The Rules as Applied

[onlykerry]

Like most on here I go to games regularly and think I know the rules - however I regularly come away from games shaking my head (after going hoarse) at the application of the rules and questioning how well I do know the rules (laying aside my heat of the moment tinted view of the game).

Perhaps others on here can shed some light on aspects of the rules.

1/ The advantage.
When a player is fouled and the ref lets play go on, the player is fouled again say 10 mt further up the pitch. The ref then blows and awards the free from where the initial foul took place. Is this the correct application of the rules?

[inforthebreaks]

Jun 29, 2017 9:59:24 GMT onlykerry said:

Like most on here I go to games regularly and think I know the rules - however I regularly come away from games shaking my head (after going hoarse) at the application of the rules and questioning how well I do know the rules (laying aside my heat of the moment tinted view of the game).

Perhaps others on here can shed some light on aspects of the rules.

1/ The advantage.
When a player is fouled and the ref lets play go on, the player is fouled again say 10 mt further up the pitch. The ref then blows and awards the free from where the initial foul took place. Is this the correct application of the rules?

that's a question I have often asked too. surely the second foul is in a more advantageous position therefore the free should be taken from there but invariably the original foul is where it is taken from

[buck02]

Jun 29, 2017 9:59:24 GMT onlykerry said:

Like most on here I go to games regularly and think I know the rules - however I regularly come away from games shaking my head (after going hoarse) at the application of the rules and questioning how well I do know the rules (laying aside my heat of the moment tinted view of the game).

Perhaps others on here can shed some light on aspects of the rules.

1/ The advantage.
When a player is fouled and the ref lets play go on, the player is fouled again say 10 mt further up the pitch. The ref then blows and awards the free from where the initial foul took place. Is this the correct application of the rules?

This is the wording of the rule:

When a foul is committed the referee may allow the play to continue if he considers it to be to the advantage of the offended team. He shall signal that advantage by raising an arm upright. If he deems no advantage to have occurred, he may subsequently award a free for that foul from where it occurred*. The referee shall allow the advantage to run by maintaining his arm in the upright position for up to five seconds after the initial foul or for less time if it becomes clear that no advantage has accrued. He shall apply any relevant disciplinary action

The answer to your question all open to interpretation unfortunately. Of course any right minded person would say the advantage played means the foul should be awarded for the site of the 2nd foul. But all refs are not right minded people are they!

I recall watching a minor game last year where a forward was being fouled, advantage was being played, his attempt at a point dropped short and once of his teammates got the ball and was fouled in the square for a penalty. The ref brought back the free from the area where the original foul took place.

So advantage meant a free 30 yards out instead of a penalty. The free was missed to confound matters

[mandad]

Rule 5.39.
When a foul is committed, the referee may allow the play to continue if he considers it to be to the advantage of the offended team. He shall signal that advantage by raising an arm upright and shall allow the advantage to run by maintaining his arm in the upright position for up to five seconds after the foul or for less time if it becomes clear that no advantage has accrued. If he deems no advantage to having accrued, he may subsequently award a free for the foul from where it occurred, except as provided under Exceptions (v) and (vi) of Rule 2.2. He shall apply any relevant disciplinary action.

The important word of this rule is “advantage”.
Clearly, an advantage has accrued if play has moved on to a more advantageous location i.e. closer to opponents goal posts. In that situation, the location of the second foul would be where the free would be taken from.
On the other hand - if the location of the second foul was not an advantageous location i.e. further from opponents goal post, then the referee could award the free from where the initial foul occurred.

That is just my interpretation of the rule.

[greengold35]

I think all referees bring the free back to where the original foul occurred - seems to me to be an instruction in this regard.

[buck02]

Jun 29, 2017 11:27:19 GMT greengold35 said:

I think all referees bring the free back to where the original foul occurred - seems to me to be an instruction in this regard.

The disadvantage rule?

[givehimaball]

Jun 29, 2017 11:27:19 GMT greengold35 said:

I think all referees bring the free back to where the original foul occurred - seems to me to be an instruction in this regard.

I'm nearly certain that I've read that this was the instruction [bring the ball back to where the free first occurred] issued to referees. Not sure if it was in a paper column or something from the GAA itself, but it matches what the refs are doing. I think it was back around the time the advantage rule was introduced.

I think it's the wrong approach by the authorities because if you are a defender and the ref has signalled advantage, and the opposing player is through on goal, you are pretty much safe to foul the player to stop them having a shot at goal. This goes against the spirit of the rule for me.

From my reading of the rule and seeing how refs have interpreted, I would said the wisest course of action for a player who is in possession and the ref has signalled advantage is to try to get a shot off as quickly as possible. If at all possible shoot for goal, if not then swing the leg at it. I've definitely seen some teams who seem to adopt this policy - I want to say Galway whereas a lot of teams just continue to play on as normal taking no account into the fact that they have advantage. Defenders don't seem to have uniformly copped that the smartest action is rather than letting them getting a shot away, simply foul them straight away so they are left with only a free as opposed to a free shot plus a free.

[kerrygold]

The advantage rule is a great addition. It would be great if they came up with an advantage rule that took soft frees for minimal contact out of the game in scoring positions.

[onlykerry]

Another rule that seems to have multiple interpretations is the short kick out. Mayo were penalised for a short kick out yesterday - the recipient was outside the 21 but ball deemed not to have travelled the required distance. Today in Killarney this did not bother the ref.

[onlykerry]

No takers for my query on the short kick out.

How about the use of the "hand off" in GAA.

Some players use the rugby style hand off to fend away an apponent and its another category of foul that referees seem to have difficulty with. Aidan O Shea is a major user of this tactic for example.

[givehimaball]

www.gaa.ie/mm/Document/TheGAA/RulesandRegulations/13/79/82/GAAOfficialGuide2017_Part2_Neutral.pdf

Jul 2, 2017 16:12:45 GMT onlykerry said:

Another rule that seems to have multiple interpretations is the short kick out. Mayo were penalised for a short kick out yesterday - the recipient was outside the 21 but ball deemed not to have travelled the required distance. Today in Killarney this did not bother the ref.

When the ball is played over the endline by the Team attacking that end, or after a score is made, play is restarted by a kick-out off the ground from the 13m line and within the large rectangle.

If the goalkeeper is not taking the kick-out, he shall stay in the small rectangle, and all other players, except the player taking the kick-out, shall be outside the 20m line and 13m from the ball, until it has been kicked.

The player taking a kick-out may kick the ball more than once before any other player touches it but may not take the ball into his hands.

The ball shall travel 13m before being played by another player of the defending team

Unsurprising refs get it wrong sometimes.

There was also an instance of a Cork player late on being inside the 13m [he was over towards the corner] as he had gone down with cramp or some other injury when O'Halloran was taking his kick-out. He was up and on moving but still well inside the 13m line at the moment O'Halloran kicked the ball. Should have been a throw-ball (or at the very least O'Halloran be made wait/take it) but watching it back the ref did not have a good day on Sunday (making a fair few mistakes on both sides).

[mandad]

Your original question on 29th. drew a couple of diverse opinions, including my own view. The Referees Handbook is issued as a guide for Referees. It advises as follows:

“Signal - Advantage is signaled by the referee raising an arm upright and maintaining in an upright position for the period of the advantage.

Recall - If no advantage accrues then the referee shall award a free for the foul from where it occurred. For the avoidance of doubt, a free kick/puck shall be awarded even if the fouled player/team has a shot at goal which is saved or goes wide.

Foul Subsequent to Advantage Award - If, during the advantage period, a foul is committed by a player of the team which was originally fouled then the advantage is canceled and a free kick/puck awarded for the “second” foul.

If during the advantage period, another foul is committed against the team which received the original advantage, then a free kick/puck will be awarded for the “second” foul if it is considered more advantageous than the original.”


With regard to your latest question - If the goalkeeper is not taking the kick-out, he shall stay in the small rectangle, and all other players, except the player taking the kick-out, shall be outside the 20m line and 13m from the ball until it has been kicked. As you imply, there is a frustrating lack of consistency.

I just hope our keeper doesn’t resort to dribbling the ball out the field from the’ kick out’ as the rule allows. The player taking a kick-out may kick the ball more than once before any other player touches it but may not take the ball into his hands. That would be the final straw for me!

[buck02]

Crazy interpretation of the advantage rule by the ref in the Tipp Armagh game today.

Armagh goal disallowed in first half and 14 yard free awarded. Then an advantage played for Tipp when they should have been given a free 50 yards out, Armagh turn them over and goal at the other end.

[ciarrailar]

Jun 29, 2017 10:54:52 GMT buck02 said:

Jun 29, 2017 9:59:24 GMT onlykerry said:

Like most on here I go to games regularly and think I know the rules - however I regularly come away from games shaking my head (after going hoarse) at the application of the rules and questioning how well I do know the rules (laying aside my heat of the moment tinted view of the game).

Perhaps others on here can shed some light on aspects of the rules.

1/ The advantage.
When a player is fouled and the ref lets play go on, the player is fouled again say 10 mt further up the pitch. The ref then blows and awards the free from where the initial foul took place. Is this the correct application of the rules?

This is the wording of the rule:

When a foul is committed the referee may allow the play to continue if he considers it to be to the advantage of the offended team. He shall signal that advantage by raising an arm upright. If he deems no advantage to have occurred, he may subsequently award a free for that foul from where it occurred*. The referee shall allow the advantage to run by maintaining his arm in the upright position for up to five seconds after the initial foul or for less time if it becomes clear that no advantage has accrued. He shall apply any relevant disciplinary action

The answer to your question all open to interpretation unfortunately. Of course any right minded person would say the advantage played means the foul should be awarded for the site of the 2nd foul. But all refs are not right minded people are they!

I recall watching a minor game last year where a forward was being fouled, advantage was being played, his attempt at a point dropped short and once of his teammates got the ball and was fouled in the square for a penalty. The ref brought back the free from the area where the original foul took place.

So advantage meant a free 30 yards out instead of a penalty. The free was missed to confound matters

I think we're getting a little blinded here. The intention of the advantage is to allow play to continue and not have the game too 'stop-start'. Prior to the introduction of the advantage rule the scenario above would have led to a free kick for the initial foul anyway. The advantage rule allows play develop a little further and normally benefits the attacking team in this respect. But, with limited time (5 seconds) if a subsequent foul arises then the free should be awarded from the new site.
its not perfect but I've seen the advantage rule used really well on a number of occasions, unfortunately some referees still are too fast to blow the whistle and give frees when advantage would have been better.

[onlykerry]

Talking with a ref recently he highlighted one rule that was surprising - a player can play the ball on the ground with his hand if he drops it and no other player touches the ball before he uses his hand to play it away (ie to a colleague). Most ref's and all observers (me included) would be calling a foul for touching the ball on the ground. The key to this I was told is no other player may have contact with the ball.

[Annascaultilidie]

Colm Parkison was talking about the Alan Brogan bounce - the big exaggerated bounce where in the act of bouncing the ball you take four or more steps.

[buck02]

Jul 18, 2017 15:49:57 GMT Annascaultilidie said:

Colm Parkison was talking about the Alan Brogan bounce - the big exaggerated bounce where in the act of bouncing the ball you take four or more steps.

Ciaran Kilkenny often takes 12 steps using one bounce. He gets away with it so I say fair play to him.

It will probably take the Sunday Game highlighting it before its on a presentation at the next Refs Conference though.

[inforthebreaks]

came across an interesting one recently enough. there was a penalty in a game, the corner back went into goal to face it. in the act of diving for the ball and saving the shot, in the small square, he touched it on the ground. Ordinarily a goalie can do this. I spoke to the ref after and he admitted he hadn't thought of it. when he went and checked it out he agreed it should have been another penalty as he hadn't put on a goalies jersey, therefore he was still an outfield player

[Mickmack]

Jul 18, 2017 15:49:57 GMT Annascaultilidie said:

Colm Parkison was talking about the Alan Brogan bounce - the big exaggerated bounce where in the act of bouncing the ball you take four or more steps.

Paidi used to hold the ball high over his head for a second or two when in full flight and then hop it off the ground and make after it and fetch it again . I would say the process covered 10 yards

[diego]

Jul 18, 2017 15:59:03 GMT buck02 said:

Jul 18, 2017 15:49:57 GMT Annascaultilidie said:

Colm Parkison was talking about the Alan Brogan bounce - the big exaggerated bounce where in the act of bouncing the ball you take four or more steps.

Ciaran Kilkenny often takes 12 steps using one bounce. He gets away with it so I say fair play to him.

It will probably take the Sunday Game highlighting it before its on a presentation at the next Refs Conference though.

Kilkenny takes about 6 steps during the backswing on his hand passes as well.

[playitfair]

Jul 18, 2017 10:36:33 GMT onlykerry said:

Talking with a ref recently he highlighted one rule that was surprising - a player can play the ball on the ground with his hand if he drops it and no other player touches the ball before he uses his hand to play it away (ie to a colleague). Most ref's and all observers (me included) would be calling a foul for touching the ball on the ground. The key to this I was told is no other player may have contact with the ball.

that rule has been there for years. Remember it being allowed in the early 90s. I think a Kerry player may have been pulled up for this in the league final. The purpose of the rule is to safeguard the player lying beside the ball.

[ciarrailar]

Jul 18, 2017 10:36:33 GMT onlykerry said:

Talking with a ref recently he highlighted one rule that was surprising - a player can play the ball on the ground with his hand if he drops it and no other player touches the ball before he uses his hand to play it away (ie to a colleague). Most ref's and all observers (me included) would be calling a foul for touching the ball on the ground. The key to this I was told is no other player may have contact with the ball.

The rule book makes no mention of anyone else touching it or not. If a player falls or is knocked to the ground while in possession of the ball and the ball falls loose he may use his hand to strike the ball on the ground and may score by doing so. Whether someone else touches it or not is irrelevant I'd say.

[ciarrailar]

Jul 18, 2017 15:59:03 GMT buck02 said:

Jul 18, 2017 15:49:57 GMT Annascaultilidie said:

Colm Parkison was talking about the Alan Brogan bounce - the big exaggerated bounce where in the act of bouncing the ball you take four or more steps.

Ciaran Kilkenny often takes 12 steps using one bounce. He gets away with it so I say fair play to him.

It will probably take the Sunday Game highlighting it before its on a presentation at the next Refs Conference though.

This is something that drives me cracked. The amount of overcarrying in the game is a joke and no ref seems to pull players on it. There was one Dublin player ( can't remember who) in the Leinster final really took the piss and got away with it. It's not just Dublin though, it's everywhere. Refs turn a blind eye..

[buck02]

Jul 18, 2017 21:39:33 GMT ciarrailar said:

Jul 18, 2017 15:59:03 GMT buck02 said:

Ciaran Kilkenny often takes 12 steps using one bounce. He gets away with it so I say fair play to him.

It will probably take the Sunday Game highlighting it before its on a presentation at the next Refs Conference though.

This is something that drives me cracked. The amount of overcarrying in the game is a joke and no ref seems to pull players on it. There was one Dublin player ( can't remember who) in the Leinster final really took the piss and got away with it. It's not just Dublin though, it's everywhere. Refs turn a blind eye..

Donnchadh Walsh got called for over carrying early in the Munster Final when there was no way he did. The Cork player who shot into the side netting in the 2nd half must have taken at least 8 steps but wasn't pulled up for it.

[ciarrailar]

Jul 19, 2017 6:19:49 GMT buck02 said:

Jul 18, 2017 21:39:33 GMT ciarrailar said:

This is something that drives me cracked. The amount of overcarrying in the game is a joke and no ref seems to pull players on it. There was one Dublin player ( can't remember who) in the Leinster final really took the piss and got away with it. It's not just Dublin though, it's everywhere. Refs turn a blind eye..

Donnchadh Walsh got called for over carrying early in the Munster Final when there was no way he did. The Cork player who shot into the side netting in the 2nd half must have taken at least 8 steps but wasn't pulled up for it.

Agree 100%.... Think Donnchadh was about on the limit in fairness but not something that would normally be pulled. Deffo the second instance you mention was serious overcarrying....

[skybluezone]

Jul 19, 2017 14:04:43 GMT ciarrailar said:

Jul 19, 2017 6:19:49 GMT buck02 said:

Donnchadh Walsh got called for over carrying early in the Munster Final when there was no way he did. The Cork player who shot into the side netting in the 2nd half must have taken at least 8 steps but wasn't pulled up for it.

Agree 100%.... Think Donnchadh was about on the limit in fairness but not something that would normally be pulled. Deffo the second instance you mention was serious overcarrying....

You can add in at least 2 Kildare points were in the 8 or 9 steps ballpark before the ball was kicked over the bar.
James McCarthy goal was 6 I reckon, we'll say thats borderline, but could understand it being chalked off, although not when Kildare were taking 8 or 9 for points!

But the rule is being abused wholesale.
Stephen O'Brien takes a liberty in every game.

But not sure there is anything in the rulebook to counter the Alan Brogan exaggerated bounce.
If you bounce out well in front of you the reality is 1) you don't actually have the ball and 2) There is ample opportunity for a defender to get a hand in.

[ciarrailar]

Jul 19, 2017 16:43:51 GMT skybluezone said:

Jul 19, 2017 14:04:43 GMT ciarrailar said:

Agree 100%.... Think Donnchadh was about on the limit in fairness but not something that would normally be pulled. Deffo the second instance you mention was serious overcarrying....

You can add in at least 2 Kildare points were in the 8 or 9 steps ballpark before the ball was kicked over the bar.
James McCarthy goal was 6 I reckon, we'll say thats borderline, but could understand it being chalked off, although not when Kildare were taking 8 or 9 for points!

But the rule is being abused wholesale.
Stephen O'Brien takes a liberty in every game.

But not sure there is anything in the rulebook to counter the Alan Brogan exaggerated bounce.
If you bounce out well in front of you the reality is 1) you don't actually have the ball and 2) There is ample opportunity for a defender to get a hand in.

When you're soloing or hopping the ball you are considered in possession. I agree about Stephen O'Brien, he's always on the limit... Ah I imagine it's hard to police but by God some refs make no effort to enforce this rule. Surely the rule book cannot be like an á la carte menu..... You can't pick and choose which rules to enforce and which not to....

[onlykerry]

Is it time for the GAA to appoint umpires for Championship games and not simply get the ref to bring along a few pals to don the white coats?

Sunday saw a lot of off the ball (probably most games do) action right under the eyes of the umpires - ever before the ball was thrown in JOD was being belted in plain view of the umpire who did not bring it to the attention of the referee. Any behaviour that is tolerated is continued and magnifies until it finally becomes a problem.

[lár na páirce]

Aug 1, 2017 11:44:21 GMT onlykerry said:

Is it time for the GAA to appoint umpires for Championship games and not simply get the ref to bring along a few pals to don the white coats?

Sunday saw a lot of off the ball (probably most games do) action right under the eyes of the umpires - ever before the ball was thrown in JOD was being belted in plain view of the umpire who did not bring it to the attention of the referee. Any behaviour that is tolerated is continued and magnifies until it finally becomes a problem.

Luckily the umpire also missed James lamping Declan Kyne in the crown jewels a few mins later.

[greengold35]

Aug 1, 2017 11:44:21 GMT onlykerry said:

Is it time for the GAA to appoint umpires for Championship games and not simply get the ref to bring along a few pals to don the white coats?

Sunday saw a lot of off the ball (probably most games do) action right under the eyes of the umpires - ever before the ball was thrown in JOD was being belted in plain view of the umpire who did not bring it to the attention of the referee. Any behaviour that is tolerated is continued and magnifies until it finally becomes a problem.

I would agree with this - the umpires in Kildare /Armagh @ Canal End called on Hawkeye 3 times to adjudicate on scores !! They should never again be allowed on a pitch!