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Post by southward on Oct 18, 2014 10:59:52 GMT
No mention of the weather conditions though... www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/off-the-ball/snorefest-in-donegal-club-clash-does-not-bode-well-30665347.htmlSnorefest in Donegal club clash does not bode well Colm Parkinson A result that caught my eye over the weekend was the Donegal senior football championship clash of Glenswilly and St Michael's. The game, between two of the best teams in Donegal club football, ended 1-4 to 1-2 in favour of Michael Murphy's Glenswilly. A shocking statistic is that neither team scored a point from play in the game. This must be some kind of record in senior championship football. This is the legacy Jim McGuinness has left behind in Donegal. Copycat club managers trying to emulate what Jim did with the Donegal inter-county team, with much less coaching ability and less talented players, is resulting in dour games like this. I've defended Donegal's tactics many times in the past but it's difficult to have anything positive to say about a scoreline like that in club football, especially given the quality of players that both sides fielded last weekend. Spectators simply won't pay in to see football like that. Games like this one show that the doomsday scenario Joe Brolly predicts will happen the inter-county game because of massed defences could yet come to pass. Irish Independent Sounds like a cracker alright.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 19, 2014 12:04:35 GMT
from watching Jim on TV last night, its clear that his star is rising in Celtic. He started off in some sort of role with young players and he put in a system to track progress. He is now involved with the first team and seems to be highly thought of.
An interesting man. He never looks back, never watches old videos of games, its all about living in the moment and being the best you can be at that moment. He had one child when he took over Donegal. He has 5 now! While he gave Kerry credit for getting their game plan right, he seems perplexed why Donegal didn't deliver a performance up to their standard. I would have thought the two were somehow related! Brendan out of his depth of course in sporting issues..... never asked how amateur GAA players and professional occer players differed etc
JMG sent a text telling his squad that he was leaving and he hasn't seen a lot of the players since the final. He saw that as no big deal in todays world.
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Post by glengael on Oct 19, 2014 13:30:11 GMT
I might watch it on the RTE Player.
Celtic are an interesting place.Unchallenged now in a v. small pond.
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fitz
Fanatical Member
Red sky at night get off my land
Posts: 1,719
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Post by fitz on Oct 19, 2014 14:51:52 GMT
givehimtheball, youre paragraphs above could be the inspiration for the entire structure of a book. Yes of course we had good players before his arrival, but no better than the likes of Kildare or Meath in today's terms. To get them not only to achieve but to consistently achieve at the highest level, is remarkable. I couldnt picture either of them winning 13 out of 14 ulster games in 4 seasons. Nor could I picture either of those teams reaching 2 all irelands, and winning 1 of them. I am going to do a bit of the old beal bocht here, and suggest that donegal has almost zero gaa tradition. we won 3 of our 8 ulsters in the last 4 years. (out of 130 odd years). Suddenly we are competing with the very best teams in the country. And yes you are also right that the team deserve enormous credit for buying into McGuinness plan. The annual hammerings that we took around the country were hard to take. Dublin in 2002, armagh in 2004 and 2005. Tyrone and Monaghan in 2007, Cork in 2009 after a humiliating defeat to antrim at home. (not to mention defeats to cavan in 2005 and fermanagh THREE TIMES in 2001, 2003 and 2004). The armagh defeat in 2010 was in ways the worst ever. What other teams in the country have been beaten by fermanagh 3 times in the space of 4 seasons other than another division 4 side. We were muck. Now we are not. We are suddenly building a tradition in the present, from next to nothing. We would have given any team in the country a good game, a single game that is, in a given year, and that was it. Not so from now on. thousands welcomed the defeated team home on monday 22nd. the speech was about having to accept that if we were going to compete at the very top level each year, we would have to accept defeats of this magnitude along the way. McGuinness was as good a loser as he was a winner. There are thousands playing gaa now in the county, and attending gaa club games when in the past they wouldnt. I feel that this is an equal achievement to what he won. Consistency and belief is his legacy. Yes the game is not what it was, but it was only a mater of time before it was going to go this direction. It will evolve again and again before long, last year we thought that mayo were on to something special. This year we all thought the same about dublin. But they will come back next year, thanks to JMG with a plan B. I also think that we will see him again in about 5 years time in charge of donegal. In the mean time, we will see, but I think that there is much to be positive within the county. I wouldnt agree with everything that he did, but his record will show results and consistency that we never achieved before him. "But they will come back next year, thanks to JMG with a plan B". Can you explain that for me please? My point about the players was that they had to put what was planned into practice. They had to do all the training, all the preparation, the work and so on, and go out and actually do it. Until you have players who can and are willing to do all that, then the coach can be Merlin and it won't make more difference than "improvement". Hence last year, with as far as I recall the same coach, Donegal were brutal after the Tyrone game in the UC. Now I know the reasons, but the fact is that they couldn't get even close to what they had been for the previous 2 years. Because that commitment by the players just wasn't possible last year. You cannot say confidently that any group of players of some ability when coached by JMG would produce a similar result. Yes he would surely improve them if they were underperforming but still only if they themselves wanted to do so, to the level that would be set by him. So for example, if Jim were to try coaching Galway, and it failed pretty badly, the conclusion would be what? That the Galway players were not good enough. And/or that they didn't buy into the plan/requirements. That for me would be proof that the Donegal players deserve alot more credit for having actually made those wins & performances in Ulster and the All-I series happen. Jack O'Connor might not have got the current Kerry squad to do what they did this year. Pat Gilroy the same in 2011. It was the players themselves who stepped up and embodied the ideas and plans. furthermore, whatever about rigidity of structure and tactics, the players on the field had to be able to make complicated and difficult decisions in response to what happened in the game. As Donegal did in the All-I semi this year. Yes JMG had planned, and sent out orders but it's not as simple as that. The pre JMG Donegal never believed, an odd good performance here and there. Murphy and Lacey were both in the 09 team that were ransacked by Cork. Of course the players deserve huge credit, no question, but JMG was the tickmaker. He united a perpetually disjointed squad. He made them believe and made them want to be a team, he mapped a journey and they all wanted the road as tough as it got. That was his most significant achievement, the winning of their minds and bestowing unbreakable belief. He showed them how they could win an All Ireland, if they were prepared to do it. Winning the all Ireland was never a realistic ir I'd say even mentioned goal for Donegal. It helped that he had a couple of leasers in Murphy and Lacey, but the man is obviously addictive. I can't say for certain but I can't think of a man who could have got an All Ireland from that team. Saying all that beyond saying we got our tactics right last night on O'Connor was as much grace he'd give. If they had played how they know they can play he thinks they would have won, which is fair enough but he also indicated some of them may have thought it was in the bag. Surprising, naive and a bit disrespectful I venture. Maybe his team were just not let play how they can play, or again maybe if we played like we can play as against Cork they would have got a hosing. The bottom line is undisputable, if they were a better team they would have won
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Post by donegalman on Oct 19, 2014 19:45:11 GMT
Saying all that beyond saying we got our tactics right last night on O'Connor was as much grace he'd give. If they had played how they know they can play he thinks they would have won, which is fair enough but he also indicated some of them may have thought it was in the bag. Surprising, naive and a bit disrespectful I venture. Maybe his team were just not let play how they can play, or again maybe if we played like we can play as against Cork they would have got a hosing. The bottom line is undisputable, if they were a better team they would have won
Disagree with this.
He did not say he thought they would have won for a start. He says he thought they might have won. Big difference in would and might in this instance. Where did he indicate that the team thought it was in the bag? The bottom line is as you say indisputable and JMG acknowledges this by saying kerry were the better team on the day, despite under-performing themselves. I would see this as being complimentary as well as honest. The video is on youtube. I think that it is worth watching again, JMG is not a bad lad, nor did he say anything that made out that donegal threw the match away or that kerry were undeserving of winning the final.
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Post by veteran on Oct 19, 2014 20:04:05 GMT
I watched Brendan O'Connor's show last night to see Jim in action. I am not sure why he agreed to appear as the host does no appear to have any knowledge/interest in the GAA and ,as he was not pushing a book , one wonders what the purpose of the segment was. Perhaps, the fact that Jim is this unique hybrid of managing a GAA team while having strong links with a professional soccer may have given the programme some prurient merit.
I was hoping for a detailed analysis of why Donegal lost the final. Sadly, I was to be disappointed. No probing questions from the host, no blinding insights from Jim. Merely, a rehashing of his surprise that his team, in spite of having perfect preparations, did not reprise what they had previously done on similar occasions, wondering if they felt the deed was already enacted before the game had started. The latter presumtion is intriguing in the context of a team managed by man replete with qualifications in sports psychology/sorts science etc.
Jim is an interesting man and there is no doubting his accomplishments in GAA and in soccer. I listened to him with great care I came to one conclusion, unkind as it maybe. His response to the final defeat seems to be muddled because it seems to be circumscribed by the rigid system with which his team play, albeit with a lot of success. In other words, no avenue is left unexplored in preparing for a contest and those preparations are then moulded to The System, leaving little or no room for contemplation of defeat within that framework. As far as I can recall, Mr. Brolly recounted for us a conversation he had with Jim, the jist of which was, allowing for my impaired memory, that the team with The System invariably wins. Now when Mr. Brolly was talking to us about the system he did not clarify which system he was referring to but presumably it was Jim's system, The System.
So how do you rationalise a failure of The System? When a system , by this I now mean the preparations and the game enactment, is elevated to the plane that The System was, then perhaps its failure does not lend itself to ready analysis when you are inextricably involved with it, as Jim was. When you patent it and seemingly fireproof it , then maybe all you can offer by way of an apologia is , "I do not understand". A complex, sophisticated system that comes up short is not amenable to simple answers? I disagree, Jim.
The problem with The System is what happens when you are confronted by a team who employs that same system or a slight variation of it? Witness Armagh's display against Donegal when they came very close to winning that match, employing more or less The System. Should that not have been a warning to Jim that in certain circumstances The System may not prevail. It would appear that Jim did not heed the warning, taking comfort form the fact victory was his. This complacency was compounded when The System saw off the unbeatable Dubs. And so the final arrived and the only question was would Kerry employ the Dublin system or, having watched it being dismantled by The System, would they rather confront "evil with evil". We now know that both teams engaged, more or less, in a battle of The System with the team applying it less rigidly winning the trophy, albeit narrowly.
My thesis is this. I don't think Jim is deliberately stinting in his acknowledgement of Kerry's victory. Rather, he was so central to the genesis of The System and its apparent fireproofing that he could not contemplate a setback and when that setback transpired he is unable to give a rational explanation. In summary my answer for JIm is, Donegal were eventaully hamstrung by The System, while Kerry were not bound by its terms of reference.
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Post by donegalman on Oct 19, 2014 22:08:09 GMT
Interesting post veteran. And a good one too.
I think that you are most likely correct about the system not working last month, I dont know for sure, but lets just keep it simple and agree that it didnt work the day of the final. The difficulty that McGuinness and donegal had was playing to the system saw the team through some very close edgy games, and against top class opposition. To beat a team as good as dublin in the semi final, would mean that the system would be used in the final unconditionally. It would have been lunacy to do otherwise, despite what feelings people have or had about it. (Why would we do something differently in the final, when the stats were there to back up using what was working)?
Which leads directly to the point about Jim being asked about why donegal didnt win. Under performance is exactly what most managers would say in defense of their team, and that is where McGuinness starts from, and unfortunately finishes. (Not enough time, and perhaps the wrong program to do this, Second Captain would have been the ideal broadcast for this). He did make a very important point about the level of preparation necessary for the dublin match, ie that if you didnt play to 100%, you would get annihilated never mind beaten.
Might we deduce from this that donegal's big big game was for the semi final, and to reach the same level 3 weeks later may not have been achievable, despite all the psychology under the sun? I am sure that they prepared perfectly for the game, so the only other thing that McGuinness says about the final is that kerry were better on the day, and despite not playing to their fullest potential, got their tactics and game plan spot on.
But this would be a disingenuous thing to say and he doesnt say it. So he says he doesnt know, and hasnt thought about it. I dont think he is in denial or in any way hedging his bets about why we were beaten. He is a very clear thinker and an honest dude too.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Oct 20, 2014 2:20:54 GMT
Jim McGuinness was extraordinarily if naturally passionate on Brendan O'Connor. He is so direct and focused, straight forward. Jim was silent on O'Connor's last word re Jim becoming Celtic manager, maybe Jim didn't have the chance to reply and the camera man would have to be on side with Brendan, maybe O'Connor was point scoring wanting to be first with the news/prediction, or maybe I'm over analysing it? What did others think?
And by the way Jim also said that he wouldn't have made his decisions differently if the game was replayed.
Re Veteran and donegalman, my conclusion is that Kerry Donegalled Donegal and Jim said Kerry were better. One experience I would like to share with others is a recommendation to watch the game again, I for one was so nervous that enjoyment on the day was a non runner, I live in Donegal and for other reasons didn't make the semis or the final this year. I hurt myself with an awkward turn on the couch watching the game in Limerick and a fellow if neutral couch spectator on All Ireland day had to rearrange the furniture after the game that I have no recollection of moving!
My point is, watch the game again. My conclusion is that it WAS a great game and of immense intensity, Donegal were very good but we were just that bit better, teams in a way cancelled each other out. Jim alluded to that and there was nothing complex about it, well apart from some pundits over analysing it.
I have a sneaky feeling it may be the same 4 teams in the semis again next year and there is certainty you'd bet the rent money on, although I think we a bit special. Look at it like this, if the 4 teams played it out again, would the outcome be the same? A harrowing thought but it just shows the standard was so high and how close it all was, and long may that be the case, once we win by a teeny weenie little bit of course!
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fitz
Fanatical Member
Red sky at night get off my land
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Post by fitz on Oct 20, 2014 11:15:21 GMT
Saying all that beyond saying we got our tactics right last night on O'Connor was as much grace he'd give. If they had played how they know they can play he thinks they would have won, which is fair enough but he also indicated some of them may have thought it was in the bag. Surprising, naive and a bit disrespectful I venture. Maybe his team were just not let play how they can play, or again maybe if we played like we can play as against Cork they would have got a hosing. The bottom line is undisputable, if they were a better team they would have wonDisagree with this. He did not say he thought they would have won for a start. He says he thought they might have won. Big difference in would and might in this instance. Where did he indicate that the team thought it was in the bag? The bottom line is as you say indisputable and JMG acknowledges this by saying kerry were the better team on the day, despite under-performing themselves. I would see this as being complimentary as well as honest. The video is on youtube. I think that it is worth watching again, JMG is not a bad lad, nor did he say anything that made out that donegal threw the match away or that kerry were undeserving of winning the final. Fair enough D'man, I will watch it again and report back. I'm nearly boggled now with system algebra, might I venture a much more simplistic prognosis that 1) Kerry got their matchups 1:1 pretty much nailed, but possibly more key, is that Kerry won more of these 1:1 battles throughout the pitch and systems merely flowed from these contests.
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Post by donegalman on Oct 20, 2014 12:49:30 GMT
Yes fitzwop, that is a good assessment. I think that the big difference on the day was taking chances that were not easy. The point in the second half that drew kerry level having gone behind for the first time was perhaps the biggest score of the day, possibly even bigger than the actual goal 10 minutes later. We normally would have pushed on at that stage for about 10 minutes, but it didnt happen, and it was down to what kerry did just as much as it was down to our own decision making in the same period. That is life and I have made peace with this even on the sunday after the game.
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Post by buck02 on Oct 20, 2014 15:09:39 GMT
No mention of the weather conditions though... www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/off-the-ball/snorefest-in-donegal-club-clash-does-not-bode-well-30665347.htmlSnorefest in Donegal club clash does not bode well Colm Parkinson A result that caught my eye over the weekend was the Donegal senior football championship clash of Glenswilly and St Michael's. The game, between two of the best teams in Donegal club football, ended 1-4 to 1-2 in favour of Michael Murphy's Glenswilly. A shocking statistic is that neither team scored a point from play in the game. This must be some kind of record in senior championship football. This is the legacy Jim McGuinness has left behind in Donegal. Copycat club managers trying to emulate what Jim did with the Donegal inter-county team, with much less coaching ability and less talented players, is resulting in dour games like this. I've defended Donegal's tactics many times in the past but it's difficult to have anything positive to say about a scoreline like that in club football, especially given the quality of players that both sides fielded last weekend. Spectators simply won't pay in to see football like that. Games like this one show that the doomsday scenario Joe Brolly predicts will happen the inter-county game because of massed defences could yet come to pass. Irish Independent Sounds like a cracker alright. We cant really get on our high horse in this regard. Last year in the county semi final a team scored a total of 0-3, with no score coming from play. This year in the semi final a team scored 0-0 in the first half. I also remember a county final a few years ago that ended 1-4 to 0-6.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Oct 21, 2014 13:05:15 GMT
JMG certainly arouses alot of attention. No doubt he's making the best of being such a hot property, people really like to talk about him and to hear him speak etc. He's alot more fascinating and provocative for discussion that Eamon Fitzmaurice, Jim Gavin or James Horan. It's certainly a newer trend for one or two of the top coaches and players to be much more high profile than traditionally the case. Tadgh Kennelly was another recent example. The culture is changing towards one more typical of major pro sports. It's a brasher more ruthless and in-your-face culture. Nothing wrong with that, just the times we live in. Brian Cody is an old-school type who has survived and thrived in these times, because it's hurling, and because he manages to be both completely ruthless and yet very charming and evenj low key. In the words of a Shakesperean king, he can "smile while he kills".
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Post by Ballyfireside on Oct 21, 2014 19:17:50 GMT
I think JMcG is in the media because he has resigned and has pursued an unusual career path, combining soccer with Gaelic management, both at high levels. He used to take notice of media fellas winding him up and he'd react and I do believe he made a stick for his own backside when he asserted that they didn't want to be remembered as the team that were beaten by 16 points by Mayo. While it is much worse to be also remembered as the northern style team that transitional Kerry. as rank outsiders beat in the final, I personally think Jim will be remembered as the man who delivered Donegal's 2nd Sam and how he brought them from literally nowhere, changing the culture and hopefully permanently. GAA in Donegal is now serious stuff, everyone is really interested, and that is largely due to Jim's leadership. I may have said it elsewhere that anyone who writes Donegal off for next year is living in Cockoo land. Armagh caught them with their eye off the ball and they beat Dublin who just didn't become bad overnight. I'd fancy them for Ulster and I think it could be the same 4 provincial finalists in the semis again in '15, and although there was so little between them this year, I think Sam will come home again and I had a wee little punt on a 3 and 4 in a row at odds that now look very attractive, so I better avoid Barry's hotel after AI finals of '16 and '17!
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Post by donegalman on Oct 21, 2014 19:39:19 GMT
I honestly dont think that JMG will be too hard on himself after losing last month. You are right about 2013, he would have retired at a very low ebb after the mayo game, and although he quit after losing the final, it was not really a rank outside kerry team, relative to donegal, who beat us. In May, you would have gotten kerry at about 10/1 to win the all ireland, while we were more like 12's or even 14's. On the final day we were 6/4 on while kerry were something like 6/4 against, so it was fairly close in the market.
I wouldnt discount our chances in ulster next year, but it will be the hardest ulster in the last 5 years for us. We will be playing tyrone in harte's last year, and it is impossible to look beyond that fixture. You simply cant plan any further ahead, it could just as easily be tyrone v armagh as donegal v armagh in the next round. (not to mention down/derry and then possibly monaghan after that). How can you plan for it?
You are right about the GAA in donegal now as well. I have never seen so much interest. our minors and u21s are flying again next year, and the county u16s are supposed to be an exceptionally talented bunch too. I just hope that we move on from the system. It would be fab to see the likes of Murphy at the edge of the square or in around the house with Mcbrearty moving around there also.
You are a brave man to predict a 2 in a row, never mind 3 in a row for kerry, but the reality is that kerry can now win ugly if needs be, as well as sublimely, and that is a seriously ominous sign for the rest of us.
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Post by southward on Oct 21, 2014 21:26:00 GMT
I think JMcG is in the media because he has resigned and has pursued an unusual career path, combining soccer with Gaelic management, both at high levels. He used to take notice of media fellas winding him up and he'd react and I do believe he made a stick for his own backside when he asserted that they didn't want to be remembered as the team that were beaten by 16 points by Mayo. While it is much worse to be also remembered as the northern style team that transitional Kerry. as rank outsiders beat in the final, I personally think Jim will be remembered as the man who delivered Donegal's 2nd Sam and how he brought them from literally nowhere, changing the culture and hopefully permanently. GAA in Donegal is now serious stuff, everyone is really interested, and that is largely due to Jim's leadership. I may have said it elsewhere that anyone who writes Donegal off for next year is living in Cockoo land. Armagh caught them with their eye off the ball and they beat Dublin who just didn't become bad overnight. I'd fancy them for Ulster and I think it could be the same 4 provincial finalists in the semis again in '15, and although there was so little between them this year, I think Sam will come home again and I had a wee little punt on a 3 and 4 in a row at odds that now look very attractive, so I better avoid Barry's hotel after AI finals of '16 and '17! Ah ffs, K Man, leave that stuff to the Dubs I'm blaming you if Tipp do us next year.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 21, 2014 21:52:40 GMT
K.Man.... EF will put a fatwa on you
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