg or two. People want to have their cake and eat it. When the Qtr finals were in Croke Park people didn't complain. What has changed? During the 2014 All-Ire semifinal games Kerry kicked up a storm that the replay Vs Mayo wasn't in Croker, despite it being virtually on their doorstep in Limerick, then tried to claim that Limerick was much harder to get to! There's no having this argument in normal terms!
The same people going apoplectic about that replay being in Limerick are the ones saying it's unfair for Kerry and Mayo and Donegal fans to have to come to Croker for a second Super 8 game in the group that Dublin will be in for as long as they keep qualifying. How can anyone argue against such logic? When Dublin were well beatable by all the better teams in the country, all we heard was how great a place Croker was to play, and how it was "the only place to play". It was not considered any advantage to Dublin back then and clearly it wasn't as teams very often if anything raised their game playing there, especially against the locals.
No real Dublin supporter will really care where the game is as long as they can get in. But the hypocrisy of so many people wanting to always have it a certain way even if that contradicts what they used to insist on or demand even is hard to listen to. Anyway there's one simple solution to the debate about capacity, which was already widely lauded all around the country such as when two Ulster teams opted to play the Ulster Final in Croke Park - let the two counties involved agree on a suitable venue for the 'third' Super 8 game. Home and away or luck of the draw doesn't work so well if you have one county with a huge stadium and another one with a small one. People used the FA Cup as comparison but this is still not the same as the All-Ire/GAA.
I agree with more games played outside Crok Park btw, always have done but no matter what the structure of the draw in the S8s is, better to just leave open an option for teams to discuss venue.
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Post by playitfair on Feb 28, 2019 7:40:25 GMT
Personally, loved that the Kerry mayo replay was in Limerick for two reasons. Firstly it was shorter to get to and get home from and secondly the atmosphere was quite something else.
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Post by wayupnorth on Feb 28, 2019 7:44:09 GMT
One thing being ignored in all of this is that people think Dublin should have a 'home' stadium capable of holding maybe 30,000 for games that otherwise wouldn't be in Croke Park. But when there is already a stadium in the city capable of holding any crowd except some All-Ireland finals what would the sense in that be? We've already got the farce of what was spent on the PUC rebuild and the state of the pitch there. Another big stadium in Dublin and the same people complaining about Croker would be straight onto another bandwagon campaign. I think that people need to be honest here and admit that this is simply most about clutching at straws from a point of view of wanting to see Dublin taken down a peg or two. People want to have their cake and eat it. When the Qtr finals were in Croke Park people didn't complain. What has changed? During the 2014 All-Ire semifinal games Kerry kicked up a storm that the replay Vs Mayo wasn't in Croker, despite it being virtually on their doorstep in Limerick, then tried to claim that Limerick was much harder to get to! There's no having this argument in normal terms! The same people going apoplectic about that replay being in Limerick are the ones saying it's unfair for Kerry and Mayo and Donegal fans to have to come to Croker for a second Super 8 game in the group that Dublin will be in for as long as they keep qualifying. How can anyone argue against such logic? When Dublin were well beatable by all the better teams in the country, all we heard was how great a place Croker was to play, and how it was "the only place to play". It was not considered any advantage to Dublin back then and clearly it wasn't as teams very often if anything raised their game playing there, especially against the locals. No real Dublin supporter will really care where the game is as long as they can get in. But the hypocrisy of so many people wanting to always have it a certain way even if that contradicts what they used to insist on or demand even is hard to listen to. Anyway there's one simple solution to the debate about capacity, which was already widely lauded all around the country such as when two Ulster teams opted to play the Ulster Final in Croke Park - let the two counties involved agree on a suitable venue for the 'third' Super 8 game. Home and away or luck of the draw doesn't work so well if you have one county with a huge stadium and another one with a small one. People used the FA Cup as comparison but this is still not the same as the All-Ire/GAA. I agree with more games played outside Crok Park btw, always have done but no matter what the structure of the draw in the S8s is, better to just leave open an option for teams to discuss venue. There is an inherent unfairness about Dublin getting two games in CP in the super 8s but that is not Dublin’s fault but the system that was set up to replace the old QFs. It is NOT the same as the old QFs because there ALL games were played in CP. I don’t think anyone has suggested a new 30000 seater in Dublin just so the Dubs can play a home game out of CP. As I have said before, the time to object was when the proposals were first put forward. Then it could have been much easier to replace CP with neutral venue. But isn’t the system up for review in a few years so these changes could come about then. And by the way Rashers, I think you’ll find that Kerry made very little fuss about playing in Limerick. We let the other side get on with all the huffing and puffing and overturning Lee Keegan’s suspension whilst we got about the business of winning the replay. As no doubt reflects the current Dublin management’s attitude to this phoney war.
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Post by Mickmack on Feb 28, 2019 8:27:45 GMT
Lets be honest here.....
Kerry v Mayo was a semi final in 2014. They insisted on them replaying 6 days later to keep CP free for the replay between Dublin and Donegal JUST IN CASE they drew their semi final
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Feb 28, 2019 8:45:47 GMT
Talking about Kerry Mayo is a complete red herring.
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Post by onlykerry on Feb 28, 2019 9:33:41 GMT
One thing being ignored in all of this is that people think Dublin should have a 'home' stadium capable of holding maybe 30,000 for games that otherwise wouldn't be in Croke Park. But when there is already a stadium in the city capable of holding any crowd except some All-Ireland finals what would the sense in that be? We've already got the farce of what was spent on the PUC rebuild and the state of the pitch there. Another big stadium in Dublin and the same people complaining about Croker would be straight onto another bandwagon campaign. I think that people need to be honest here and admit that this is simply most about clutching at straws from a point of view of wanting to see Dublin taken down a peg or two. People want to have their cake and eat it. When the Qtr finals were in Croke Park people didn't complain. What has changed? During the 2014 All-Ire semifinal games Kerry kicked up a storm that the replay Vs Mayo wasn't in Croker, despite it being virtually on their doorstep in Limerick, then tried to claim that Limerick was much harder to get to! There's no having this argument in normal terms! The same people going apoplectic about that replay being in Limerick are the ones saying it's unfair for Kerry and Mayo and Donegal fans to have to come to Croker for a second Super 8 game in the group that Dublin will be in for as long as they keep qualifying. How can anyone argue against such logic? When Dublin were well beatable by all the better teams in the country, all we heard was how great a place Croker was to play, and how it was "the only place to play". It was not considered any advantage to Dublin back then and clearly it wasn't as teams very often if anything raised their game playing there, especially against the locals. No real Dublin supporter will really care where the game is as long as they can get in. But the hypocrisy of so many people wanting to always have it a certain way even if that contradicts what they used to insist on or demand even is hard to listen to. Anyway there's one simple solution to the debate about capacity, which was already widely lauded all around the country such as when two Ulster teams opted to play the Ulster Final in Croke Park - let the two counties involved agree on a suitable venue for the 'third' Super 8 game. Home and away or luck of the draw doesn't work so well if you have one county with a huge stadium and another one with a small one. People used the FA Cup as comparison but this is still not the same as the All-Ire/GAA. I agree with more games played outside Crok Park btw, always have done but no matter what the structure of the draw in the S8s is, better to just leave open an option for teams to discuss venue. It is not long since Mr Costello was castigating NAMA for not gifting/subsidising the purchase of the Spawell complex to Dublin GAA to facilitate that second stadium you mention. You mention hypocrisy of people in their opinions - surely the greates hypocrisy is the attempts of Dublin GAA and the Croker authorities in pretending Croke Park is a neutral venue. I have previously said if Croke Park is to have any chance of being considered a neutral venue then the preferential treatment given to Dublin at the venue must stop. Having a "home" dressing room, a home supporters section (Hill 16) and warming up in front of the Home section is not what is expected at a neutral venue. Your final comment on leaving it open is the most sensible with the travelling team having a veto on the use as a home venue for Dublin. Moving the conversation a little South - Cork have two city venues. Nobody would consider Pairc Ui Chaoimh anything but a home venue for Cork. Now that the GAA have taken over responsibility for the management of PUC there is still no pretense of PUC being a neutral venue. What would Dublin's reaction be if the GAA decided to boost the PUC bank account by holding a couple of their Super 8's or even SF's in this neutral venue and Dublin ended up playing Cork there (more likely in hurling in the current climate) in a game of importance.
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Post by Ard Mhacha on Feb 28, 2019 14:05:34 GMT
Anyway there's one simple solution to the debate about capacity, which was already widely lauded all around the country such as when two Ulster teams opted to play the Ulster Final in Croke Park - let the two counties involved agree on a suitable venue for the 'third' Super 8 game. Home and away or luck of the draw doesn't work so well if you have one county with a huge stadium and another one with a small one. People used the FA Cup as comparison but this is still not the same as the All-Ire/GAA. The decision to play the 2004 Ulster final in Croke Park was made before the final pairings were known. While it was a novel occasion (moreso in 2004), I wasn’t for moving the final to Croke Park. Yes, more people could attend, but it meant considerable more expense for fans, particularly those from the likes of Inishowen. While Clones is a pain in the arse to get to, I still preferred it there than having to trek to Dublin.
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Post by southward on Feb 28, 2019 18:45:18 GMT
One thing being ignored in all of this is that people think Dublin should have a 'home' stadium capable of holding maybe 30,000 for games that otherwise wouldn't be in Croke Park. But when there is already a stadium in the city capable of holding any crowd except some All-Ireland finals what would the sense in that be? We've already got the farce of what was spent on the PUC rebuild and the state of the pitch there. Another big stadium in Dublin and the same people complaining about Croker would be straight onto another bandwagon campaign. I think that people need to be honest here and admit that this is simply most about clutching at straws from a point of view of wanting to see Dublin taken down a peg or two. People want to have their cake and eat it. When the Qtr finals were in Croke Park people didn't complain. What has changed? During the 2014 All-Ire semifinal games Kerry kicked up a storm that the replay Vs Mayo wasn't in Croker, despite it being virtually on their doorstep in Limerick, then tried to claim that Limerick was much harder to get to! There's no having this argument in normal terms! The same people going apoplectic about that replay being in Limerick are the ones saying it's unfair for Kerry and Mayo and Donegal fans to have to come to Croker for a second Super 8 game in the group that Dublin will be in for as long as they keep qualifying. How can anyone argue against such logic? When Dublin were well beatable by all the better teams in the country, all we heard was how great a place Croker was to play, and how it was "the only place to play". It was not considered any advantage to Dublin back then and clearly it wasn't as teams very often if anything raised their game playing there, especially against the locals. No real Dublin supporter will really care where the game is as long as they can get in. But the hypocrisy of so many people wanting to always have it a certain way even if that contradicts what they used to insist on or demand even is hard to listen to. Anyway there's one simple solution to the debate about capacity, which was already widely lauded all around the country such as when two Ulster teams opted to play the Ulster Final in Croke Park - let the two counties involved agree on a suitable venue for the 'third' Super 8 game. Home and away or luck of the draw doesn't work so well if you have one county with a huge stadium and another one with a small one. People used the FA Cup as comparison but this is still not the same as the All-Ire/GAA. I agree with more games played outside Crok Park btw, always have done but no matter what the structure of the draw in the S8s is, better to just leave open an option for teams to discuss venue. Rashers, with respect, I suggest you're summing up the general consensus as being something that suits your argument rather than what it actually is. Nobody is seriously suggesting that Dublin build an extra stadium, no more than they are seriously suggesting they play in Parnell Pk. It wouldn't change anything even if they did - a game played anywhere in Dublin is a home game for the Dubs and their fans. Game in Croker + game in Parnell or wherever = 2 home games, end of. People want the other game taken out out Dublin altogether. Wanting Dublin taken down a peg or 2? - no, it's wanting basic sporting fairness. Apoplectic re Limerick in 14 - not us, it was great, though a lot of us were insulted at the reason behind it. Mayo did a lot of moaning alright but then that's what they do. "It was not considered any advantage to Dublin back then" (before Dubs were super) - that old chestnut? Playing every game at home was an advantage then as much as it's an advantage now. Just because it wasn't enough to always see the Dubs across the lline doesn't mean it wasn't an advantage, of course it was. And as much for the supporters as the team of course.
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Post by kerrygold on Feb 28, 2019 18:48:53 GMT
Scoring stats show that Dublin win by 4-5 points more than when they are on the road. It is a huge anomaly in Irish sport at the moment. The continuation of the Spring Series compounds this further. Dublin can blood and acclimatise new players at their ease throughout the league and championship games.
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Post by Ard Mhacha on Feb 28, 2019 18:58:56 GMT
Wasn’t the Kerry Mayo replay in 2014 taken to Limerick because that American Football dung was taking place at Croke Park?
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Post by dc84 on Feb 28, 2019 21:41:28 GMT
Wasn’t the Kerry Mayo replay in 2014 taken to Limerick because that American Football dung was taking place at Croke Park? Yes poor optics from croke park there again, its ok they brought the lads from artane and stadium announcer from cp down really "added" to the whole thing
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Post by kerrygold on Mar 1, 2019 10:36:10 GMT
Analysis: Home vs Away - The numbers that highlight just how much better Dublin are at Croke Park
Frank Roche
February 28 2019
JIM GAVIN had his stock answer ready for the inevitable question about Dublin’s born-again prospects of reaching another Allianz Football League final.
"Our concentration now is on Roscommon ... it’s going to be a really tough game down there," he predicted last Saturday night.
Needless to say, many of you don’t believe him about the difficulty of Sunday’s trip to the Hyde.
You will casually overlook that Dublin have already lost twice this year, in Clones and Tralee, because an away win (priced at 1/10) is a dead cert.
You will go further, predicting that Dublin’s next three road trips - Roscommon, Cavan on March 24 and their May 25 Leinster SFC opener, either away to Wexford or against Louth at a neutral O’Moore Park - are Sky Blue shoo-ins.
And you may be right.
But even though Donegal’s motion was crushed, by an almost two-to-one vote, last Saturday, the debate about Dublin’s Croke Park ‘advantage’ hasn’t quite subsided just yet.
Whether you agree with the fairness of Dublin effectively getting two home games out of three for the Super 8s, what cannot be denied is the fact that they’re far more likely to win - and win emphatically - in Croke Park than if they were playing at an alternative venue, neutral or away.
Curveball has conducted a six-and-a-bit year trawl of Gavin’s record in league and championship, now stretching to 95 matches, and broken this down to Dublin’s success rate at HQ compared to on the road.
The results add statistical ballast to the anecdotal evidence of a team noticeably more dominant when playing in their northside fortress. That said, they aren’t half-bad away from home either and what this audit can never tell you is whether Dublin would have enjoyed the same level of success if they were playing all of their home league games in Parnell Park.
Still, here are some facts and figures from the 2013-19 period to chew on ...
Learn more 1 - Of Dublin’s 95 games under Gavin, 70 of them have been played in Croke Park - a staggeringly high 73.7pc. They have played 35 out of 56 league games at HQ; and 35 out of 39 championship ties there.
2 - Dublin have won 60, drawn five and lost five of those 70 fixtures at Croker - a win ratio of 85.7pc. Using the metric of two points for a win and one for a draw, this equates to 1.79 points per game. Their five losses came against Tyrone (2013 NFL), Cork (‘14 NFL), Donegal (‘14 SFC semi-final), Kerry (‘17 NFL final) and Monaghan (‘18 NFL).
3 - Of their 25 games beyond the Pale, either away or at a neutral venue, Dublin have won 16, drawn four and lost five - the same number of defeats as endured at HQ but from far less games, just over a third. Their away win ratio is 64pc while they earned 1.44 points per game.
4 - If you break it down further, Dublin have played 35 league games in Croker, winning 28 (for an 80pc win ratio), drawing three and losing four ... whereas their away spring record from 21 games delivered 12 triumphs (win ratio 57.1pc), four draws and five losses.
5 - In championship, Dublin have won 32 (91pc ratio), drawn two and lost one of their 35 HQ dates while winning all four road trips against Laois (‘16), Carlow (‘17), Wicklow and Tyrone (both last year).
Dub diehards will rightly argue that there’s nothing new in a team enjoying a far better home record. The compelling counter-argument is that no one gets to play so often at the one venue - their de facto home - where all the big prizes are ultimately handed out.
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1979
Full Member
Posts: 97
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Post by 1979 on Mar 1, 2019 11:42:51 GMT
One thing being ignored in all of this is that people think Dublin should have a 'home' stadium capable of holding maybe 30,000 for games that otherwise wouldn't be in Croke Park. But when there is already a stadium in the city capable of holding any crowd except some All-Ireland finals what would the sense in that be? We've already got the farce of what was spent on the PUC rebuild and the state of the pitch there. Another big stadium in Dublin and the same people complaining about Croker would be straight onto another bandwagon campaign. I think that people need to be honest here and admit that this is simply most about clutching at straws from a point of view of wanting to see Dublin taken down a peg or two. People want to have their cake and eat it. When the Qtr finals were in Croke Park people didn't complain. What has changed? During the 2014 All-Ire semifinal games Kerry kicked up a storm that the replay Vs Mayo wasn't in Croker, despite it being virtually on their doorstep in Limerick, then tried to claim that Limerick was much harder to get to! There's no having this argument in normal terms! The same people going apoplectic about that replay being in Limerick are the ones saying it's unfair for Kerry and Mayo and Donegal fans to have to come to Croker for a second Super 8 game in the group that Dublin will be in for as long as they keep qualifying. How can anyone argue against such logic? When Dublin were well beatable by all the better teams in the country, all we heard was how great a place Croker was to play, and how it was "the only place to play". It was not considered any advantage to Dublin back then and clearly it wasn't as teams very often if anything raised their game playing there, especially against the locals. No real Dublin supporter will really care where the game is as long as they can get in. But the hypocrisy of so many people wanting to always have it a certain way even if that contradicts what they used to insist on or demand even is hard to listen to. Anyway there's one simple solution to the debate about capacity, which was already widely lauded all around the country such as when two Ulster teams opted to play the Ulster Final in Croke Park - let the two counties involved agree on a suitable venue for the 'third' Super 8 game. Home and away or luck of the draw doesn't work so well if you have one county with a huge stadium and another one with a small one. People used the FA Cup as comparison but this is still not the same as the All-Ire/GAA. I agree with more games played outside Crok Park btw, always have done but no matter what the structure of the draw in the S8s is, better to just leave open an option for teams to discuss venue. It's about fairness, not sour grapes. Does it seem fair that, making the (sadly wholly reasonable) assumption that Dublin and Kerry win their respective provincial competitions for the foreseeable future, under the current structures there is almost no scenario where both teams would play each other anywhere other than CP? Further, if both teams were in the same Super 8 group, then they could conceivably meet each other twice in CP. No one is arguing here that the semi-finals or AI final should be taken out of CP, but surely letting 1 team - and 1 team only - have two home games during the Super 8s is by definition unfair?
As for Costello, for a seemingly intelligent man, he has a knack for making himself look anything but whenever he speaks.
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Post by buck02 on Mar 1, 2019 11:49:41 GMT
One thing being ignored in all of this is that people think Dublin should have a 'home' stadium capable of holding maybe 30,000 for games that otherwise wouldn't be in Croke Park. But when there is already a stadium in the city capable of holding any crowd except some All-Ireland finals what would the sense in that be? We've already got the farce of what was spent on the PUC rebuild and the state of the pitch there. Another big stadium in Dublin and the same people complaining about Croker would be straight onto another bandwagon campaign. I think that people need to be honest here and admit that this is simply most about clutching at straws from a point of view of wanting to see Dublin taken down a peg or two. People want to have their cake and eat it. When the Qtr finals were in Croke Park people didn't complain. What has changed? During the 2014 All-Ire semifinal games Kerry kicked up a storm that the replay Vs Mayo wasn't in Croker, despite it being virtually on their doorstep in Limerick, then tried to claim that Limerick was much harder to get to! There's no having this argument in normal terms! The same people going apoplectic about that replay being in Limerick are the ones saying it's unfair for Kerry and Mayo and Donegal fans to have to come to Croker for a second Super 8 game in the group that Dublin will be in for as long as they keep qualifying. How can anyone argue against such logic? When Dublin were well beatable by all the better teams in the country, all we heard was how great a place Croker was to play, and how it was "the only place to play". It was not considered any advantage to Dublin back then and clearly it wasn't as teams very often if anything raised their game playing there, especially against the locals.No real Dublin supporter will really care where the game is as long as they can get in. But the hypocrisy of so many people wanting to always have it a certain way even if that contradicts what they used to insist on or demand even is hard to listen to. Anyway there's one simple solution to the debate about capacity, which was already widely lauded all around the country such as when two Ulster teams opted to play the Ulster Final in Croke Park - let the two counties involved agree on a suitable venue for the 'third' Super 8 game. Home and away or luck of the draw doesn't work so well if you have one county with a huge stadium and another one with a small one. People used the FA Cup as comparison but this is still not the same as the All-Ire/GAA. I agree with more games played outside Crok Park btw, always have done but no matter what the structure of the draw in the S8s is, better to just leave open an option for teams to discuss venue. Thats when Dublin only played there for a couple of Leinster Championship games and if they got to the Quarter Finals and beyond. Now they play there 4 (sometimes 5) times in the league, at least twice in Leinster, twice in the Super 8s before the reach the semi finals (and final) where they will also play in Croke Park. Any rational person will agree that there is a huge advantage in this. But yourself and John Costello obviously arent rational people.
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keane
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,267
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Post by keane on Mar 1, 2019 11:53:53 GMT
It's quite simple. If Dubs had to play us in Killarney every time we met in a big match any of them who pretend they wouldn't understand it was unfair is a fool or a liar. Not to even broach the idea that the ref would almost invariably be living in Tralee.
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Post by buck02 on Mar 1, 2019 12:33:10 GMT
Just heard the stat that of the 95 games that Jim Gavin has been in charge of the Dublin footballer, 70 of these games have been in Croke Park.
35 out of 56 league games. 35 of 39 championship games in Croke Park.
Won 60 drawn 5 and lost 5 in Croke Park. Failed to win 10 games in Croke Park (14%).
Of the 25 games they have played outside Croke Park under Jim Gavin, they have failed to win 9 of those (36%).
And Comical Ali telling us we are only being mean spirited by trying to take just ONE game a year away from Croke Park.
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Post by dc84 on Mar 1, 2019 12:44:45 GMT
It's quite simple. If Dubs had to play us in Killarney every time we met in a big match any of them who pretend they wouldn't understand it was unfair is a fool or a liar. Not to even broach the idea that the ref would almost invariably be living in Tralee. The idea is actually humorous! We will have one championship game at home this year assuming we win munster. Away to clare then in thurles or cork so one quarter at home. Dubs have 2 in leinster then 2 in quarters.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Mar 1, 2019 13:13:00 GMT
Being unreasonable and mean-spirited would be talking about the semi final and final - and nobody is doing that.
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Post by Mickmack on Mar 1, 2019 14:41:29 GMT
It will be comedy gold when the GAA moves to split up Dublin and John Costello realises that he was just a patsy all along in their long term strategy.
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Post by kerrygold on Mar 1, 2019 15:03:22 GMT
Croker will be like the San Siro then, shared home ground for the two city teams...........
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