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Post by Ard Mhacha on Sept 3, 2018 22:52:17 GMT
On that same topic - Kerry 1981 had 14 of the same starters from the 1978 game, the only change was Tommy Doyle started in 1981 ahead of Pat Spillane. Spillane came on as a sub meaning all 15 players from 1978 played in 1981. Dublin had 9 of the same starters from 2015. Five of Dublin's starters yesterday were not on the panel four years ago. John Small was on the bench four years ago. Biggest change was in Dublin's forward unit with only 2 of the class of 2015 still playing yesterday - Ciaran Kilkenny and Dean Rock. I argue (and being a Kerryman who can doubt me) that the Kerry team is still the greatest as it was effectively the same team. The scary point of this is Dublin have evolved and could do a lot more than four with their horribly talented squad. Rosary and Novena's a plenty over the winter....... Kerry in the 70s/80s and their players are better remembered than Dublin will be. As you say, it was a team. Now it's a squad game. Players are more athletic but less skillful individually and more interchangeable. Dublin are a machine but Kerry had more skillful players, giving us memorable moments in time. You can't really say that about this Dublin team, but then the game has changed. Players won games back then, now it's more the system.
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Post by kerrygold on Sept 3, 2018 23:38:10 GMT
Cluxton's brilliance on the kickouts is causing a double whammy for the other teams. The copycat ripple effects sees most keepers making really bad random mistakes. Morgan's kickout for the Dublin peno was unforgivable. A harshly awarded peno but the kickout was careless with Tyrone going so well. The Donaghy goal in 2014 after a poor kickout played a major role in Kerry's win. The game is now littered with lesser keepers than Cluxton getting it badly wrong at times and very costly wrong. A double whammy that becomes an additional hidden strength for Dublin.
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 4, 2018 8:02:10 GMT
Cluxton's brilliance on the kickouts is causing a double whammy for the other teams. The copycat ripple effects sees most keepers making really bad random mistakes. Morgan's kickout for the Dublin peno was unforgivable. A harshly awarded peno but the kickout was careless with Tyrone going so well. The Donaghy goal in 2014 after a poor kickout played a major role in Kerry's win. The game is now littered with lesser keepers than Cluxton getting it badly wrong at times and very costly wrong. A double whammy that becomes an additional hidden strength for Dublin. While acknowledging Cluxtons brilliance and the skillset and manner in which he is changing the game, would you prefer to see the kickout moved back to the edge of the small "square" which would result in more long kickouts and high fielding. Some fine examples of high fielding in the minor game by both sides for example.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Sept 4, 2018 13:07:07 GMT
Thanks for the congrats lads and lasses, always enjoy the forum, and congrats to all of you for the historic five in a row. As Brolly said, "Kerry are coming for you!" Thought it was a good contest but Tyrone missed too many chances. They were massively fit etc and were still getting back to make brilliant steals and interceptions right to the end, much better than last year. If they had a great forward or two more top class ones they would win Sam, it's a big ask. Cavanagh should've had a black card. The first penalty was as clear as day. Second one was bought and a mistake from McMahon as there wasn't much threat.
Will be very fascinating to see who Kerry and Mayo get as coaching/mgmt teams and how they get along. JOC with Mayo would be interesting! And can Galway and Donegal raise it? Galway will remain a bit hampered by their hurlers being so strong. How will Kerry fare in the Kicks For Six?? 😱
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Sept 4, 2018 13:28:23 GMT
I think 'The Foray for Sé' sounds a bit better.
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dano
Senior Member
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Post by dano on Sept 4, 2018 13:29:14 GMT
Congratulations rashers and the other Dublin posters. I thought Tony Hanahoe was mad a few years ago talking about 5 IAR. Now not so much. If tyrone could kick the long range points, even some of them, they could have won it. Enjoy the Winter! The soundbites coming out of Kerry is that they don't care about the dubs getting a shot at 5. The truth is we do care and ,like '06 v Cork, our whole reputation as the greatest of all is on the line now. A fasinating year ahead in 2019.
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Post by kerrygold on Sept 4, 2018 14:02:23 GMT
Cluxton's brilliance on the kickouts is causing a double whammy for the other teams. The copycat ripple effects sees most keepers making really bad random mistakes. Morgan's kickout for the Dublin peno was unforgivable. A harshly awarded peno but the kickout was careless with Tyrone going so well. The Donaghy goal in 2014 after a poor kickout played a major role in Kerry's win. The game is now littered with lesser keepers than Cluxton getting it badly wrong at times and very costly wrong. A double whammy that becomes an additional hidden strength for Dublin. While acknowledging Cluxtons brilliance and the skillset and manner in which he is changing the game, would you prefer to see the kickout moved back to the edge of the small "square" which would result in more long kickouts and high fielding. Some fine examples of high fielding in the minor game by both sides for example. I don't know, it requires a think tank to see where we want the game to go and legislate accordingly. I like the current game as it is played at the top table by Dublin and Mayo and from Kerry v Dublin 2013 & 2016, Kerry v Mayo 2014. I liked what Donegal did in 2012 also. The problem is below the top tier and below that again. I thoroughly enjoy watching where Dublin have brought the game to, the conduct of their players (the Pillar showboating days are long gone), the way they transition all over the pitch, the work rate of their players and their ability to think their way through games and challenges. Their game at the moment boarders on total Gaelic football. The game would be exciting if 3-4 other counties could reach the same level. Kerry came very close to a six in a row in the last decade, a much more evenly competitive decade than the present one. Dublin still need to win in 2019 to win more All-Irelands than Kerry did in the '00s but they won't have contested more than Kerry's eight finals in the last decade. Tyrone in 2005 & 2008 being the hair splitters here. If you've got aspirations you want to get to the same level Dublin play at now.
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dano
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Post by dano on Sept 4, 2018 14:36:44 GMT
Congratulations to The Kerry Minors. That was historic and is a great omen for the next decade. I hope Peter Keane gets the senior job. It might keep a few of the youngsters from the dreaded Oz.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Sept 4, 2018 15:08:13 GMT
Congratulations rashers and the other Dublin posters. I thought Tony Hanahoe was mad a few years ago talking about 5 IAR. Now not so much. If tyrone could kick the long range points, even some of them, they could have won it. Enjoy the Winter! The soundbites coming out of Kerry is that they don't care about the dubs getting a shot at 5. The truth is we do care and ,like '06 v Cork, our whole reputation as the greatest of all is on the line now. A fasinating year ahead in 2019. Cheers Dano. What was '06 about? It was David Hickey predicted 5 after 2013, we all know what happened the year after! I would argue Kerry's reputation as the greatest ever team/run is already something that can be challenged by this current team/run, let the debates begin, I think a player for player discussion/comparison would be really good. I always remember Kerry gold posting here after we lost in 2014, saying Dublin had lost the aura of invincibility and would find it psychologically very hard to wrestle it back, especially with some great players ageing etc. And he was spot on....
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Sept 4, 2018 15:40:11 GMT
I think he meant 09 rather than 06.
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 4, 2018 16:20:19 GMT
Congratulations to Dublin on another great win and also to the Kerry minor on their historic five in a row. Dublin looked in very good shape Sunday and they have set a very high standard which other county's must catch up to. The big question now is who gets the Kerry managers job and try to stop Dublin in their tracks. Peter Keane is mentioned but with a backroom team selected by county board. Peter is 100% behind his backroom team as mention in resent interviews and looking at the performances of teams PK has been involved with over the last number of years it is obvious he has the right person with him.On radio last night it is fair to say JOC is looking for a roll in this county other then senior manager e.g.Director of football. What does a director of football do exactly
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 4, 2018 16:24:40 GMT
While acknowledging Cluxtons brilliance and the skillset and manner in which he is changing the game, would you prefer to see the kickout moved back to the edge of the small "square" which would result in more long kickouts and high fielding. Some fine examples of high fielding in the minor game by both sides for example. I don't know, it requires a think tank to see where we want the game to go and legislate accordingly. I like the current game as it is played at the top table by Dublin and Mayo and from Kerry v Dublin 2013 & 2016, Kerry v Mayo 2014. I liked what Donegal did in 2012 also. The problem is below the top tier and below that again. I thoroughly enjoy watching where Dublin have brought the game to, the conduct of their players (the Pillar showboating days are long gone), the way they transition all over the pitch, the work rate of their players and their ability to think their way through games and challenges. Their game at the moment boarders on total Gaelic football. The game would be exciting if 3-4 other counties could reach the same level. Kerry came very close to a six in a row in the last decade, a much more evenly competitive decade than the present one. Dublin still need to win in 2019 to win more All-Irelands than Kerry did in the '00s but they won't have contested more than Kerry's eight finals in the last decade. Tyrone in 2005 & 2008 being the hair splitters here. If you've got aspirations you want to get to the same level Dublin play at now. I have never seen a rationale for moving the kickout to the 14. Maybe twas thought that the keeper would get more height in his kick and high fielding would ensue. If it was...the opposite has happened
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 4, 2018 18:55:57 GMT
JOHN FOGARTY: Dub-proofing football is risky business for GAA Tuesday, September 04, 2018 The term ‘Tiger-proof’ entered golf’s lexicon after the aforementioned Eldrick Woods claimed the US Masters by 12 shots.
The sight of Woods hitting a wedge into the par-five 15th had Augusta National officials spluttering their ice tea all over themselves.
And so over the years the course changed. From 6,925 yards 21 years ago, it played 7,435 yards last April. These days, the grain of the fairways is cut towards the tee so as to curb roll. Bailout areas and vantage points have been filled with trees and mounds. More rough has been added.
As technology tracked Woods before moving alongside him and 300-yard-plus drives became the norm, many PGA Tour tournament courses followed suit. For the 2004 US Open, Shinnecock Hills was 6,996 yards; for this year’s second Major of the year it measured 7,445.
Woods never made too much of a fuss about how tournament organisers moved to protect their courses from him largely because lesser players also had to negotiate the tighter fairways and extended holes.
But as the GAA consider moves towards curbing some of Dublin’s strengths, it’s doubtful they won’t kick up about it.
When the kickout rule change was introduced last year so that all restarts had to clear the 20m line on top of being 13m in length, Dublin vice-chairman Mick Seavers spoke against the proposal in Special Congress.
He claimed: “We are punishing the team that wants to innovate and rewarding the teams who want to play negatively. This rewards the people that can’t play ball properly.
Now, there is a bigger change afoot. In July, we brought you news of the playing rules committee’s plans to introduce experimental rules in Gaelic football and hurling to be put into play during the 2019 pre-season competitions and Allianz Leagues. Led by Derryman David Hassan and featuring Cork secretary Frank Murphy, the group are considering the idea of all kickouts having to clear the 45m line.
Combined with the mark, such a recommendation would well and truly safeguard the art of high fielding but it would be difficult not to believe it was the next attempt to thwart Stephen Cluxton.
Consider on Sunday that Dublin didn’t lose one kickout after his early difficulties when he was aiming for targets across his half-back line. By going short most, if not every time thereafter, Dublin were able to win 29 of 31 kickouts (94%). Niall Morgan, who was more varied with his length of kicking, hit his men 18 out of 24 times (75%).
To a lesser extent, a determination to reduce the number of hand-passes might also be regarded as a move to upset Dublin given they have mastered the skill particularly in playing keep-ball at the end of games.
Six points up, the champions were at it as early as the 51st minute on Sunday but then admittedly some of it was riveting.
In all, they strung together 29 passes between Cluxton’s short kickout as the clock read 50:21 minutes and Brian Fenton’s kick sailing over the bar at 52:09. Breaking those passes down, including the kickout there were eight kicks, which would run consistent with the four hand-passes to one kick-pass statistic that was cited by the Football Review Committee in 2012.
Pass master Ciarán Kilkenny hand-passed three times in that spell including the lay-off for Fenton. Ten passes went backwards including 15m-plus efforts from Kilkenny and Con O’Callaghan, the latter deep into his own half for Jonny Cooper to restart the move.
Tyrone were as frustrated as Dublin themselves were in additional-time in the 2007 All-Ireland semi-final when Kerry had strung together 15 passes before Declan O’Sullivan’s insurance point. Watching from the sideline alongside his opposite number Pat O’Shea, Paul Caffrey could only smile — “We can’t get the ball off ye,” he told O’Shea.
Rest assured, Dublin’s means of effectively going to the corner flag won’t be as praised because the war against extended possession has well and truly begun.
At the start of this year, Pat Spillane argued the 20m kickout rule was as much an attempt to hinder Dublin as the end of the hand-pass goal was against his four-in-a-row winning Kerry team.
Remember, back in the early 1980s the GAA outlawed handpassed goals and made other changes to the rules in an effort to put the brakes on Kerry’s dominance of the All-Ireland championship. The change didn’t stop Kerry from winning more All-Ireland titles and I don’t see how the new rule will reduce Cluxton’s influence. The simple fact is that great teams and great players can adapt.
Heaven knows Gaelic football is need of repair but in attempting to improve the game, the GAA must be careful their actions are not to be interpreted as an attempt to knock Dublin off their perch. Moving the goalposts would be a cheap short-cut to levelling a playing field the GAA themselves have helped to make lopsided by means of financing.
From their ready-made dinners that are delivered to their doors two times a week to the match-day expenses afforded to their partners, Dublin players have perks other counties can only dream of. But as Cluxton alluded to in his acceptance speech, they are the best because they work the best.
Another golf phrase Woods inspired was “The Tiger Line”, given to the ambitious direction he would strike with pinpoint accuracy from the tee. For aiming so high but most importantly being able to hit those heights, Dublin shouldn’t be punished.
Make hurling the headline act
The curtain fell on another inter-county year with a drab enough football final and perhaps it is hurling’s turn to see out the season.
Although it didn’t come to fruition, when former GAA director general Páraic Duffy put forward the new Championship structures and schedules he said there was the possibility that hurling could provide the finale of deciders.
He said in January 2017: “The motion of the timing of the All-Ireland finals that will go before Congress will ask that both All-Ireland senior finals be played on or before the last Sunday in August, on a date determined by Central Council. It does not specify a particular Sunday, nor the order in which the finals would be played.
There is absolutely no reason, therefore, why Central Council could not decide to play the hurling final after the football final if it was concerned that there would be too few major hurling games in July or August.
After genuine fears hurling could be dwarfed by football in terms of quantity of games, the question now is can football raise itself to the high-quality standards of the smaller ball code. If the GAA are looking for a surer bet to finish off the inter-county calendar in style and leave everyone wanting more going into the autumn and winter, hurling is the winner.
Otherwise, they can alternate but hurling should no longer be the regular support act.
Many losers in Mayo’s latest sad chapter
A damning silence was largely the order of the day in Mayo last week.
The players keep their counsel, choosing not to commit to any statement even though there was speculation some had gripes with Stephen Rochford.
Stephen Rochford Given their previous form, an announcement, something along the lines of thanking and praising Rochford before hoping the best decision is now taken for Mayo football, would have served them well.
Instead, apart from a couple of individuals, they kept schtum and it didn’t do anything to address whispers of more unrest.
The county board’s decision not to respond to Rochford’s claim that he did not have their complete backing was also embarrassing.
Rather than show conviction, they chose to constructively dismiss the Crossmolina man.
It might be a different county board to four years ago but the same failings keep cropping up.
After his statement, Rochford’s preference for silence was understandable only to later discuss his situation on RTÉ when being interviewed by Miriam O’Callaghan.
Rochford got a raw deal from the Mayo executive but when he looks back he might regret that interview as well as other oversights like not making a substitute until the 55th minute against Kildare on that sweltering evening in Newbridge, by which stage Kildare had made three. Using just four of his six subs quota also reflected poorly on him.
The common belief is Mayo remain the best-placed team to deny Dublin the five in a row but after weeks like last week, the manner in which they do their business is appalling.
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 4, 2018 21:48:11 GMT
Seems like a very subdued run up to this years Final. I haven't been bothered by people looking for tickets this year at all. Rashers/Skyblue what's your take on it. Hi Jackiel. My take on the quietness is that the major factor has to be Mayo nor Kerry being in the final. Kerry of course as they are the pre-eminent county and the great rivalry with ourselves, plus the letdown of their early summer promise not gathering into a late summer crescendo. After the games in Munster and especially the thrilling evisceration of Cork in their all-new stadium the media and many neutrals were very sold on not just a huge Kerry challenge for Sam but also a mouthwatering prospect of all-out great skillful attacking football. Kerry's forward lines in particular were the main talking point for a while there to the point where Brolly even said some of the Dublin forwards wouldn't get into it, and he wasn't talking about O'Gara. Then came the big land of the Galway game and performance, and Kerry never raised a head of steam thereafter. So since that alot of media coverage and general talk went very flat and negative. And then you had the fact that Mayo and their bandwagon have been surrounded by a massive amount of hoopla over the last number of years. It's easy to forget perhaps the huge build-up, tension, and expectation that came with games and especially finals where they are involved. It was all-consuming and there's no doubt they had become the nation's darling team as Paul Kimmage or somebody put it. At times it has been virtually a coronation in waiting phenomenon. I've also never seen support like it, their ability to get hold of and corner the market for non-competing senior county tickets for finals was extraordinary. In 2013 they were fully expected to win, they had done their apprenticeship the previous two years, they had already beaten that Dublin team, and the concensus was they only needed to not concede early goals. They couldn't possibly lose two finals in a row again. And Dublin had a new and unproven coach and several young, unproven players, who in fact mostly did not play well on the day. And Kerry had exposed many defensive flaws in the semifinal, during which Gooch gave an exhibition of the finest 35 minutes of attacking football ever seen. And they got the perfect start to the final, and even after Dublin had put in a massive effort to get back and take the lead, Andy Moran's goal at a vital stage should have driven them home to victory. Instead they flagged and were run ragged around the middle. They should have lost by more but for Dublin being down to 12 or 13 fit players in the last 10 minutes. For me at that stage it was crystal clear that Mayo team just weren't good enough to win Sam, and yet the nation went into denial on their behalf and continued to believe and hope. Then came the dramas and tragedies of their semifinal defeats in 14 and 15. Much has been made of 'what ifs' around the games with Kerry but ask oneself the following, if they had beaten Kerry would they have beaten Donegal, not including the evidence of the previous year when a still-partying Donegal squad failed to show up at all? I very much doubt it and I'm any case their defeat to Kerry itself was yet another example of their chronic endemic culture of defeatism, delusion, denial, self-destruction,and excuses. This in itself seemed only to fuel the national soap operatic fairytale that went in their wake. Never once were they called out for their overall decline in standards of performance through the whole year since Rochford took over bar the last two games of summer as they were given excuse after excuse and free passes galore in order to try to land the big one. It had become a national obsession. Not to mention that crazy, chaotic road to the final they traversed in the last two years. The nation is both completely in withdrawals and in mourning for Mayo. Abd lastly you had the World Cup, very successful Irish rugby teams, and a great hurling championship. All factors in the general populice's sense of ennui and apathy. I think it's a pity that Monaghan didn't get through as that at least would have provided the fairytale, a huge buzz and thrill around their supporters, and probably a high-scoring and attacking final. Despite a gap of 10 years Tyrone seem like a world-weary and not enthralled County to be in the Final, even allowing for the big letdown of last year's semifinal. They should at least be revelling in the role of such big underdogs, a place that MH always loves to be. I foresee a cracking contest and wouldn't rule out a draw. If Dublin are in any way flat(and they haven't had to go near the well barely once all summer) or soft/sated then Tyrone have a right chance here. Personally speaking I've not enjoyed a buildup to a final more, the lack of hoopla and external nonsense and national sense of mission and entitlement surrounding Mayo had long ago become suffocating and insufferable. Hopefully tomorrow is nearly all about football and a celebration for both counties and the whole country on All Ireland final day. Sunday was a bloodless non event .. a stark contrast to all the Dublin v Mayo games in recent years all of which were rivetting.
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Post by thebluepanther on Sept 4, 2018 22:01:15 GMT
Thanks for the good wishes lads and commiserations to Dermot. Just delighted to get the win and not come unstuck at the final hurdle. First 20 mins were shaky , Cian wasn't right from the start with injury and because Tyrone went man on man he was really found out . Thankfully we got control of the game after Kilkenny started the come bac with a great point. I'm glad Tyrone went more offensive than last year and the size of the defeat was less. Hopefully it will encourage more teams to go more attacking. If Mickey Harte feels defensive football won't win an AllIreland and changes tactics I think it a good sign. Thankfully he didn't listen to JmcG ideas . I think next year will have a freshness to it. I'll be interested to see Galways tactics , will they persist with their game plan. Tyrone will feel they have a chance as they have a lot of young players who gained valuable experience this year and they seen what attacking football got them in the first 20mins of the final. Mayo will surely be bursting a gut under a new manager .They still have a great team. Kerry young guys will be another year older and very dangerous and it will be interesting to see what guy can get the most out of them, 5 minor titles in a row is some achievement and the Seniors will definetly reap the rewards. Dublin will relish going for 5, I feel some guys on the line mightnt be as potent next year , but I feel the guys on the pitch will get stronger. Enjoyed the banter here throughout the championship. Cheers .
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Post by Ard Mhacha on Sept 4, 2018 23:13:24 GMT
Hi Jackiel. My take on the quietness is that the major factor has to be Mayo nor Kerry being in the final. Kerry of course as they are the pre-eminent county and the great rivalry with ourselves, plus the letdown of their early summer promise not gathering into a late summer crescendo. After the games in Munster and especially the thrilling evisceration of Cork in their all-new stadium the media and many neutrals were very sold on not just a huge Kerry challenge for Sam but also a mouthwatering prospect of all-out great skillful attacking football. Kerry's forward lines in particular were the main talking point for a while there to the point where Brolly even said some of the Dublin forwards wouldn't get into it, and he wasn't talking about O'Gara. Then came the big land of the Galway game and performance, and Kerry never raised a head of steam thereafter. So since that alot of media coverage and general talk went very flat and negative. And then you had the fact that Mayo and their bandwagon have been surrounded by a massive amount of hoopla over the last number of years. It's easy to forget perhaps the huge build-up, tension, and expectation that came with games and especially finals where they are involved. It was all-consuming and there's no doubt they had become the nation's darling team as Paul Kimmage or somebody put it. At times it has been virtually a coronation in waiting phenomenon. I've also never seen support like it, their ability to get hold of and corner the market for non-competing senior county tickets for finals was extraordinary. In 2013 they were fully expected to win, they had done their apprenticeship the previous two years, they had already beaten that Dublin team, and the concensus was they only needed to not concede early goals. They couldn't possibly lose two finals in a row again. And Dublin had a new and unproven coach and several young, unproven players, who in fact mostly did not play well on the day. And Kerry had exposed many defensive flaws in the semifinal, during which Gooch gave an exhibition of the finest 35 minutes of attacking football ever seen. And they got the perfect start to the final, and even after Dublin had put in a massive effort to get back and take the lead, Andy Moran's goal at a vital stage should have driven them home to victory. Instead they flagged and were run ragged around the middle. They should have lost by more but for Dublin being down to 12 or 13 fit players in the last 10 minutes. For me at that stage it was crystal clear that Mayo team just weren't good enough to win Sam, and yet the nation went into denial on their behalf and continued to believe and hope. Then came the dramas and tragedies of their semifinal defeats in 14 and 15. Much has been made of 'what ifs' around the games with Kerry but ask oneself the following, if they had beaten Kerry would they have beaten Donegal, not including the evidence of the previous year when a still-partying Donegal squad failed to show up at all? I very much doubt it and I'm any case their defeat to Kerry itself was yet another example of their chronic endemic culture of defeatism, delusion, denial, self-destruction,and excuses. This in itself seemed only to fuel the national soap operatic fairytale that went in their wake. Never once were they called out for their overall decline in standards of performance through the whole year since Rochford took over bar the last two games of summer as they were given excuse after excuse and free passes galore in order to try to land the big one. It had become a national obsession. Not to mention that crazy, chaotic road to the final they traversed in the last two years. The nation is both completely in withdrawals and in mourning for Mayo. Abd lastly you had the World Cup, very successful Irish rugby teams, and a great hurling championship. All factors in the general populice's sense of ennui and apathy. I think it's a pity that Monaghan didn't get through as that at least would have provided the fairytale, a huge buzz and thrill around their supporters, and probably a high-scoring and attacking final. Despite a gap of 10 years Tyrone seem like a world-weary and not enthralled County to be in the Final, even allowing for the big letdown of last year's semifinal. They should at least be revelling in the role of such big underdogs, a place that MH always loves to be. I foresee a cracking contest and wouldn't rule out a draw. If Dublin are in any way flat(and they haven't had to go near the well barely once all summer) or soft/sated then Tyrone have a right chance here. Personally speaking I've not enjoyed a buildup to a final more, the lack of hoopla and external nonsense and national sense of mission and entitlement surrounding Mayo had long ago become suffocating and insufferable. Hopefully tomorrow is nearly all about football and a celebration for both counties and the whole country on All Ireland final day. Sunday was a bloodless non event .. a stark contrast to all the Dublin v Mayo games in recent years all of which were rivetting. I thought it lacked intensity and atmosphere. Definitely didn't feel like an AI final. Even the final whistle and aftermath. It was weird. Can't really find another word for it. Maybe it's just that Dublin have won so many, that the euphoria and outpouring of joy is lessened with more and more wins.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Sept 5, 2018 8:29:39 GMT
Hi Jackiel. My take on the quietness is that the major factor has to be Mayo nor Kerry being in the final. Kerry of course as they are the pre-eminent county and the great rivalry with ourselves, plus the letdown of their early summer promise not gathering into a late summer crescendo. After the games in Munster and especially the thrilling evisceration of Cork in their all-new stadium the media and many neutrals were very sold on not just a huge Kerry challenge for Sam but also a mouthwatering prospect of all-out great skillful attacking football. Kerry's forward lines in particular were the main talking point for a while there to the point where Brolly even said some of the Dublin forwards wouldn't get into it, and he wasn't talking about O'Gara. Then came the big land of the Galway game and performance, and Kerry never raised a head of steam thereafter. So since that alot of media coverage and general talk went very flat and negative. And then you had the fact that Mayo and their bandwagon have been surrounded by a massive amount of hoopla over the last number of years. It's easy to forget perhaps the huge build-up, tension, and expectation that came with games and especially finals where they are involved. It was all-consuming and there's no doubt they had become the nation's darling team as Paul Kimmage or somebody put it. At times it has been virtually a coronation in waiting phenomenon. I've also never seen support like it, their ability to get hold of and corner the market for non-competing senior county tickets for finals was extraordinary. In 2013 they were fully expected to win, they had done their apprenticeship the previous two years, they had already beaten that Dublin team, and the concensus was they only needed to not concede early goals. They couldn't possibly lose two finals in a row again. And Dublin had a new and unproven coach and several young, unproven players, who in fact mostly did not play well on the day. And Kerry had exposed many defensive flaws in the semifinal, during which Gooch gave an exhibition of the finest 35 minutes of attacking football ever seen. And they got the perfect start to the final, and even after Dublin had put in a massive effort to get back and take the lead, Andy Moran's goal at a vital stage should have driven them home to victory. Instead they flagged and were run ragged around the middle. They should have lost by more but for Dublin being down to 12 or 13 fit players in the last 10 minutes. For me at that stage it was crystal clear that Mayo team just weren't good enough to win Sam, and yet the nation went into denial on their behalf and continued to believe and hope. Then came the dramas and tragedies of their semifinal defeats in 14 and 15. Much has been made of 'what ifs' around the games with Kerry but ask oneself the following, if they had beaten Kerry would they have beaten Donegal, not including the evidence of the previous year when a still-partying Donegal squad failed to show up at all? I very much doubt it and I'm any case their defeat to Kerry itself was yet another example of their chronic endemic culture of defeatism, delusion, denial, self-destruction,and excuses. This in itself seemed only to fuel the national soap operatic fairytale that went in their wake. Never once were they called out for their overall decline in standards of performance through the whole year since Rochford took over bar the last two games of summer as they were given excuse after excuse and free passes galore in order to try to land the big one. It had become a national obsession. Not to mention that crazy, chaotic road to the final they traversed in the last two years. The nation is both completely in withdrawals and in mourning for Mayo. Abd lastly you had the World Cup, very successful Irish rugby teams, and a great hurling championship. All factors in the general populice's sense of ennui and apathy. I think it's a pity that Monaghan didn't get through as that at least would have provided the fairytale, a huge buzz and thrill around their supporters, and probably a high-scoring and attacking final. Despite a gap of 10 years Tyrone seem like a world-weary and not enthralled County to be in the Final, even allowing for the big letdown of last year's semifinal. They should at least be revelling in the role of such big underdogs, a place that MH always loves to be. I foresee a cracking contest and wouldn't rule out a draw. If Dublin are in any way flat(and they haven't had to go near the well barely once all summer) or soft/sated then Tyrone have a right chance here. Personally speaking I've not enjoyed a buildup to a final more, the lack of hoopla and external nonsense and national sense of mission and entitlement surrounding Mayo had long ago become suffocating and insufferable. Hopefully tomorrow is nearly all about football and a celebration for both counties and the whole country on All Ireland final day. Sunday was a bloodless non event .. a stark contrast to all the Dublin v Mayo games in recent years all of which were rivetting. Not for the competing counties nor the more objective eye it wasn't. And Tyrone did alot right. Considering they really lack for top quality forwards of the type you need 2 or 3 of to win Sam they did most other things to a very high standard. Their tactics were way ahead of last year. If Morgan was a bit more reliable they would have everything except the extra level in the forwards. It wasn't close enough to match the recent two finals but it had alot of great football, was highly competitive, and was well ahead in terms of watchability of finals such as 04, 06, and 07. It was similar to 09, a 'good' final.
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 5, 2018 9:47:35 GMT
rashers...2009 is a good comparison to last sunday.
I dont think i ever rewatched the 04 06 and 07 finals. The best games from that period with Kerry were 06 v Armagh, 07 v Dublin and several games v Cork and the 05 and 08 finals.
Anyway i think you might become more objective about Mayo as time moves on especially if Dublin pull further away from the pack.
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Post by Kingdomson on Sept 5, 2018 9:53:03 GMT
Darragh Ó Sé: Hats off to Dublin – they’re a country mile better than the rest
It’s a long time since I can remember the atmosphere in the aftermath of an All-Ireland final being like this. Dublin are so far ahead of everybody that it seems to have taken all the air out of the sport. It’s just so hard to see where their challenge is going to come from.
Sitting here today, Mayo and Kerry don’t even have a manager between them, Tyrone, Galway and Donegal were all dealt with handily by Jim Gavin’s team, and Monaghan couldn’t beat Tyrone when it mattered, so what chance would they have against the Dubs? Cork are a mess, Roscommon and Kildare lost four games apiece in the championship and, after that, you’re well into the also-rans.
You have to take your hat off to Dublin. They are a country mile better than everybody. They are at the pinnacle of the game in every aspect – skills, physicality, decision-making, game-management. It’s a pleasure to watch them. it would make you itch to be young enough to go out there against them and see what it’s like to try to perform to that standard.
I sometimes try to explain the top level of inter-county football like this. Everything comes down to speed. I don’t really mean speed in your legs, although that’s obviously a big part of it. What I mean is that your ability to survive and thrive at the top level is totally dependent on how quickly you can do the right thing in any given situation.
Let’s say you’re a good footballer in whatever county. You do well for your club. Your attitude is good. You eat properly, you do your gym-work and a bit more besides. The word goes around that you’re a leader, you’re made of the right stuff. County championship comes around and you stand out in a few games. You’re thinking quicker than the players you’re up against, getting to the right place quicker, seeing a killer pass when everyone else thinks you’re bound to shoot.
Next thing you know, you’re in with the county. You’re the sort of player they need. That’s the next step and you’ve earned every bit of it. And you get there and everything is that step quicker. You do a kicking drill and you’re pinging balls into fellas’ chests and it’s all fine, but then the speed goes up and you hit one astray and now you’re like yer man in Tin Cup, shanking his shot and turning around to the crowd and going, ‘Who hit that? Anyone see?’
The little jink you use to get away from club players works the first time you try it in county training, but not the second. You have to learn to do it quicker, not to signpost it, to only use it when it’s going to work. Bit by bit, you learn what you can and can’t do. And your rise up through the levels – squad man, matchday 26 man, league man, championship man – simplifies in a fairly ruthless way. It comes down to what you can do well quickly.
Look around that Dublin team. Start with Stephen Cluxton. Everybody knows he changed the game for goalkeepers with his kick-outs, but forget about his accuracy for a second – the one thing he is always, always trying to do is get the ball away quickly. Fast ball, fast ball, short, long, whatever. His primary thought is to get Dublin moving. Why? To test the opposition to see what they can do when the pace of the game is high.
Go through the rest of them. Again, I’m not just talking about the raw speed of the likes of Jack McCaffrey or Eoin Murchan or Paul Mannion. Obviously, those are major assets too, but I’m talking here about a more general sense of quickness. You wouldn’t say James McCarthy looks like the fastest man in the game but when does he do anything at less than full tilt? He gets on the ball and suddenly, he is a double-decker bus that has to be stopped. Good luck with that.
When the pace got ratcheted up, Tyrone’s cracks started to appear
Or take someone like Dean Rock. Again, you wouldn’t say he was the speediest Dublin forward by any stretch of the imagination. But go back and look at how quickly he took his shots for those two points in the first half against Tyrone when Niall Morgan’s kick-outs came under pressure after the first goal. Bang-bang, no dithering, no worrying about the two frees he’d missed earlier. Just split-second, no messing, over the bar.
This was the glaring difference between the teams on Sunday. When the pace got ratcheted up, Tyrone’s cracks started to appear. All-Ireland final day is the top of the pile. That journey that started off with you getting called into the county panel because you were doing well for the club, this is where it was leading to all the time. This is where that basic requirement to be able to do the things that make you a good footballer – and most of all, do them quickly – gets its ultimate test. Chasing pack
Tyrone don’t have bad footballers. No more than Galway or Kerry or Monaghan or Mayo or any of the other chasing pack have bad footballers. You don’t get to survive or prosper at this level if you’re not a real talent. But when the gas gets turned up high and everything starts happening that half-second quicker than it has before, that’s when you get found out.
There was a passage of play on Sunday, just after Jack McCaffrey put Dublin 1-5 to 0-6 ahead about 10 minutes short of half-time. Tyrone got the kick-out away – quickly, as they had to – and Conor Meyler played a ball up to Peter Harte on the Dublin 45. Harte collected it at the right-wing forward position with Jonny Cooper shadowing him. Cian O’Sullivan was in the area but his hamstring had gone by this stage so he wasn’t moving freely; so not only was he not threat to Harte but he was no use as a sweeper either.
The upshot of it all was that as Harte collected the ball, Connor McAliskey was one-on-one with Philly McMahon standing on the 20-metre line dead straight in front of the Dublin goal. The only other person inside the Dublin 45 was Cluxton. McCaffrey was still getting back after his point and for once, Dublin were open.
You could tell that Harte knew this. Tyrone had been under the cosh for the previous seven or eight minutes but this was their chance to turn the game back in their favour. Harte is a smart player – one of the real leaders in the Tyrone team – and you could see he recognised the moment. If he could come up with the right ball into McAliskey and if he could deliver it quickly, there was a goal on. Bullet ball
But in his rush to get the ball in, he made a mess of it. He tried to play a bullet ball in with the outside of his boot but got a bad connection and screwed it off out to the side. From a starting point in front of the goals, McAliskey had to sprint after it and ended up sliding like a soccer player trying to put it out for a sideline about four yards from the corner flag. He didn’t manage it and, as Cluxton was lining up to take the kick-out, O’Sullivan went off injured. That small window of weakness in the Dublin defence was slammed shut.
I don’t want to focus on one mistake – anybody can give a bad ball. But that one in particular felt like it summed up the distance between Dublin and the rest for me. Harte was able to do the basics under pressure – make the smart run, draw the defenders to make the space, realise that the big moment in the game was on. But when it came down to it, he didn’t execute.
Against the Dubs, you don’t get a second go at that. From the kick-out, Cooper went down on a breaking ball, took a push in the back from a helpful Tyrone player, got to his feet and played a quick free as the three Tyrone lads around him switched off and next thing you know, Dublin had their second goal.
Those passages of play just go to show the difference. You have to do the right thing quickly against Dublin because you can be in no doubt they will do the right thing quickly against you. If Sunday taught us nothing else, it’s that Mayo were some operators to be able to go toe-to-toe with them over the past few years.
But Mayo have their own problems now. And, as far as I can see, everyone else is a mile off.
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Post by dc84 on Sept 5, 2018 10:13:36 GMT
Sunday was a bloodless non event .. a stark contrast to all the Dublin v Mayo games in recent years all of which were rivetting. Not for the competing counties nor the more objective eye it wasn't. And Tyrone did alot right. Considering they really lack for top quality forwards of the type you need 2 or 3 of to win Sam they did most other things to a very high standard. Their tactics were way ahead of last year. If Morgan was a bit more reliable they would have everything except the extra level in the forwards. It wasn't close enough to match the recent two finals but it had alot of great football, was highly competitive, and was well ahead in terms of watchability of finals such as 04, 06, and 07. It was similar to 09, a 'good' final. I thought 09 was poor as was 14,15 and to a lesser extent 11 . 00 v galway both games were excellent 05 and 08 were good too imo nothing to do with results either! Last 2 years were excellent also. This years was just as bad as 04,06,07 in my objective opinon for the neutral. Some great scores etc by one team who were a class above their oposition. Also on tyrone i think they are much the same as the last time we played them in 15, shaky goalie, fit , organised, but with no really good scoring forward so they just need 5-6 new top quality players and they will be able to match Dublin. Ie new goalie (he wont improve) total new ff line a centre forward a better midfielder. Easily done 😀
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Post by kerrygold on Sept 5, 2018 13:10:46 GMT
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Post by kerrygold on Sept 5, 2018 13:16:34 GMT
I don't know, it requires a think tank to see where we want the game to go and legislate accordingly. I like the current game as it is played at the top table by Dublin and Mayo and from Kerry v Dublin 2013 & 2016, Kerry v Mayo 2014. I liked what Donegal did in 2012 also. The problem is below the top tier and below that again. I thoroughly enjoy watching where Dublin have brought the game to, the conduct of their players (the Pillar showboating days are long gone), the way they transition all over the pitch, the work rate of their players and their ability to think their way through games and challenges. Their game at the moment boarders on total Gaelic football. The game would be exciting if 3-4 other counties could reach the same level. Kerry came very close to a six in a row in the last decade, a much more evenly competitive decade than the present one. Dublin still need to win in 2019 to win more All-Irelands than Kerry did in the '00s but they won't have contested more than Kerry's eight finals in the last decade. Tyrone in 2005 & 2008 being the hair splitters here. If you've got aspirations you want to get to the same level Dublin play at now. I have never seen a rationale for moving the kickout to the 14. Maybe twas thought that the keeper would get more height in his kick and high fielding would ensue. If it was...the opposite has happened Thinkering with the kickout won't close the widening gap as Dublin pull away. They are moving to a place now where they can succeed without Cluxton, same as BB, DC, PF, PA etc. The sum of all Dublin's part are far more potent than the loss of obsolete individual players from the setup.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Sept 5, 2018 13:19:29 GMT
Life is too short to read Ewan MacKenna.
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 5, 2018 15:30:30 GMT
Imagine the furore on the Joe Duffy show if Enda Kenny, when Taoiseach, had ordained that €1M of taxpayers money would go towards Mayo GAA to help them with the all ireland.
There is no provision that i am aware of to put an end to the 1m a year going to Dublin from public funds even though they are now virtually invincible.
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 5, 2018 16:01:21 GMT
I have never seen a rationale for moving the kickout to the 14. Maybe twas thought that the keeper would get more height in his kick and high fielding would ensue. If it was...the opposite has happened Thinkering with the kickout won't close the widening gap as Dublin pull away. They are moving to a place now where they can succeed without Cluxton, same as BB, DC, PF, PA etc. The sum of all Dublin's part are far more potent than the loss of obsolete individual players from the setup. I was talking about trying to retain high fielding as a core skill in the game. Not about stopping Dublin. Dublin would still be the best at high fielding anyway...Fenton and McCarthy.
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Post by Kingdomson on Sept 5, 2018 17:48:57 GMT
Air gone out of the sport, indeed! A depressing assessment by the O'Sé's all things considered. www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/toms-s-with-no-serious-rival-in-sight-dynamic-dublin-are-looking-unstoppable-37278954.htmlTomás is on the same page as Darragh. Moreover, Tomás sees any possible All Ireland win in the future by another challenger and it's not foreseeable at the moment who that challenger might actually be, as an anomaly, like Kerry's win against the head in 2014. Tomás basically sees Dublin bouncing back in such a scenario and just winning more All Ireland's on a regular basis and more back to backs and so on. When the O'Sé's are throwing their hat at this, you just know we're in deep trouble. Kerry's fortunes have always been cyclical and will continue to be but winning as much? Not likely. However, as has been well spoken about, Dublin have got their house in order to such extent they're basically regenerating year in and year out and going nowhere. People hanging their hat on Cluxton (great as he) retiring and other defenders calling it a day will be waiting a long time because I don’t see Dublin's standards being allowed to drop. Winning 6 All Ireland’s inside the same decade is unprecedented and it must be clear to all that Dublin will over take our place as market leaders of gaelic football probably within the next 15 years, this is the type of domination that is now facing us.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 18:27:03 GMT
Sunday was a bloodless non event .. a stark contrast to all the Dublin v Mayo games in recent years all of which were rivetting. Not for the competing counties nor the more objective eye it wasn't. And Tyrone did alot right. Considering they really lack for top quality forwards of the type you need 2 or 3 of to win Sam they did most other things to a very high standard. Their tactics were way ahead of last year. If Morgan was a bit more reliable they would have everything except the extra level in the forwards. It wasn't close enough to match the recent two finals but it had alot of great football, was highly competitive, and was well ahead in terms of watchability of finals such as 04, 06, and 07. It was similar to 09, a 'good' final. It was over after as a contest after 25 minutes. I would compare with the 04 final where Mayo made the good start but got reeled in and a Kerry goal after 25 killed the game. Kerry were a point up with 10 minutes to go in 2009. This years final is not even close to this. I am sure you found it exciting but most objective people didn’t.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 18:42:01 GMT
The disappointment of the final is magnified by the fact that Dublin were never put to the pin of their collar in any game. That is down to the brilliance of Dublin. At least in 04,06,07 Kerry had some very tight games even if the final failed to excite the neutral.
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Post by skybluezone on Sept 5, 2018 19:44:30 GMT
The disappointment of the final is magnified by the fact that Dublin were never put to the pin of their collar in any game. That is down to the brilliance of Dublin. At least in 04,06,07 Kerry had some very tight games even if the final failed to excite the neutral. Would agree. Got a bit uncomfortable in Omagh for a few mins but overall it was a stress free year. Could also have done without Philly giving a pen away on Sunday. Hard to know what to make of it all going forward. Feels a bit surreal to look around at traditional challengers to see they have their own issues before they are in a position to seriously go after Dublin. But it only takes a couple of things to go off kilter and all bets are off again. Cluxton retirement, Fenton or Kilkenny long term injury really throws the cat among the pigeons.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 20:03:20 GMT
The disappointment of the final is magnified by the fact that Dublin were never put to the pin of their collar in any game. That is down to the brilliance of Dublin. At least in 04,06,07 Kerry had some very tight games even if the final failed to excite the neutral. Would agree. Got a bit uncomfortable in Omagh for a few mins but overall it was a stress free year. Could also have done without Philly giving a pen away on Sunday. Hard to know what to make of it all going forward. Feels a bit surreal to look around at traditional challengers to see they have their own issues before they are in a position to seriously go after Dublin. But it only takes a couple of things to go off kilter and all bets are off again. Cluxton retirement, Fenton or Kilkenny long term injury really throws the cat among the pigeons. Fingers crossed😉😉😉
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