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Post by Mickmack on Oct 6, 2016 21:32:37 GMT
I'm absolutely gobsmacked that anyone could categorically consider the Lee Keegan incident with Connolly to be a certain black card. That is that Keegan intentionally pulled Connolly to the ground and that Connolly did not drive or exaggerate the falling movement in anyway to con the ref. It is one of the more grey area black cards that we have seen. Without getting into either players head it's not at all gobsmacking at all to see how the ref deemed it to be black the same way Hennelly got his. A forward rushing through on goal leading to a pull down - more instinctive than malicious but deliberate nonetheless and meriting a black - that's the rule. An exaggeration by Connolly? Perhaps but not as blatant as many others. What would be really gobsmacking would be to think that the ref was waiting for his chance to card Keegan because of what the Dublin pundits were saying. As Jim McGuinness said one time...you know a cynical foul when you see it. That Keegan incident was like the one that got the Tipp lad black carded v Mayo and i didnt agree with that either.
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peanuts
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Post by peanuts on Oct 6, 2016 22:07:58 GMT
I'm absolutely gobsmacked that anyone could categorically consider the Lee Keegan incident with Connolly to be a certain black card. That is that Keegan intentionally pulled Connolly to the ground and that Connolly did not drive or exaggerate the falling movement in anyway to con the ref. It is one of the more grey area black cards that we have seen. Without getting into either players head it's not at all gobsmacking at all to see how the ref deemed it to be black the same way Hennelly got his. A forward rushing through on goal leading to a pull down - more instinctive than malicious but deliberate nonetheless and meriting a black - that's the rule. An exaggeration by Connolly? Perhaps but not as blatant as many others. What would be really gobsmacking would be to think that the ref was waiting for his chance to card Keegan because of what the Dublin pundits were saying. I must say I'm with Kerrygold on this one. There is no pull down by Keegan. It's was cynical yes but not a black card offense under the rules.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 6, 2016 22:25:01 GMT
Move of a dive/fall than drag down
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Oct 6, 2016 23:06:51 GMT
As a footballer Connolly is a brilliant player, strong, fast, good fielder, good kick passer, great shooting off both feet.
As far as character is concerned based on the only evidence I have which is considerable from watching him play for 7-8 years now, I don't have anything complimentary to say.
When you watch and listen to a class act like Bernard Brogan who conducts himself magnificently on and off the pitch, and gets plenty of attention from defenders, I don't think I need make the point further.
I got so annyoed from watching 6 minutes at the end of the first half, I couldn't watch any more as my young lad was around and I would have just been behaving like a ranting gobdaw.
A point I would like to make when reflecting on the Hennelly mistakes and Keegan black card, as key reasons why Mayo fell short. Decent arguments definitely. However What/Who's to say that Dublin would not have adapted to neither of them occurring and still won. I think chances better than reasonable.
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Post by kerrygold on Oct 7, 2016 8:13:13 GMT
I'm absolutely gobsmacked that anyone could categorically consider the Lee Keegan incident with Connolly to be a certain black card. That is that Keegan intentionally pulled Connolly to the ground and that Connolly did not drive or exaggerate the falling movement in anyway to con the ref. It is one of the more grey area black cards that we have seen. Without getting into either players head it's not at all gobsmacking at all to see how the ref deemed it to be black the same way Hennelly got his. A forward rushing through on goal leading to a pull down - more instinctive than malicious but deliberate nonetheless and meriting a black - that's the rule. An exaggeration by Connolly? Perhaps but not as blatant as many others. What would be really gobsmacking would be to think that the ref was waiting for his chance to card Keegan because of what the Dublin pundits were saying. Wheres the pull down? It is no more that one of those frustrating minimal contact frees that seems to be a Croke Park policy at the moment when a defenders comes into contact with a forward. I'd be gobsmacked if the 40 strong Dublin backroom team hadn't analysed the Connolly Keegan duel to death and learned how to react to Keegan's close attention in the replay. The forward moving fall of Connolly and the reaction of the four closet Dubs tells it's own story. I'm not at all gobsmacked that Deegan didn't read the situation differently with the heightened media attention surrounding the duel.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 7, 2016 8:41:23 GMT
As a footballer Connolly is a brilliant player, strong, fast, good fielder, good kick passer, great shooting off both feet. As far as character is concerned based on the only evidence I have which is considerable from watching him play for 7-8 years now, I don't have anything complimentary to say. When you watch and listen to a class act like Bernard Brogan who conducts himself magnificently on and off the pitch, and gets plenty of attention from defenders, I don't think I need make the point further. I got so annyoed from watching 6 minutes at the end of the first half, I couldn't watch any more as my young lad was around and I would have just been behaving like a ranting gobdaw. A point I would like to make when reflecting on the Hennelly mistakes and Keegan black card, as key reasons why Mayo fell short. Decent arguments definitely. However What/Who's to say that Dublin would not have adapted to neither of them occurring and still won. I think chances better than reasonable. Dublin to their great credit always seem to find a way but of the 1.15 they got, about 1.05 were gifted by Hennelly. They also lost two sub options as Hennelly and Keegan had to be replaced. It was MDMA and Costello that got Dublin over the line..both sub options. Clarke is a commanding presence, a great shot stopper, comfortable in going short with his kickouts. The nearest player there is to Cluxton. I would love if Kerry had him. In 50 years watching all sports I cant ever recall a team committing hari kari in such fashion. As John Maughan said, Mayo just found a different way to lose. Its just beyond comprehension.
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Oct 7, 2016 11:59:49 GMT
As a footballer Connolly is a brilliant player, strong, fast, good fielder, good kick passer, great shooting off both feet. As far as character is concerned based on the only evidence I have which is considerable from watching him play for 7-8 years now, I don't have anything complimentary to say. When you watch and listen to a class act like Bernard Brogan who conducts himself magnificently on and off the pitch, and gets plenty of attention from defenders, I don't think I need make the point further. I got so annyoed from watching 6 minutes at the end of the first half, I couldn't watch any more as my young lad was around and I would have just been behaving like a ranting gobdaw. A point I would like to make when reflecting on the Hennelly mistakes and Keegan black card, as key reasons why Mayo fell short. Decent arguments definitely. However What/Who's to say that Dublin would not have adapted to neither of them occurring and still won. I think chances better than reasonable. Dublin to their great credit always seem to find a way but of the 1.15 they got, about 1.05 were gifted by Hennelly. They also lost two sub options as Hennelly and Keegan had to be replaced. It was MDMA and Costello that got Dublin over the line..both sub options. Clarke is a commanding presence, a great shot stopper, comfortable in going short with his kickouts. The nearest player there is to Cluxton. I would love if Kerry had him. In 50 years watching all sports I cant ever recall a team committing hari kari in such fashion. As John Maughan said, Mayo just found a different way to lose. Indeed. So much so, that I cannot with confidence now, state that I do NOT believe in curses. The two goals the first day, especially the second, I've never seen anything like it. Its just beyond comprehension.
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Oct 7, 2016 12:01:52 GMT
Dublin to their great credit always seem to find a way but of the 1.15 they got, about 1.05 were gifted by Hennelly. They also lost two sub options as Hennelly and Keegan had to be replaced. It was MDMA and Costello that got Dublin over the line..both sub options. Clarke is a commanding presence, a great shot stopper, comfortable in going short with his kickouts. The nearest player there is to Cluxton. I would love if Kerry had him. In 50 years watching all sports I cant ever recall a team committing hari kari in such fashion. As John Maughan said, Mayo just found a different way to lose. Indeed. So much so, that I cannot with confidence now, state that I do NOT believe in curses. The two goals the first day, especially the second, I've never seen anything like it. Its just beyond comprehension. Christ I put the quote inside your comment - jees, must be Robbie Hennelly looking over my shoulder.Anyway. Indeed. So much so, that I cannot with confidence now, state that I do NOT believe in curses. The two goals the first day, especially the second, I've never seen anything like it. "never seen anything like it" - "beyond comprehension" - we don't throw these workds around lightly.
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Post by Dermot on Oct 7, 2016 12:35:10 GMT
Yeah, between the curse and the shooting themselves in the foot ... I think my nephew has a point .. Mayo are just too "used to / comfortable" losing All Ireland's at this stage.. Im not saying they didnt try, they certainly gave it all they had .. but both days they managed to come up with a way to draw or lose ... just like all their biggest games in last few years ...
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Post by thebluepanther on Oct 7, 2016 22:08:12 GMT
Yeah, between the curse and the shooting themselves in the foot ... I think my nephew has a point .. Mayo are just too "used to / comfortable" losing All Ireland's at this stage.. Im not saying they didnt try, they certainly gave it all they had .. but both days they managed to come up with a way to draw or lose ... just like all their biggest games in last few years ... Mayo gave everything, I think this is the best Mayo team in the last 20 years at least. Rochford and mc Entee have instilled a steeliness and ability to hit hard in the tackle. next year they will be hard yo beat. For Kerry next year this could be a huge game ,if it comes to pass. Only unknown is how much they went to the well this year and can they repeat it or better it next year. It cannot be underestimated how much Dublin expended in this final so that Mayo didn't get over the line. It was a dogfight and a game I'm extremely proud of the Dublin lads who just got on with what they were asked to do, players who were dropped came on and gave everything. It was a team who had 3 Sams and 4 leagues who could so easily of faltered coming into the last 10 to 15 mins and no one would of thought any less of them, , but they were the ones at tnis point who were patient and created the best opportunities So deserve great credit, it wasn't just a case of Mayo losing this. They came up against a top side who wouldn't bend the knee.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Oct 7, 2016 23:39:12 GMT
Well said Bluepinkpeterpanter, I didn't believe in curses either 'til the two goals, and very nearly a third. Replay was just am err new management will make, pressed the panic button, Darragh said that Mayo will one day beat Kerry and Dublin just like Kerry have beaten Tyrone, bogey opposition. But did we beat the red hand when it really mattered?, and we are merely talking recent years. Will Mayo win when it matters, and lift Sam?
Now, how all about these Sat league fixtures? Am I missing something?
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Post by thebluepanther on Oct 8, 2016 0:11:07 GMT
Well said Bluepinkpeterpanter, I didn't believe in curses either 'til the two goals, and very nearly a third. Replay was just am err new management will make, pressed the panic button, Darragh said that Mayo will one day beat Kerry and Dublin just like Kerry have beaten Tyrone, bogey opposition. But did we beat the red hand when it really mattered?, and we are merely talking recent years. Will Mayo win when it matters, and lift Sam? Now, how all about these Sat league fixtures? Am I missing something? Wit is not one of your strong points Burnyourbackside , but I'll humour you. No truth is Kerry didn't beat Tyrone when it mattered, Dublin have beaten Kerry 4 times and Mayo 3 times when it mattered this centuary. But Kerry at the moment have fantastic minor teams if 3or 4 make the transition in the next couple of years It's not ridiculous to suggest they could win the next 2 or 3All Ireland's. Mayo are a serious outfit and if they win one could go on a roll. Most genuine Dub supporters like myself who travel the country for all league games (championship doesn't offer us this luxury) will stress , that at this moment it's a privilege to watch our team and to enjoy it ,because it can change in a moment. We also have not forgotten the heartbreak of the early nineties and embarrassing moments of the Pillar era . So it's refreshing to watch these Dub boys represent what most true Blues are like.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Oct 8, 2016 0:41:11 GMT
Me not witty, ah man you're havin me on!!
Ply try again to humor me, you're far too sensible!
Ah 'tis Dubs era alright, yez will be there again next year, in the shake up. Methinks yez may have figured out pipeline thing, it ain't logic, Mayo u21's might bolster them v yez in semi '17 while wez await yez havin bate Tyrone who have it all to do.
Tell me, how do ya compare this Dubs teamn to Heffo's army?
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Post by veteran on Oct 8, 2016 21:01:34 GMT
I have to chuckle when people suggest that Kerry did not beat Tyrone when it mattered . A couple of years ago Kerry beat Tyrone in Killarney. Had Tyrone beaten Kerry in their own backyard it would probably have been one of the most devastating blows to Kerry football pride ever inflicted considering the recent rivalry between the counties. That victory did not really matter? Last year Kerry beat Tyrone in the semifinal . That victory did not really matter? Of course , Tyrone also beat Kerry when it reallly mattered . Knock out championship games always matter.
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Post by veteran on Oct 8, 2016 21:33:50 GMT
Those in favour of the black card are an endangered species . I am one of those facing extinction.
The first bit of advice I would give anybody favouring its abolishment is to familiarise yourself with the five indications for its use: deliberate body collide , deliberate trip, deliberate pull down, verbal abuse to an opponent, remonstration with an official . I get the impression that a large cohort of so called experts could not list these five situations where it is supposed to,be used. Those so callled experts include our own Tomas who who has become tiresome in his opposition.
There are some grey instances but the cast iron cases were implemented there would be little fuss. There are some grey instances also in the application of other rules - the handpass, steps, a player in possession surrounded by a squad od other players etc. Should we disperse with all these rules on the grounds that the application can be uncertain.
Not being consistently applied? I agree but how many rules are consistently applied?
The most ludicrous reason of all advanced for its abolition is " he has trained all year and now he is forced to miss the remainder of the game" The logical extension of that argument of course is that double yellows and red should also be abolished.
Look, our games , both hurling and football, are becoming increasingly lawless, I am not sure what people want when they campaign for abolishing the black card in the context of this increasingl lawlessness. I have no doubt in my mind if the black card was applied in the clear cut cases players would quickly adjust, indeed learn the rules, and the game would benefit enormously.
As for Lee Keegan? His dismissal possibly cost Mayo the game but I have no sympathy for him. Over the the two games he earned a couple of black cards. He gambled and he lost. Live by the sword , die by the sword.
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Post by baurtregaum on Oct 8, 2016 22:43:22 GMT
Agree Veteran. The problem is that the rules are not being consistently applied and depending on the ref and importance of the game it will vary a lot.
Maybe a TMO from provincial finals onward would help the refs out.
At club level it very much depends on the ref - some club refs don't seem interested in learning or applying the black card. There is some pr move against it since the AI final.
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Oct 8, 2016 22:57:21 GMT
Super post Vet.
The black card is a good thing. The implementation of the black card is a very bad thing. The TMO is a must. No progress will be made without it. If it is denied, I suggest the first opportunity to extend two red cards to one of each opposing team, will see a fairer progression of the remaining pantomime of any game instance.
F
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Oct 8, 2016 23:01:45 GMT
I don't think hurling has the same problems btw, it doesn't. It is is full of 'manly stuff' (Coady)
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 9, 2016 0:14:19 GMT
I am in favour of the black card. Handtrips are black and white as are body checks. Usually no ambiguity about those black cards.
Things get complicated with the pull down ...maybe they should limit the black card to the handtrip and the body check.
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Post by greengold35 on Oct 9, 2016 10:13:13 GMT
I am in favour of the black card. Handtrips are black and white as are body checks. Usually no ambiguity about those black cards. Things get complicated with the pull down ...maybe they should limit the black card to the handtrip and the body check. I think a review of the rules is required and this has been acknowledged by Eugene McGee. I would have thought that the body check would have been easy to police yet an infraction punishable by a noting is as follows: " To charge an opponent in the back or to the front, who is not in possession of the ball"- to me this is what James McCarthy did when he collided with Cillian O'Connor in the drawn final yet a black card was issued! Similarly, " to charge an opponent for the purpose of giving an advantage to a team mate" is a noting infraction yet now is often punishable by a black card. We could list numerous instances at national and club level where referees got it wrong but that wont solve the problem- like all rules, black card offences should be enforced but the rules are causing the problems in my opinion and their subjective application or non application is only adding to the frustration.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Oct 9, 2016 10:54:51 GMT
I am in favour of the black card. Handtrips are black and white as are body checks. Usually no ambiguity about those black cards. Things get complicated with the pull down ...maybe they should limit the black card to the handtrip and the body check. Was Mattie Donnelly's black card clear cut? I am pro the Black Card FWIW.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2016 11:55:52 GMT
I think the issue with the black card is the finality of it. One offence no matter how borderline and you are gone. Sinbin is certainly worth another look.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 9, 2016 16:09:42 GMT
I am in favour of the black card. Handtrips are black and white as are body checks. Usually no ambiguity about those black cards. Things get complicated with the pull down ...maybe they should limit the black card to the handtrip and the body check. Was Mattie Donnelly's black card clear cut?I am pro the Black Card FWIW. We are talking about "intention" and I have no doubt that Mattie would have avoided the collision if the player he hit was wearing a Tyrone jersey. The intention of the black card is laudable... remove spoiling cynical stuff but it doesnt deal with this. Its spoiling and cynical (not picking on Connolly here..just a good example). They wanted to remove the "Sean Cavanagh drag down v Monaghan" so they framed the rule around that. Thats the problem. Rugby have the penalty try and basketball have sanctions after x number of fouls.... other sports try to deal with this cynical stuff too. Its a work in progress with the black card. It needs to be revisited. But not abolished.
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Post by thebluepanther on Oct 9, 2016 17:27:47 GMT
I have to chuckle when people suggest that Kerry did not beat Tyrone when it mattered . A couple of years ago Kerry beat Tyrone in Killarney. Had Tyrone beaten Kerry in their own backyard it would probably have been one of the most devastating blows to Kerry football pride ever inflicted considering the recent rivalry between the counties. That victory did not really matter? Last year Kerry beat Tyrone in the semifinal . That victory did not really matter? Of course , Tyrone also beat Kerry when it reallly mattered . Knock out championship games always matter. Fair point, I was thinking of the games when both teams were the top 2 in the country in the noughties. But your right every knockout championship game matters, last year Kerry were in a no win situation. , they were expected to win and when they did no credit was forcoming, more a case of if Tyrone had of done this or that they could of won. Personally i felt Kerry had another gear last year had Tyrone got another goal. But had Kerry lost they would of had the usual Brolly tirade and Kerry would have been lambasted for losing to an Ulster team again. Not too dissimilar to us against Mayo this year, We were expected to win and now really it's seems to be more a case of what could of been for Mayo when people reflect on the game. Ignoring the fact that like yourselves last year against Tyrone , that when the game was there to be won ye kicked the last 4 points to seal it with mc Geaney making a difference, . We done similar with Costellos scores in final this year.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Oct 9, 2016 18:15:28 GMT
Was Mattie Donnelly's black card clear cut?I am pro the Black Card FWIW. We are talking about "intention" and I have no doubt that Mattie would have avoided the collision if the player he hit was wearing a Tyrone jersey. Your opinion isn't necessarily universal on that.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 9, 2016 18:48:54 GMT
Well said Bluepinkpeterpanter, I didn't believe in curses either 'til the two goals, and very nearly a third. Replay was just am err new management will make, pressed the panic button, Darragh said that Mayo will one day beat Kerry and Dublin just like Kerry have beaten Tyrone, bogey opposition. But did we beat the red hand when it really mattered?, and we are merely talking recent years. Will Mayo win when it matters, and lift Sam? Now, how all about these Sat league fixtures? Am I missing something? Wit is not one of your strong points Burnyourbackside , but I'll humour you. No truth is Kerry didn't beat Tyrone when it mattered, Dublin have beaten Kerry 4 times and Mayo 3 times when it mattered this centuary. But Kerry at the moment have fantastic minor teams if 3or 4 make the transition in the next couple of years It's not ridiculous to suggest they could win the next 2 or 3All Ireland's. Mayo are a serious outfit and if they win one could go on a roll. Most genuine Dub supporters like myself who travel the country for all league games (championship doesn't offer us this luxury) will stress , that at this moment it's a privilege to watch our team and to enjoy it ,because it can change in a moment. We also have not forgotten the heartbreak of the early nineties and embarrassing moments of the Pillar era . So it's refreshing to watch these Dub boys represent what most true Blues are like. I dont doubt your sincerity but I just cant understand how you could think that Dublin could go back to the pre 2010 era any time soon. We havent even seen the dividend from AIG. Dublin are going to be in the top 3 for as long into the future as you can look. The Tommy Lyons/Pillar era was due to poor structures at underage level over a long time. Its the opposite now. Dublin has the raw materials, Population. money and structures plus lots of other small advantages..no player has to live outside Dublin to work, 20 minutes to training, .....all taken together, very formidable. So relax and enjoy it. The future is blue. I've been saying that for years!
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 9, 2016 18:54:33 GMT
We are talking about "intention" and I have no doubt that Mattie would have avoided the collision if the player he hit was wearing a Tyrone jersey. Your opinion isn't necessarily universal on that. Only Mattie knows the answer. And Dermot probably!
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Oct 9, 2016 18:57:17 GMT
Wit is not one of your strong points Burnyourbackside , but I'll humour you. No truth is Kerry didn't beat Tyrone when it mattered, Dublin have beaten Kerry 4 times and Mayo 3 times when it mattered this centuary. But Kerry at the moment have fantastic minor teams if 3or 4 make the transition in the next couple of years It's not ridiculous to suggest they could win the next 2 or 3All Ireland's. Mayo are a serious outfit and if they win one could go on a roll. Most genuine Dub supporters like myself who travel the country for all league games (championship doesn't offer us this luxury) will stress , that at this moment it's a privilege to watch our team and to enjoy it ,because it can change in a moment. We also have not forgotten the heartbreak of the early nineties and embarrassing moments of the Pillar era . So it's refreshing to watch these Dub boys represent what most true Blues are like. I dont doubt your sincerity but I just cant understand how you could think that Dublin could go back to the pre 2010 era any time soon. We havent even seen the dividend from AIG. Dublin are going to be in the top 3 for as long into the future as you can look. The Tommy Lyons/Pillar era was due to poor structures at underage level over a long time. Its the opposite now. Dublin has the raw materials, Population. money and structures plus lots of other small advantages..no player has to live outside Dublin to work, 20 minutes to training, .....all taken together, very formidable. So relax and enjoy it. The future is blue. I've been saying that for years! 20 minutes to training??? Really.
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Post by ciarrailar on Oct 9, 2016 19:26:35 GMT
Those in favour of the black card are an endangered species . I am one of those facing extinction. The first bit of advice I would give anybody favouring its abolishment is to familiarise yourself with the five indications for its use: deliberate body collide , deliberate trip, deliberate pull down, verbal abuse to an opponent, remonstration with an official . I get the impression that a large cohort of so called experts could not list these five situations where it is supposed to,be used. Those so callled experts include our own Tomas who who has become tiresome in his opposition. There are some grey instances but the cast iron cases were implemented there would be little fuss. There are some grey instances also in the application of other rules - the handpass, steps, a player in possession surrounded by a squad od other players etc. Should we disperse with all these rules on the grounds that the application can be uncertain. Not being consistently applied? I agree but how many rules are consistently applied? The most ludicrous reason of all advanced for its abolition is " he has trained all year and now he is forced to miss the remainder of the game" The logical extension of that argument of course is that double yellows and red should also be abolished. Look, our games , both hurling and football, are becoming increasingly lawless, I am not sure what people want when they campaign for abolishing the black card in the context of this increasingl lawlessness. I have no doubt in my mind if the black card was applied in the clear cut cases players would quickly adjust, indeed learn the rules, and the game would benefit enormously. As for Lee Keegan? His dismissal possibly cost Mayo the game but I have no sympathy for him. Over the the two games he earned a couple of black cards. He gambled and he lost. Live by the sword , die by the sword. I couldn't agree more. Too many so called experts haven't the faintest idea of what black cards are actually for. Yes, referees need to get more consistent in their use but blaming the ref for a lad who has trained all year to get to that stage missing the rest of the match is so ridiculous! He should familiarise himself with the rules and then not commit the foul.
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Post by ciarrailar on Oct 9, 2016 19:30:33 GMT
I am in favour of the black card. Handtrips are black and white as are body checks. Usually no ambiguity about those black cards. Things get complicated with the pull down ...maybe they should limit the black card to the handtrip and the body check. Don't think there's any ambiguity with the 'pull down' either to be fair. Players try to con refs by hitting the deck at the merest pull 'back' and this is what creates issues. We have to trust the ref to decipher between 'pull back' and 'pull down'.....that's what he's there for.
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