Physicality - too much focus...

[Chinatown]

My rant for the day....

After the Mayo Laois Game , there were many comments by the comentators e.g. O'Rourke that it was lacking physicality..is that the baseline now that teams must beat the lard out of each other...I accept that good physical contact makes the game i.e. good solid shoulders etc. and this was missing from this game, however I thought it was a "tasty" game of football but the view is that Dublin will "maul" either them based on Sunday's performance...I think it has taken a little gloss of the game...is this a product of the Ulster approach over the last 7 years and we now have come to accept that to win it must be very physical...Again I accept that prior to the last 7 years that games were physical and previous winners were no saints but now goading, off the ball incidents...intimidation seems to be the baseline....am I a romantic fool..?

[Timoleague]

I don't think so. In reality there was always a hard element in the game, think of Jimmy Deenihan, Paudi, Tim Kennelly(RIP), Tommy Doyle etc who were all borderline blueprints for Paul Galvin.

What has changed in all sports is that there is far less time and space available. I had the misfortune to watch the Yugoslavia Vs Wales 1976 Euro Qualifier on some satellite channel recently and what was most obvious was the fact that there was very little closing down of space by either team. What has happened is that teams are fitter and coachs have worked out ways of closing out opponents.

If you watch the tapes of the 1997 AI series, the commentators remarked in both the Cavan SF & Mayo Final on the amount of tackling/fouling by Kerry forwards out the field to deny opponents time to build attacks. The current methods have evolved, especially by Armagh and Tyrone - but we ourselves may have been the first to try it succesfully.

[kerryman]

It was a great game yesterday, don't get me wrong, but the space allowed, especially to defenders on the ball was ridiculous. If Mayo or Laois did that against Kerry you could see Marc O Se scoring 4 or 5 points from play.

[Mickmack]

The really significant thing for me this year is how bulked up the dubs are. They dont go around players now ........they go through them. For that reason they will be hard to beat

[RashersTierney]

timoleague said:

I don't think so. In reality there was always a hard element in the game, think of Jimmy Deenihan, Paudi, Tim Kennelly(RIP), Tommy Doyle etc who were all borderline blueprints for Paul Galvin.

What has changed in all sports is that there is far less time and space available. I had the misfortune to watch the Yugoslavia Vs Wales 1976 Euro Qualifier on some satellite channel recently and what was most obvious was the fact that there was very little closing down of space by either team. What has happened is that teams are fitter and coachs have worked out ways of closing out opponents.

If you watch the tapes of the 1997 AI series, the commentators remarked in both the Cavan SF & Mayo Final on the amount of tackling/fouling by Kerry forwards out the field to deny opponents time to build attacks. The current methods have evolved, especially by Armagh and Tyrone - but we ourselves may have been the first to try it succesfully.

What in the heck were you watching THAT for??!


Mickmack, gwan ourra that! Sure every team is bulked up. This is all part of the ongoing Kerry propoganda to say its now down to, "Kerry football skill against physicality". So Dublin will be "hard to beat" because they are physical?

[realist]

Rugby has become more physical too!! Dont see Ireland winning and Grand Slams or World cups though even though our players today are twice the size of our players 10 years ago. Reason??? Because class and ability will always win out eventually against brawn and muscle. Yea Yea Tyrone won an All Ireland as did Armagh. boo hoo!!! an odd all Ireland here or there. The best FOOTBALLING teams will win the majority of them.

[butchy]

The reason our rugby team isn't winning grand slams and world cups realist is that the opposition has gotten twice as big as well.

[Mickmack]

Rashers............ read my post again.............. I merely said that Dublin had bulked up significantly as against other years........... Kerry did it a few years ago................. Apart from Jayo......... Dublin as all big men........... a throw back to Heffos era.

Laois/Mayo are small by comparison and wont be able to compete. l

[tyroneperson]

realist said:

The best FOOTBALLING teams will win the majority of them.

so tyrone are gonna win the next 5 all-irelands

[RashersTierney]

Mick, with the greatest of respect, "big" can mean two things. Big, as in bulked up, which ALL Gah players are nowadays, especially if they are wearing tighter shirts (the Dublin one IS tighter, I had great difficulty getting it over my big Dub head & nelly kelly) and "big" as in "big-boned huge lanky lunk built like a brick s* house".
In these terms, the Kerry team are generally taller & bigger than the Dublin team. So are Cork. For example, in the forwards, Keaney, Mossy, Bonner, even Cossie are not very tall, Brogie is quite tall, but still rangey. Senno isnt tall, Dotsy is quite short. Rhyno isnt tall, neither is Cully, Henno, Griffo, Casey.
We dont have forwards of the size of Mugsy, Cavanagh, McDonnell, Clarke, certainly not the giant Star

[Mickmack]

Rashers...........

I will try for the last time to explain my point to you......

Remember 2003 QF game .....Dublin v Armagh. Armagh literally walked through Dublin in the second half........ too much physical power. That wouldnt happen now in 2006 given Dublins physical preparation. In other words they are now at the same physical state as Kerry, Armagh and possibly Cork.

I detect a slight touch of paranoia in you this week............

[RashersTierney]

mickmack said:

The really significant thing for me this year is how bulked up the dubs are. They dont go around players now ........they go through them. For that reason they will be hard to beat

::)Mick, I go back to your original post. That's how it reads. You did not make any point about Kerry being physically stronger than Dublin up to this year, that I noticed, so your shifting the goalposts (like Seamus Aldridge )
Let's not play silly buggers here, it's well known that Kerry see yourselves as "guardians of the flame" of pure football, and that when the likes of Dublin & the nordies have the cheek to even begin to do well, all the excuses, prejudice and begrudgery starts to appear, in this case even before we've got past the Semi!
But its ok, you go ahead and think what you want, but I'd expect much more in-depth insight/analysis into the abilities, strengths, weaknesses of a team from Kerry fans of all people, than I've seen lately about Dublin on here.

Regarding paranoia, let's see you announcing yourself and being wide open as a Kerry supporter on the reservoirdubs site and we'll see how reasonable & rational you really are..............

[KY50]

Rashers buddy of mine(neutral supporter) who was at the Laois/Dublin game said that every laois forward was hit when Padraig Clancy missed a goal chance early in the first half. I think if you look back at the video there was plenty of belting going on. That is a fact nobody is making it up. Dublin will resort to what it takes

[RashersTierney]

ky50 said:

Rashers buddy of mine(neutral supporter) who was at the Laois/Dublin game said that every laois forward was hit when Padraig Clancy missed a goal chance early in the first half. I think if you look back at the video there was plenty of belting going on. That is a fact nobody is making it up. Dublin will resort to what it takes

So will the Kerry fans my friend, getting the excuses in early in case your worst nightmare comes true

[KY50]

Rashers just stating the facts. Sounds like you are getting very defensive

[Mickmack]

Rashers............

Dublin were a soft touch in recent years.......... too light, not physically strong enough. Too nice even.

A lot of the best games in recent years involved dublin........ Dublin v Tyrone in 2005, Dublin V Meath in 2005, Dublin v Armagh in 2002 and 2003 were all great spectacles as was last years Leinster Final with Laois.

The signicant thing now is that the players from the U21 team that won the all ireland for Dublin a few years ago have developed signicantly since last year......... Keeney, Brogan, the centre half back, Quinn. Remember Quinn being put off his game by McMenamin last year.........that wouldnt happen this year. Their sheer power will blow Mayo or Laois away in the same way that Eoin Brosnan etc is literally unstoppable in full flight.


I said earlier this year that Dublin win the all ireland soon but they may have to lose one first......

Where did I denigrate Dublins football ability............. or imply that only Kerry play pure football. I am old enoght to remember seeing Tim Kennelly, Paudie O Shea, Jimmy Deenihan etc and Kerry were always able to mix it and give as good as they got.

The team with the best set of forwards wins the all ireland and dublin are up there now in the top three in this department and if they go on and win it .........fair play to them.

As regards the fans arriving late......... that really pisses me off but enough said about that already.

[KY50]

Rashers Agree with Mickmack. Dublin have the ability and will get to the Final easily enough. If you read back through the treads you will see that I predicted this very early this year. Dublin were very impressive in Killarney, drawn game against Kerry and have been the most impressive team so far this year. They have yet to concede a goal and there is some great teamwork. They play for each other, have an excellent midfield and very good forwards.

[RashersTierney]

ky50 said:

Rashers Agree with Mickmack. Dublin have the ability and will get to the Final easily enough. If you read back through the treads you will see that I predicted this very early this year. Dublin were very impressive in Killarney, drawn game against Kerry and have been the most impressive team so far this year. They have yet to concede a goal and there is some great teamwork. They play for each other, have an excellent midfield and very good forwards.

:(Ok I'll try. Mick............there's something I have to tell you; I agree with you (cough, spit, wretch). There, I've said it, now yous admit it wasnt nice to make me get ratty
I'm NOT defensive, roight! But DEFEND I will, robustly
Of course footballers have to be physical enough, but it's skills that win it. I dont like emphasis on physicality, I like to see creativity, speed, variety, and cleverness/intelligence. but a balance of hard & skillful is ideal. I think Dublin have shown that so far this year. Tyrone played the best football I'd seen in years last year, it gave me hope that we werent so far away.
The best game this year by far and away was Kerry-Armagh, both very physical and very, very skillful. It remains to be seen who can live with that mixture when the pressure is really on. Not Laois, probably not Cork this year, possibly Mayo if Moran shows he's capable of more than just whinging, and Dublin if Cosgrove or Vaughan (he will have a part to play yet) produce on the days, and if full-back holds up.
Will Cork be as physical or hungry as in the Munster replay? Kerry will defo be much better all round.
Laois have shown V Tyrone, Meath they can soak up alot of pressure and hit vital scores. Mayo have more match-winners than Laois, and are pretty big & dogged, old-style physical

As Olivia Newton John still sings in my sweetest dreams, "lets get physical, let me hear your body talk" Ooooh that video

[Mickmack]

Glad thats over rashers! For once I wasnt trying to get you going!

I remember reading an article by Eugene MCGee some years ago about the Meath team of the 80s....... Harnan, Lyons, Flynn, O Rourke etc. He said that they went out to win the physical battle in the first 30 minutes and when that was won they concentrated on winning the football battle.

Thats why the Mayo-Laois game was not really regarded as championship football............ call it intensity, physicality whatever............. no team will win it on pure football.

Dublin have both now but the problem is that they may find out what their weaknesses are in the middle of an all ireland final (as Kerry did last year) as they may not be fully tested before then.

[Mickmack]

I looked up the RESERVOIRDUBS site and found this........


Dublin Finally Wash Micko Out of Their Hair
Posted on Tuesday, June 27 @ 16:59:06 IST by MrWhite


Maynard writes "Dublin Finally Wash Micko Out of Their Hair

Generally speaking, Dublin don’t do convincing wins at Croke Park. Last summer didn’t see enough time elapse between games involving the Dubs to allow your fingernails to grow back. Meath, Wexford, Laois and Tyrone all contributed to afternoons of irregular heartbeats.



Perhaps that is why last Sunday’s emphatic fourteen-point win (crikey it even feels odd typing that!) was greeted with such unbridled euphoria. It’s not often that Dublin fans get to “enjoy” games in the truest sense of the word. But once Ray Cosgrove palmed the ball with his left hand and fisted with his right, it was joy all ‘round.

There is also a significant sub-plot to this victory, and that is the conceivable departure of Mick O’Dwyer. You could be forgiven for thinking that ever since Maurice Davin chaired the inaugural meeting of the GAA in Hayes’ Hotel, County Tipp, 1884; that it was then agreed “Micko” would be set upon the Dubs. He has come in many guises, under several flags and has broken more hearts than Don Juan. But following his historic Leinster win with Laois in 2003 his charges have failed to kick on. They now face Tyrone, defeat there could see the great man call it a day. Sean Boylan was vanquished after 82 years (or so) in charge of Meath last year as Dublin went on to lift Leinster. What odds of a repeat performance?

When the Dublin side was announced, the majority of talk surrounded the reinstatement of Jason Sherlock and Ray Cosgrove. Would the “old-guard” provide the necessary composure and experience? Well Cosgrove started brightly with the opening score, but the games’ first definitive moment occurred later in the half. Cosgrove received the ball on the Hogan Stand side before launching a ball, the angle of which could have split the sky, let alone the defence. The ball broke to Jayo, and in the blink of an eye he swivelled, fell and laid the ball inside before being swallowed up. Mossy Quinn was no slouch either, as he slung the ball low and hard into the net.

As the Gods conspired to give Laois a hard time, they then lost their most statuesque figure in Padraig Clancy. Dublin smelled blood. As the embers of the first half began to blow around Croke Park; Brogan, Quinn, Keaney and Cosgrove all scored without reply, to leave Dublin 1.09 to 0.06 up as the fire went out on the half.

It is already becoming somewhat tricky to extract the fact from the fiction and the fiction from the hype when discussing this match. Dublin fans were enraptured, Mick O’Dwyer thought his boys lay down and died and not even the Almighty knows what Pillar Caffrey really thinks. From my point of view I think that Dublin did the right things, and did them well. The back-line had creaked at times when Munnelly, McDonald and Brennan ran at them, in the second period they knuckled down a bit more and got their rewards. Between Shane Ryan, Ciaran Whelan and Kevin Bonner Dublin always had someone to break, catch or hoover the high ball. In the absence of Clancy this was more than adequate. The forwards were all lively, even if some wound up having quieter days than others. You may only whisper it, but Conal Keaney is looking like a man who could take his place in any team in the land. His form may yet prove key to Dublin’s ambitions.

So the second half delivered some hard work and some lovely scores. It was great to see Dublin scoring goals again in Croke Park And when Ray Cosgrove latched onto an inspired ball by Jayo he proceeded to leave Feargal Byron with some prime real estate in sunny No Man’s Land. To see “Cossie” collapse in front of the Hill and once again bathe in the warmth that was flowing forth was fantastic. He must have felt invincible.

Mossy Quinn’s well-taken second goal was a fitting way to bookend the day. And no doubt his contribution of 2.01 from play will silence his detractors between now and the final.

There are undoubtedly many stiff challenges ahead for this Dublin side. Their performance was very good, solid with frequent spells of real totalitarian dominance. But as with all sport, you won’t always have it your own way. Dublin will have to be as analytical and precise in the wake of this game as they have been up to now if they aim to lift Leinster for the second year in a row. If they can manage that, then they go into the business end of the Championship with absolutely nothing or no one to fear.
"

[RashersTierney]

Yeah a good piece that I think. There's not much more anyone can say, they have sort of sleep-walked since that match, as they havent met a team that can go the distance, in one way or another. In fact, Westmeath never even raised a challenge.
In contrast Mayo & Laois have had loads of tests and will be honed to a fine point. I think both of these teams will really test us, and the Micko factor hangs on like a fierce grandad we have to visit every year, or a ghost that wont stop haunting us!

The only thing I really fear about the semi is Mayo's potential to go on fire when the mood takes them. They have potential, I really think they still do, and at least as much incentive as any team left in it, more than most. They have been derided & humiliated so many times, and ever since Parnell Park in March, they have been waiting for a chance of retribution. We have to first of all be fully aware of this, and be fully awake after the past few weeks.
It reminds me a bit of Donegal in 92......Dont forget that the Mayo U-21 success broke a very long losing streak in finals at all levels for Mayo teams. For Kerry's sake, you better hope Laois beat them!
As for Dublin's weaknesses, they are still waiting for the acid test. If not in the Semi, this would certainly be Kerry, not just for footballing and reasons of experience & bottle etc, but for historical reasons too of course. I've said all along about the whole "physical" thing, no team can afford to openly focus over-much on this, as it just sets them up to be put in their place, it's added incentive to opponents. I hope Dublin havent made this mistake, or the hype doesnt make it for us!
Football is what will make the difference, if hunger, fitness, bravery, strength are about equal. And maybe JOC's greater experience.........I hope all the talk of the physical side will stop after the final, that the Semis & especially the final will not give the begrudgers any opportunity to belittle the teams. A good balance of hard & skill, long & short, no diving, no feigning, no barracking, no late stuff, no off-the-ball; we demand it!