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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 20:53:19 GMT
We will improve when the county panel are playing county league and county championship during the summer instesd of being stuck behind closed doors in Killarney. Have the Dublin players turned out for their clubs? |
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Aug 27, 2017 20:55:45 GMT
Watching Dublin toy with Tyrone, speed seems to me to be the most important platform on which they build their game. There are many other key strings to their bow, skill, decision making, scoring, tackling, but all executed with speed and that is what is really derailing their opponents from the first minutes of every game, There are no slow players in Dublin's squad that I'm aware of. Our much battered full back line whilst malfunctioning individually is not helped by lack of protection due to our inability to withstand runners, in this case Mayo runners. Mayo had more pace and strength that made us struggle to make incisions through their half back line. If a Mayo player got past our back, he was gone, our lads mostly got to the side but still harried by the opponent taken on. With all that blurb. On the current squad:
Donaghy to retire - there's a reliance on him we need to let go. A legend.
Sheehan to retire - too slow, another great servant.
Donnacha- to retire - a legend, but we have a reliance on him like with Donaghy. Maybe still has a part role but we're delaying the inevitable.
Maher - maybe 1-2 more years as cover only.
Killian - maybe 1-2 more years competing for time in half back line. Never to be considered for full back line again.
Lyne - the worst call yesterday. He is not a back, full stop. O'Connor's goal won the game. Maybe stays to compete for time in half forwards but he does not have enough presence in games for me.
Barry and Moran are our best two mids for now but without intending to open worm cans, I don't think either have acceptable pace to really threaten Dublin. So we need to find someone faster.
Mikey - big heart, inconsistent. Squad player only.
Buckley - fine player but is too slow for his position, squad player
BJK - good impact sub only.
Darren - I think we've underused him and he should really have been a starter much more. I think he has 1 maybe 2 good years still in him. He has great speed, use it appropriately.
Griffin - more of an attacking player, not a full back. Certainly worth trying in half backs
Fionn - lovely player but he's too small and not strong or tenacious enough, so where can he play? Squad player
Core
Ryan and Murphy for keepers
Enright - he's still a quality defender despite two nightmares
Murphy
Crowley
JOD
Paul Geaney
Morley
Stevie
Moran
Barry
To transition or not:
Jason Foley - need to do everything with him to make a full back
Ronan Shanahan
Tom O'Sullivan
Sean O'Shea
Gavin Crowley
NEW
David Clifford
Reasonable template? Please fill in missing names, I've forgotten or just don't know
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 27, 2017 21:04:44 GMT
There is a difference however between an excited "*" and sustained venom. You really are a sensitive soul😀 Maybe you'd prefer us to behave like this:  |
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 27, 2017 21:10:37 GMT
We have to be a little wary of the minor success.
Are these winning teams:
a) good teams or
b) good players.
For the seniors, the first choice isn't much good; we need b).
We don't want to be like Laois: more like Kerry 1998-2004.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 21:12:18 GMT
You really are a sensitive soul😀 Maybe you'd prefer us to behave like this: 😂😂😂poor baby |
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Post by pintpleasejohn on Aug 27, 2017 21:13:25 GMT
1. Shane Murphy 2. Tom Sullivan 3. Tadgh Morley 4. Ronan shanahan 5. Brian begley 6. Peter Crowley 7. Paul Murphy 8. David Moran 9. Jack Barry 10. Stephen o brien 11. Seanie Shea 12. Jack savage 13. David Clifford 14. Paul Geaney 15. James I like it. Not sure Morley is a full back though. Fair point, I just feel the mark griffin at full back idea has been tried and tested for too long now with too little results. At that there were definite signs yesterday that Morley seemed to be out of his depth from a defensive aspect. Who would you like to see at full back? |
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Post by Kingdomson on Aug 27, 2017 21:18:48 GMT
We have to be a little wary of the minor success. Are these winning teams: a) good teams or b) good players. For the seniors, the first choice isn't much good; we need b). We don't want to be like Laois: more like Kerry 1998-2004. You make a good point. The other consideration is we know skills will not be an issue but do we have enough players with the phsyical size and pace to cope with demands at the elite level? It takes a while to get there doesn't it? |
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 27, 2017 21:20:49 GMT
Maybe you'd prefer us to behave like this: 😂😂😂poor baby To get serious for a second, I have no problem whatsoever with the ordinary language that people use. * sake, bollocks ref, he's *ing *, etc. The problem is when individuals come in and from the second minute to the last engage in this stuff without pause. I have a problem with that and have once or twice asked people to shut the * up there are children around. Let me put it this way: the way people carry on and talk in pubs is fine. No problem with that and I have no problem with children in pubs. But grown men shouting and roaring in aggressive tones: no. Maybe you haven't come across the excesses of bad behaviour that are occasionally seen at our games. Then again maybe you think it was OK for us to throw projectiles at the referee last year. If that makes me sensitive, or a snowflake, or what have you that is fine by me. I know which way I would much rather be. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 21:27:13 GMT
❄️❄️❄️
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 21:34:10 GMT
I think certain fellas need to go or they need to be told their services are no longer required
Brian Kelly - simply not up to the standard required - could name 3/4 keepers better than him at club level in Kerry
Donaghy - served his county well but think the tank is empty and teams have found a way to play against him
Walsh - again tank is empty - great servant but time for change
Darren - as with Walsh great player in his day - in current day his pace running into defences at top level ineffective
Young - been around the panel for long time best days behind him - time to try out Gavin Crowley or Gavin White
Bring in your Beaglaiochs Dave Clifford Gavin White Killian Spillane Sean O Shea Shane Ryan - time to blood some of the younger fellas
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 27, 2017 21:39:04 GMT
That's two years in a row that Peter Crowley has come out on the wrong side of a huge call by Gough . That second yellow wasn't a yellow. Just four points in it at that stage.
The extra man meant a comfortable closing out of the game by Mayo.
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peanuts
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Post by peanuts on Aug 27, 2017 21:55:55 GMT
Just showed Darren's incident on TSG there. Absolutely disgraceful decision
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 27, 2017 22:07:05 GMT
Just showed Darren's incident on TSG there. Absolutely disgraceful decision That was the linesmans call. Just a shocking decision |
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Post by southward on Aug 27, 2017 22:12:47 GMT
All has gone quiet with mark since his debut . He is back with the reserves now. The next 12 months will tell a lot. What else has diarmuid Murphy done on the coaching front? A few other names to throw out there would be Donal daly, mike quirke, Declan, Tommy griffin. Not saying they are the next manager but just guys who could be involved. winter - when quoting and replying to a post, you can just type your reply in the same box, directly after the [/quote] symbol. That way you don't make two posts out of it. |
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Post by kerryfanatic on Aug 27, 2017 22:13:50 GMT
To get serious for a second, I have no problem whatsoever with the ordinary language that people use. * sake, bollocks ref, he's *ing *, etc. The problem is when individuals come in and from the second minute to the last engage in this stuff without pause. I have a problem with that and have once or twice asked people to shut the * up there are children around. Let me put it this way: the way people carry on and talk in pubs is fine. No problem with that and I have no problem with children in pubs. But grown men shouting and roaring in aggressive tones: no. Maybe you haven't come across the excesses of bad behaviour that are occasionally seen at our games. Then again maybe you think it was OK for us to throw projectiles at the referee last year. If that makes me sensitive, or a snowflake, or what have you that is fine by me. I know which way I would much rather be. I would agree, it's not right shouting profanities or abuse especially when kids are around. There is certain child designated areas in croker and people should have more cop on to what's around them. Those who don't I have little respect for!!! |
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Post by kerryfanatic on Aug 27, 2017 22:16:24 GMT
Just showed Darren's incident on TSG there. Absolutely disgraceful decision That was the linesmans call. Just a shocking decision No wonder Darren was so upset. A big call that went against us. He can make a big impact in a game in full forward where we needed it. I think does decisions certainly didn't help kerry yesterday! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 22:16:52 GMT
The kids will be fine. It is the parents i worry about.
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Post by southward on Aug 27, 2017 22:18:03 GMT
Three times I can recall Gough reffing us - v Cork in Tralee a couple of years ago, last year v Dublin and yesterday. On all three occasions, he's f*cked us over.
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Post by kerryfanatic on Aug 27, 2017 22:22:16 GMT
The kids will be fine. It is the parents i worry about. They shouldn't be subjected to it. It should be a family day out but some fans take it too far.I remember at one match where fans were shouting out really derogatory things about one of our players a few years back. It's not on. No one deserves that type of abuse and it wasn't pleasant to listen to as a kerry fan also. |
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Aug 27, 2017 22:23:19 GMT
1. Shane Murphy 2. Tom Sullivan 3. Tadgh Morley 4. Ronan shanahan 5. Brian begley 6. Peter Crowley 7. Paul Murphy 8. David Moran 9. Jack Barry 10. Stephen o brien 11. Seanie Shea 12. Jack savage 13. David Clifford 14. Paul Geaney 15. James I like it. Not sure Morley is a full back though. Fair point, I just feel the mark griffin at full back idea has been tried and tested for too long now with too little results. At that there were definite signs yesterday that Morley seemed to be out of his depth from a defensive aspect. Who would you like to see at full back? Jason Foley |
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pillar
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Post by pillar on Aug 27, 2017 22:29:37 GMT
Biggest fault against is we sacrificed our team structure. If JOD is not on (a baffling decision anyway) how can you justify replacing him with a rookie defender.You're not replacing like with like.Remember we took him off in 2015 final and he our top scorer from play,took off Geaney last year for another defender and we chasing the game.Think EF has a conservative and negative streak in big games which doesn't play to our strengths. I'd rather have lost yesterday with a back line holding its shape,forwards tacking on the front foot and tearing into game.Instead we got a half system and players lost in the running of it.
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Hicser
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Post by Hicser on Aug 27, 2017 23:05:03 GMT
Biggest fault against is we sacrificed our team structure. If JOD is not on (a baffling decision anyway) how can you justify replacing him with a rookie defender.You're not replacing like with like.Remember we took him off in 2015 final and he our top scorer from play,took off Geaney last year for another defender and we chasing the game.Think EF has a conservative and negative streak in big games which doesn't play to our strengths. I'd rather have lost yesterday with a back line holding its shape,forwards tacking on the front foot and tearing into game.Instead we got a half system and players lost in the running of it. Yup, very simple game it is, all we needed to do was tighten up at the back, have a general improvement of each individual player, start Jack & Darren and I believe we'd be facing Dublin now, |
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Aug 27, 2017 23:33:57 GMT
Three times I can recall Gough reffing us - v Cork in Tralee a couple of years ago, last year v Dublin and yesterday. On all three occasions, he's f*cked us over. I'm afraid I lost it a couple of times yesterday, twice with Aidan O'Shea, called him a fat 'pri**' - he was trying to influence ref and linesman. A proud moment 😕 On Darran's card though, internally I wanted to bound down the steps leap the gate and knock Gough out. That anger and those thoughts were not followed by action or published by mouth luckily. |
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Aug 27, 2017 23:40:06 GMT
Even with all the bad tactics and Gough poisoning, the bottom line is that the majority of our lads on the pitch played poorly or were made play poorly. I think we may have been given a better death than say if Sheehan sunk that free last week. We'd be getting the run around literally by Dublin. Our form has collapsed since Munster final.
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Post by An Bradán on Aug 27, 2017 23:40:25 GMT
Kevin McCarthy added a lot earlier on this year. He looks a natural successor to DW who has been a super player for Kerry. Obviously not 100% yesterday.Brian O'Beaglaoich has also been missed.
It was a really disjointed looking performance yesterday and unless JOD and Jack Savage were carrying knocks then they should have started.
Over the two days it looked like firstly Kerry underestimated Mayo and then completely overreacted to the problems of the first game. Anyone involved with any team knows you can't just change your entire set up in 6 days. Whatever about EF who has led us to many good days only to come up short against one of the greatest teams of all time I have to wonder about the input of his selectors. What are they bringing to this.Some decisions clearly backfired (set up / selection)while other decisions (substitutions) not taken cost Kerry dearly.
We're back to the drawing board I'm afraid. Dublin are like a great big bloody T-Rex capable of gobbling up any opposition but now we're also behind Mayo and maybe others too. Hoping I'm wrong but we could be waiting a while to meet our old mate Sam.
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Post by seaniebo on Aug 28, 2017 0:13:28 GMT
Been a fan of EF with what he has done with a number of players that are not in the calibre of what we had 10/12 years ago. I think the youth players will only start hitting the age now that they can be brought through (it was an eye opener to see how the U21s performed against Galway, time is needed). He obviously has faith in Jack Savage being the first sub the last day. Tom O Sullivan starting (I agree a lot to ask of the lad) id say McCarthy would have started if not injured and Barry started. I expect a lot more youth to come through in the league, including a goalie change, as he will know they have to be brought in (we said it last year but when you look at the U21s it may have been too soon but a few lads did come in) and hopefully Clifford can be the exception to go straight from minor to senior which hasnt happened in a long time. As somebody mentioned some lads been on the extended panel the last two years so hopefully their conditioning is progressing. However even the backs coming through none are of the physique needed when you look at some of the Mayo and Dublin players so more is needed than just youth and pace. We need to see if any club players at ages 24/25 are playing club football that can come in to add some needed physicality to balance the squad, really missed o mahony this year, not every good footballer played minor or U21, some guys can blossom a bit later,its rare but it happens. As i said i have been a fan of EF but i fear he is a cautious manager at the business end (2013 semi aside) and i am unsure whether he can bring the young players through as i would want or whether a more positive aggressive thinking manager is needed. Im open to him giving it a go again next year but he has to be willing to take more risks with the players coming through and going at the opposition in games playing to our natural skill strengths. I dont believe that mayo team are better than kerry and it must be said all the games stood to them unlike the lack of games we had this year and the sooner we have a better cork side back in munster the better it will be for us. The extra games next year will help. Top quality post |
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Post by Kingdomson on Aug 28, 2017 6:22:38 GMT
www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/familiar-failings-prove-kerry-will-need-major-overhaul-to-progress-36074666.html
Familiar failings prove Kerry will need major overhaul to progressPerformances win games and, as Fitzmaurice admitted, Kerry’s weren’t nearly good enough.. Martin Breheny August 28 2017 2:30 AM Eamonn Fitzmaurice simplified it down to the basics, which were stark and unavoidable. "Mayo were better, Mayo were hungrier, they performed better than us," he said. Really, there was little else that needed to be added after Kerry had suffered a third semi-final defeat in five seasons, but as the questions continued he worked patiently through the answers, including a commitment to reflect on the future. "I haven't thought about it -today was our only focus. We have to think what's the best way forward for Kerry. We'll do that over the next couple of weeks," he said. It will take place against the unusual background of Kerry having conceded the highest amount in successive championship games in their celebrated history. They survived a 2-14 giveaway yesterday week but there was no escape on Saturday when Mayo scored 2-16, countered by 0-17, of which only six points came in the first half. That's when Mayo put down the foundations, their good work from the 12th minute on largely uninterrupted by opposition who were malfunctioning across every line. They tried to sweep in their own half, but the handle kept coming off the brush. Long or short, high or low, Mayo beat them, not through a superior tactical system but because they were playing better individually. It's fashionable nowadays to concentrate on shapes and structures, plays and plans, elevating them to a level of importance that they don't deserve. Performances win games and, as Fitzmaurice (pictured) admitted, Kerry's weren't nearly good enough. The concession of a '45' by goalkeeper, Brian Kelly off a kick-out in the 18th minute will go down as an oddity in football annals but why did it happen? His close range targets were covered and he feared that if he went long, possession would be gobbled up by Mayo, as had happened so often up to that point. Effectively, the county that gave football such great midfielders as Mick O'Connell, Jack O'Shea and Darragh Ó Sé feared launching kick-outs past their '45'. Strange times indeed. Still, it really was a defining moment when Kelly booted the ball over his own endline, even if the embarrassment was reduced somewhat when Cillian O'Connor missed the target with the '45'. Fitzmaurice will, in all probability, continue as manager but Saturday could mark a significant day in other respects. Was it Kieran Donaghy's last outing in green-and-gold? He lingered on the pitch a long time after Kerry's defeat by Dublin in last year's semi-final, almost as if it were the end of his inter-county adventure. It wasn't. He made a big impact this summer, at least until Saturday when he was confined to the peripherals, prior to allowing his frustration boil over in a clash with Aidan O'Shea, which drew red. Donaghy walked slowly to the sideline, never glancing back at an arena he graced so often. At the age of 34, it may well have been his last time inside the white lines at inter-county level. But here's a thing. Donaghy wasn't even a first choice for the drawn semi-final with Mayo in 2014, yet three years later he had become essential. What happened to the supply lines? Overhaul As for the Kerry defence, a major overhaul is definitely required, as underlined by their concession rate in All-Ireland semi-finals.
They conceded a total of 4-30 against Mayo in two games this year, 0-22 against Dublin last year, 3-11 (excluding extra-time) and 1-16 against Mayo in 2014 and 3-18 against Dublin in 2013.
That suggests serious inadequacies, either in the personnel or the system, and since the latter can't function if the former isn't good enough, Fitzmaurice will surely look to fresh talent."There's great talent coming through. The challenge is getting that talent up to senior level. Even then ,that doesn't always equate to success," he said. Kerry leave the 2017 stage as Munster and Allianz League champions, but in a county of such high expectations that's not enough to keep supporters content. The manner of Saturday's defeat will frustrate everyone in Kerry, most of all the players and management. As ever though, it's all about the future. "You go back to the drawing board. You try to get it right. It was what it was," said Fitzmaurice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let's hope the talent is really there and comes through - fast!
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Post by buck02 on Aug 28, 2017 8:10:34 GMT
Just showed Darren's incident on TSG there. Absolutely disgraceful decision That linesman is another one of those officials who wants to look at himself on the big screen to make sure his hair isnt out of place. He was the guy who reffed the Mayo-Roscommon replay and high-fived the players who came to shake his hand before the game. |
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Post by onlykerry on Aug 28, 2017 8:17:31 GMT
We have to be a little wary of the minor success. Are these winning teams: a) good teams or b) good players. For the seniors, the first choice isn't much good; we need b). We don't want to be like Laois: more like Kerry 1998-2004. Valid question but one additional factor would encourage me to think there are some good players coming through - in combination with the minor success the corresponding winning Hogan Cup sides have also hailed from Kerry and Hogan Cup wins frequently produce individual stars. The transition is the key element and this is a precarious process with time and patience key factors. We have tried to stay competitive (we want/expect to win every year) and keep the experienced guys at the coal face rather than risk a younger guy when faced with big decisions. Is this due to the pressure from the fans or the conservative manager - possibly both. Rochford was pilloried for putting AOS at full back in the drawn game and everybody said it would not be repeated - he repeated it and was vindicated. We all agree he has made crazy calls - that is what a risk taker does. He would not have survived the goalkeeper call if he was Kerry manager I suspect. |
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Post by buck02 on Aug 28, 2017 8:35:43 GMT
Gooch hits the nail on the head in his Examiner article today. The Shane Enright/James Donoghue question, the players on the panel for 5 years and still not leaders and what he said about Crokes facing certain players over the next while. All uncomfortable questions for his former team mates and manager.
COLM COOPER: A Kerry nightmare in Croke Park, too many players looked stale
I’ll ask the question: How much have Kerry actually progressed in 12 months? Have they found senior-ready players? No.
I took myself off down home Saturday night. I had intended to take in both the weekend’s semi-finals in Dublin, but then again I had never experienced the demoralising low that supporters can suffer at this stage of the championship.
Until now.
Nothing I heard from Kerry’s frustrated faithful in the aftermath of Saturday’s comprehensive dismantling by Mayo could be interpreted as harsh or unfair.
Everyone inside and outside the county was operating on the basis that Kerry would be so much better second time around. That assumption, as we would learn so painfully, was seriously misjudged.
Stephen Rochford and his management team have gotten plenty of flak when things haven’t gone according to plan, but his players and the gameplan came up trumps on Saturday. Mayo were playing up to the rim in nearly every position on the field.
They out-thought Kerry in set-up, match-ups, and they won 90% of the battles over the two games. You could not have an argument from a Kerry point of view because they were so comprehensively beaten.
How many Kerry players could honestly say they won their individual battles over the two days? I mentioned last week that four Kerry players did well in the drawn game — Paul Geaney, Paul Murphy, Kieran Donaghy and Peter Crowley. I was hanging my assumptions for the replay on the basis that Kerry would at least double that second time around. But even less than four did well.
You look for 10 players to deliver 8/10 performances in these big games — how many Kerry players even delivered 7/10 on Saturday?
Geaney looked dangerous, Paul Murphy did reasonably well over the two games. So much seems to have changed since the end of the league, it demands that we ask did Kerry — and a lot more besides — read too much into winning the competition and beating Dublin.
I think so.
The progress of Mayo — and their steady improvement from defeat in Salthill to a winning semi-final replay — puts into stark perspective just how flat Kerry have looked these past two weekends. Killian Young, Johnny Buckley and Jonathan Lyne, to name but three, have very little football played.
The problems with the half forward line have persisted all season. Kerry were supposed to be the ones fresh and eager, but they looked stale and leggy on Saturday.
David Moran had one of his poorer games but he’s an easy target too because he is seen as a principal ball-winner. Watching the re-run yesterday morning, it was stunning how comprehensively beaten Kerry were everywhere on the pitch.
If you were in the corporate sector, you would be calling a board meeting and demanding a full-scale review and performance analysis.
I know how badly Éamonn Fitzmaurice will take this defeat. He’s feeling very low in the cage now, and his over-riding feeling yesterday must have been ‘where do we go from here?’ People on the outside will say ‘ye lost a semi-final playing badly by five points, and ye’ve all those minors coming through’. But that’s not how it works down here. Éamonn is around long enough to know that such is the gig as Kerry manager.
He might have explained away the James O’Donoghue decision had the new system worked, and frustrated Mayo. My take on it is this: you always play your best players, even if you have to fit them in somewhere they are not entirely comfortable.
For Kerry to win on a dry day in Croke Park, they had to score big, they had to have O’Donoghue and Geaney firing, so James had to be on the field — from the start. I accept he didn’t have his best game the week before, or even against Galway, but you have to find room for such a dangerous scoring weapon in the expectation that when he is firing, he will deliver.
Dropping him was alarming. If he was dropped on form why was Shane Enright on the field until after Andy Moran scored Mayo’s second goal shortly after half-time?
Mayo were running the table, which is alarming because in gaelic football, it is always the defence that dictates the match-ups. At the other end of the picture, Kerry weren’t even convincing in their attempt to disrupt David Clarke’s short kickouts — something Kerry had put pressure on the week before.
It was all so unconvincing and unsure by Kerry. We are told that Kerry always play streetwise football. They looked anything but that on Saturday, right from the ’keeper, Brian Kelly, out.
I’ll ask the question: how much have Kerry actually progressed in 12 months? Have they really found senior-ready players? No. We were talking about strength in depth after the league with the likes of Ronan Shanahan, Gavin Crowley, Briain Ó Beaglaoich. Seán O’Shea was coming on strong.
And yet none were involved last Saturday, I was looking at the replay programme Saturday night: if Crokes were playing those lads in the county championship in a couple of week, who are you really afraid of? Who will really take you out?
What I am most worried about from a Kerry point of view is the rate of progress by those in the squad now for five or six seasons. They are there or thereabouts but are they really improving? Who are developing as leaders? Where were they on Saturday when Mayo got their second goal. Instead of killing Mayo’s momentum and reeling them in point by point, Kerry went chasing goals.
It was Mayo who looked streetwise when the momentum started ebbing from them — they slowed it, they had ‘injuries’, how many frees did they concede in the second half, happy to take the sanction and slow Kerry down? That’s smart. I questioned how they could keep going to the well, I questioned their ability to go week-on-week, but they have torn up all the scripts written for them, and penned their own.
Now there is one more day. In the past, they have taken the scalp but not followed it. History has taught everyone to hold judgment on Mayo until September but they are going into the final with nothing to fear.
The confidence that beating Kerry will give them, the feel-good factor they will have for the next few weeks is something you can’t inject artificially into a set-up. It’s just there. I thought Mayo at 2/1 on Saturday was a fantastic price. But if someone had told me that so few Kerry players would produce when given a second chance, I wouldn’t have thought that was possible. Never in my worst nightmares.
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