Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2011 19:05:54 GMT
Thanks Delorean. I was in UCC in 1999 and it was a subject of much debate back then. Even though I enjoyed winding the Cork lads up about the whole UCK thing, I must admit the whole thing did not sit right overall.
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Post by veteran on Sept 26, 2011 20:06:31 GMT
This UCC conundrum only raises its head when UCC win the Cork county or threaten to win it . This is a rare enough event. I remember towards the end of the sixties/early seventies, UCC was very strong with players from Kerry like Brendan Lynch, Mick Morris, Dan Kavanagh, Paudie Lynch and players from Cork like Billy Morgan , Ray Cummins, Seamus Looney Simon Murphy, Ted Murphy etc and this issue was very contentious as well. The same arguments were advanced.
I can certainly understand clubs being disgruntled if their players declare/ have to declare for UCC. However, the most cogent argument advanced in favour of the status quo was the imperative of gaelic games being fostered at third level. Back then, and I am sure the same obtains now, rugby and soccer was very strong in UCC. It was felt by college sympathisers that the best way to foster football/hurling in the college was by competing as vigorously as possible in all competitions open to them. Obviously, the best way to achieve that was to have as wide a pick as possible. I know that third level colleges have their own competitions but there is a special glamour about competing in the local championship. Back then, as far as I can recall, the same rules applied to the rugby players. For example, young lads who would have played underage rugby with Cork Consitution, Dolphin, Highfield etc would play rugby with UCC while undergraduates there and revert back to their own clubs on graduation. Indeed some Irish Internationals won their first cap while playing with UCC e.g. Jerry Walsh, Pat Parfrey and our own Tommy Doyle from Currow. Can't you imagine the glamorous attraction that had for freshers at UCC, the possibility of playing club rugby with these stars. This attraction would be counterbalanced by freshers playing with All-Ireland winners like Brendan Lynch, Seamus Looney, Simon Murphy etc.
There was a similar debate about the wisdom of allowing Institutes of Technology compete in third level colleges competitions when those colleges were brought on stream. If you remember I.T.T. were very strong initially, with inter county players from all over the country, and won, as far as I can recall, a couple of Sigersons. The argument against these new colleges petered out as time went on.
It is a difficult question, particularly with the anomaly of the national club championship. I am not sure what the solution is but whatever it is, it should not result in a weakening of football/hurling within third level colleges. Perhaps, for example, the Kerry lads should not be allowed play with their home clubs. I would prefer that solution rather than see a weakening of the UCC club whose continuing good health is hugely important in my view.
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dring
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Post by dring on Sept 26, 2011 21:12:41 GMT
In Dublin a few years ago UCD looked like they could win the hurling every year and they withdrew, still in the football where I think they've only won one title in almost 40 years.
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Post by longpuck on Sept 26, 2011 21:24:41 GMT
In Dublin a few years ago UCD looked like they could win the hurling every year and they withdrew, still in the football where I think they've only won one title in almost 40 years. They didn't withdraw the Dublin County Board didn't let them back in after they won it a few times
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Post by delorean on Sept 27, 2011 8:09:11 GMT
This UCC conundrum only raises its head when UCC win the Cork county or threaten to win it Of course this is true, but only to a point. The debate certainly intensifies when the college threaten to win it, especially with a panel of predominantly non-Corkonians. However, every time UCC/CIT win a match in the County Championship, I'm sure there are many gripes within the club that they have eliminated. Your main argument seems to take into account what is good for the colleges, but I would be more concerned what is good for the Cork County Championship. There are similar reservations about the inclusion of the divisional teams, but at least they can only choose from Junior/Intermediate clubs and don't represent the county should they win it. I don't think there would be many in Cork happy with UCC flying the flag for the county to be honest. Perhaps, for example, the Kerry lads should not be allowed play with their home clubs. I would prefer that solution rather than see a weakening of the UCC club whose continuing good health is hugely important in my view. This would makes things more straight forward in terms of clashes and the Munster/All Ireland series, but I think it would be a travesty for the clubs to loose the players that they basically created, potentially for a few years, in their own Senior County Championship, and for what?...so the player can go and win a different County Championship with a team that couldn't possibly mean as much to him with a bunch of more or less strangers. There are plenty of colleges who don't get to compete in their counties club championship, so I'm not sure why you feel it's so important that we should maintain the ones that do?
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Post by playitfair on Sept 27, 2011 11:32:54 GMT
I think that there are two sides to this debate. One is the point that players can play in two county championships whish would appear inherently wrong.
On the other side, it gives students in UCC the opportunity to play in the Cork Club Championship which is a wonderful experience and makes the GAA club in UCC so special and beings another factor to Cork GAA.
I would have believed in point 1 some years ago, however with the passage of time, I think that they should be allowed play given the positives that it brings.
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Post by veteran on Sept 27, 2011 17:04:00 GMT
Competing for the loyalty of players between GAA/Rugby/Soccer used to be intense in UCC in years gone by. I suspect it is more intense now that rugby is currently the flavour of the month in this country. In that context, everything possible should be done to promote the GAA at third level and indeed at second level. Sour the GAA experience of a third level student and what is likely to happen? He is likely to drift towards rugby or soccer. Say that student graduates to become a secondary school teacher, what game is he then likely to promote in that school? Further on, what game is he likely to encourage his children to embrace?
In a similar vein, I read a very interesting and enlightening interview in last Saturday's Examiner with Juliet Murphy, a member of Cork's ladies football team. Juliet detailed the sacrifices female footballers make to become proficient at their game but, sadly, she lamented they tend to be cold shouldered by the GAA, not least in being allowed to play in the better GAA pitches. Part of Juliet's childhood memories are of being taken to Kerry/Cork games in Pairc Ui Chaoimh(spelling?). Astonishingly, she has never been allowed to play football in the spiritual home of Cork GAA since she was a child. The all conquering Cork ladies football team have never had the privilege, dare I say the right, of playing there. Would that happen with any another sporting organisation? Presumably, lady footballers have the same experience all over the country. As a consequence,it would be no surprise if a significant swathe of them became disenchanted with the GAA. If that happens/is happening, will they encourage their children to play football or hurling or are they more likely to drift towards another code which will treat them with respect?
The principle involved with the ladies and third level colleges is the same. The day is long gone when the GAA can take the loyalty of players and indeed supporters for granted. I acknowledge the anomaly which arises if say Dr. Crokes and UCC win their respective championships. A possible way round that would be disbar the Kerry lads from playing in the Kerry championship. It would mean some clubs losing some players for a mere three or four years. That is a small price to pay for a thriving GAA within UCC and down the line in secondary schools when these graduates become teachers and parents.
By fostering the GAA at third level and secondary level you are taking the long term view over a short term one. Likewise, by keeping the lady footballers sweet you are creating invaluable goodwill down the tracks. Take the short term, narrow view and you are likely to reap the whirlwind.
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dring
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Post by dring on Sept 27, 2011 17:58:24 GMT
re UCD in the SHC I could be wrong but I thought they withdrew voluntarily after clubs made it clear they were not welcome. Under the Official Guide I don't think the Dublin County Board were entitled to ban them. Have the Limerick championships ever included the Uni team since the Spillanes and Talty won the All Ireland in the 70s?
Good debate overall.
The Crokes /UCC anomaly is not such an issue in my opinion as the Munster Club championship is a different competition and so once a player plays for one team in that he cannot play for another.
If guys were not allowed to play with their home clubs then the colleges just wouldn't be able to field teams. Almost half of the UCC Sigerson team played for their home clubs in the Cork SFC this year ie Ken O'Halloran, Barry O'Driscoll, James Fitzpatrick, Mark Collins.
The point about the divisional teams being deprived is a good one but on the other hand the good player from a junior/inter club really benefits from training and playing with top class players and can be a better player for the division and even the county when he is older. Sean Kiely is a case in point this year as he could have played with Muskerry (his fellow Macrompian Eoin O'Mahoney did) but he can do that for the rest of his career unless of course Macroom get back up to senior.
I don't think there's a lot of resentment in Cork. Even when UCC won in 1999 they only stopped Nemo getting another title so no other club realistically missed out. Some people say that too may Tipp/Kilkenny hurlers and Kerry footballers are benefitting from the UCC system but so are plenty of Cork players. Of this year's team Mellet, Kiely, Kennedy and Clancy are all potential Cork seniors. Of the 1999 team Cork got Quirke and O Cróinín while Kerry who dominated the team only got Galvin, Fitzmaurice and Brosnan.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2011 19:06:48 GMT
If UCC were more successful, there would be a lot more resentment. The reality is that most people in UCC could not care less whether UCC won the championship or not. That in itself should tell you that something isn't right with this.
There are plenty of other competitions for students to play football with the college.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Sept 27, 2011 19:45:32 GMT
Only one person has made the point that many of these players attend UCC on sports scholarships. For example, Adrian Greaney had a sports scholarship last year.
I know these students definitely have to compete at an intervarsity level... while I'm sure any student who refuses to play championship is almost certainly not going to get his/ her scholarship renewed is he/ she?
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dring
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Post by dring on Sept 27, 2011 20:18:38 GMT
If they were more successful (ie Nemo have won 18 of the last 40 titles) it would tell you that UCC had an unfair advantage and that would obviously generate resentment. The fact that they (and UCD in Dublin) only contend maybe once every decade tells me that the system is about right. You're right about the support aspect in that maybe only a few hundred of the 10K people in UCC would be interested. After all it is an academic institution. I don't think that tells you something is wrong with the rules that allow UCC to compete. It says more about modern urban living and a lack of sense of community. How many supporters do city clubs like Nemo and Vincents bring along? Not too many more and certainly very few from outside the club. You have to admire clubs like Haven who are now bringing effectively a third generation of players to the top table.
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Post by delorean on Sept 28, 2011 11:23:09 GMT
Veteran - I really think you are magnifying the importance of the role that the colleges play in promoting interest levels in the GAA, certainly when it comes to their participation (or non-participation) in the Club Championship(s). I agree with Ciarraíabú to a large extent. I have nothing whatsoever to back this up, but I would imagine that the Sigerson Cup would be a competition closer to their hearts anyway, and certainly the rest of those attending the college, given that they are playing their own kind and 'rival' colleges. I also think it would be a much bigger deal if the players clubs were forced to do without them for "a mere 3 or 4 years" than you seem to indicate. Call me sentimental but a player being forced to turn his back on the club that has got him to where he is should be an absolute non-runner in my opinion, unless it's a scholarship-type situation, like Annascaultilidie alluded to. I'd put that down to a career choice.
Also, where is the line drawn in relation to colleges? For example, would Cork College of Commerce be able to enter the Championship next year if they saw fit, or do they have to be of a certain size/stature? (Obviously this is hypothetical, just curious!)
Do you feel that the level of interest in GAA in Kerry suffers from the non-participation of the ITT in the Club Championship? (Or indeed would it improve significantly if this wasn't the case?)
I agree with you 100% with the points you laid out in relation to the ladies footballers, but I don't think the principals are even close to being the same. Treating one gender as second class citizens hardly equates to allowing colleges compete in college competitions only.
Dring - I suppose I strayed slightly off topic with the comparison to the inclusion of the divisional sides. I agree with you for the most part in relation to this. It is clear that the inclusion of the divisions has merits for the county, in that Junior/Intermediate players get more exposure and experience from playing in the Senior Championship. I find it difficult to see similar benefits for the inclusion of the colleges as the players from senior clubs are exposed enough anyway.
I wouldn't totally agree that the Cork Club and the Munster Club Championships are separate competitions; well technically you're probably right, but seeing as you have to win one to qualify for the other, they are too closely inter-linked to be treated independently in my opinion.
Also, surely UCC winning the title in 1999 affected more than just Nemo? Maybe Nemo would have won it against any other opposition, but we'll never know that for sure.
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Post by longpuck on Sept 28, 2011 11:57:59 GMT
r e UCD in the SHC I could be wrong but I thought they withdrew voluntarily after clubs made it clear they were not welcome. Under the Official Guide I don't think the Dublin County Board were entitled to ban them. Have the Limerick championships ever included the Uni team since the Spillanes and Talty won the All Ireland in the 70s?Good debate overall. The Crokes /UCC anomaly is not such an issue in my opinion as the Munster Club championship is a different competition and so once a player plays for one team in that he cannot play for another. If guys were not allowed to play with their home clubs then the colleges just wouldn't be able to field teams. Almost half of the UCC Sigerson team played for their home clubs in the Cork SFC this year ie Ken O'Halloran, Barry O'Driscoll, James Fitzpatrick, Mark Collins. The point about the divisional teams being deprived is a good one but on the other hand the good player from a junior/inter club really benefits from training and playing with top class players and can be a better player for the division and even the county when he is older. Sean Kiely is a case in point this year as he could have played with Muskerry (his fellow Macrompian Eoin O'Mahoney did) but he can do that for the rest of his career unless of course Macroom get back up to senior. I don't think there's a lot of resentment in Cork. Even when UCC won in 1999 they only stopped Nemo getting another title so no other club realistically missed out. Some people say that too may Tipp/Kilkenny hurlers and Kerry footballers are benefitting from the UCC system but so are plenty of Cork players. Of this year's team Mellet, Kiely, Kennedy and Clancy are all potential Cork seniors. Of the 1999 team Cork got Quirke and O Cróinín while Kerry who dominated the team only got Galvin, Fitzmaurice and Brosnan. UCD are envited to play in the County Championships by the Dublin County Board and when they started to win it they stoped enviting them, i would think the same thing happens with UCC & CIT. UL plaayed in the Limerick Championship during the 90's and won it one year Mike Frank may have been playing with them at the time. They got to the final another year but lost on an objection. They also often failed to feild a team.
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Post by longpuck on Sept 28, 2011 12:05:38 GMT
I think if the Tralee IT team entered the hurling championship it would rase the standered as the Kerry clubs would be playing high quealty players.
How ever a few things have to be looked at.
(1) Would the players commit to it? Most of the Tralee team that won last years Rayn Cup weren't from Kerry so would they travel outside of college? (2) Would they be too strong for the championship in the same way UCD were in Dublin? (3) Would it mean anything for a lad from say Clare to win a Kerry Championship?
A few years back Waterford IT eneterd the Waterford Championship for one year. At the time they were all-conquering at college level in the Fitzgibbon etc and had the likes of Ollie Moran and JJ Delaney in the ranks, however they made no impact on the championship whatsoever as it wasnt taken seriously by them.
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Post by mikelyster on Oct 1, 2011 23:02:54 GMT
Is it true that UCC have Shane Enright for the year ahead?
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dring
Junior Member
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Post by dring on Oct 13, 2011 22:13:24 GMT
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Post by delorean on Oct 14, 2011 9:29:58 GMT
The game is live on TG4
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Jo90
Fanatical Member
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Post by Jo90 on Oct 14, 2011 9:32:53 GMT
I wasn't expecting an answer like this from a ref: Best gig you have ever attended? Beyoncé at the O2, 2009
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Oct 14, 2011 9:35:16 GMT
I wasn't expecting an answer like this from a ref: Best gig you have ever attended? Beyoncé at the O2, 2009
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Oct 14, 2011 9:41:36 GMT
Actually Paddy O'Doherty on that team is married to my aunt and has been coming down to Ballyferriter for many, many years with the extended family --- I believe he won a Fitzgibbon also and his brother is Martin O'Doherty who was full back for Cork's 3 in a row in the hurling from '76 to '78.
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Post by glengael on Oct 14, 2011 10:09:34 GMT
Great link, even if I have a headache from all that weird red colour at the top.. Best of luck to the College on Sunday.
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Post by veteran on Oct 14, 2011 14:03:06 GMT
That Martin Doherty played in the full back line for the Cork footballers as well. In the 1975 Munster final he allowed a ball to slip from his hands into the net. It sticks in my mind because Billy Morgan gave him an earfull! I think that might have finished his intercounty football career.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Oct 14, 2011 14:08:12 GMT
That Martin Doherty played in the full back line for the Cork footballers as well. In the 1975 Munster final he allowed a ball to slip from his hands into the net. It sticks in my mind because Billy Morgan gave him an earfull! I think that might have finished his intercounty football career. Funny that --- the O'Doherty clan told me he won a Junior Football AI in 1972 but made no mention of this!!
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Post by goalswingames on Oct 16, 2011 16:23:35 GMT
UCK beat Castlehaven 1-12 to 0-10. Well done to all the Kerry lads involved. Big achievement.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2011 16:25:47 GMT
Well done to UCC. I have mixed feelings about UCC playing in the Cork county championship but it is a great achievement regardless.
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hamish
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Post by hamish on Oct 16, 2011 16:26:12 GMT
Congrats to all the Kerry contingent involved with UCC on winning the Cork county final this afternoon! Well done!
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Post by sullyschoice on Oct 16, 2011 18:22:18 GMT
I thought the Castlehaven fellas were either extremely cynical especially in the first half, or they need some serious coaching in how to tackle fellas. Rugby tackles, foot trips etc. UCC then started it nearing the end to slow down the game.
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Post by veteran on Oct 16, 2011 19:14:31 GMT
I watched this game on TV and enjoyed it. UCC were superior and craftier in the first half but seemed to tire, some of them at least, in the second half as Castlehaven played with purpose and aggression in that period. Indeed as that half progressed it appeared to me that Castlehaven would win and probably would until they conceded that penalty.
It looked on TV, at least to these eyes, that the penalty was of the soft variety, as indeed were some of the frees awarded to both sides. However, there was a certain justice in the award because Paul Geaney, who won the penalty, was despicably stamped on by the Castlehaven goalie as he lay on the ground. For that reason alone I was pleased that Daithi Casey converted. That sealed the game.
Gavin O'Grady came on and scored a point and won the last free which he converted. That young man has always impressed me on the few occasions I have seen him play.
Johnny Buckley played well in the first half but, not surprisingly, he seemed to be drained for most of the second half. I was amazed that UCC did not switch him into the full forward line when he was doubtless in oxygen deficit. JB Spillane was also very prominent, especially in that first half. Having witnessed Paul Geaney get what looked like a serious ankle injury in the Dingle/East Kerry match I was surprised that he lined out when he clearly was not in ideal shape. Still, he scored a point and won the penalty and had his leg stamped on. An eventful enough afternoon for Paul.
Moans x2: 1. When UCC had the match won they executed a few rugby tackles where they had no intention of tackling properly. The tactic was designed to stop Castlehaven getting momentum and run down the clock in the process. Most teams in that situation adopt that strategy. It is ugly and cynical and should be rewarded with a straight red card. That would make players adopt a more positive approach.
2. When UCC had the match won they adopted another tactic, beloved of all teams approaching the winner's enclosure, they set about retaining possession by endlessly hand passing the ball. Surely, even the most rabid devotee of the hand pass, when they witness that spectacle, would wish to have the hand pass curtailed.
My moans x 2 are not meant to be a criticism of UCC per se, as a Kerryman I was delighted with their win, but rather an expression of abhorrence of two tactics which spoil our game.
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Post by united on Oct 16, 2011 19:42:19 GMT
UCC 1-12 Castlehaven 0-10
There was jubilation for UCC and heartbreak for Castlehaven as the final whistle blew in Páirc Uí Chaoimh today, with the College claiming their 10th Senior Football title. Daithi Casey, from Killarney side, Dr Crokes, kicked the opening point of the day to give his side an early advantage. However, that lead was short lived as Chris Hayes tied the match a minute later. The club side then went in front thanks to Alan Cahalane, before John Buckley levelled once again. Dingle's Paul Geaney gave College back the lead and left the scoreline 0-3 to 0-2. Mark Collins hit back for Castlehaven, and it soon became clear that this was going to be a tight affair. Casey hit his second score to restore the students' lead and they soon increased that even further. Mark Collins was once again the man to keep Castlehaven in the game, pulling one back for the club side.
Niall Daly increased the College lead to 0-6 to 0-4 and the students then took control, kicking the final two points of the half through Daithi Casey and Seán Kiely, to leave the halftime score reading 0-8 to 0-4.
Daithi Casey made it a five point game just after the restart but Collins replied with two for Castlehaven. Man-of-the-Match and captain Sean Kiely pointed for College to leave three in it once more. To their credit, Castlehaven fought back and led by the excellent Collins, they closed the gap and tied the game at 0-10 apiece. The turning point came on 56 minutes, when the students were awarded a penalty, which Casey fired to the back of the net.
Gavin O'Grady put over a late point and College were dominant in the dying minutes, increasing their lead to five points(1-12 to 0-10). On this display they could make it difficult for many of the more established club sides in the Munster Club Championship. They play Limerick winners Monaleen at a Cork venue on November 6th.
Scorers for UCC: Daithi Casey 1-4, Seán Kiely and Gavin O'Grady 0-2 each, Niall Daly, John Buckley, Paul Geaney, Mike Griffin 0-1 each.
Scorers for Castlehaven: Mark Collins 0-6, Chris Hayes, David Burns, Alan Cahalane, Sean Cahalane 0-1 each
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Jo90
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Post by Jo90 on Oct 16, 2011 22:41:31 GMT
It's fairly remarkable that they're able to have a presentation of the 1911 team
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