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Post by austinstacksabu on Oct 5, 2005 12:07:24 GMT
Pre-read note: It seems that my comments about government grants etc in the North brought about a bit of debate, which can only be a good thing. The aim of this post is to take that discussion into its own thread, to give it the full treatment I believe it deserves. Also, it depresses me to have to keep clicking on a thread titled “All Ireland Football Final 2005: Kerry v Tyrone. What I state here is part fact, part repeating reports from media sources, part stories coming in from around the county. Take from it what you wish; it serves only to spark a debate.
The dust has settled, Sam Maguire is sitting over the fire place in the Clan na nGael clubhouse in north Tyrone and the bauble giving season is about to begin. Tyrone are All Ireland football champions for the second time in three years having beaten Kerry convincingly in the final.
Team tactics played a part on both teams parts, have no doubt about it. But Tyrone were the better team and deserved to win.
Where this poster is concerned though, there is a far deeper rooted issue which needs to be analysed and thought about as the turkey grows fat and the sun sets early.
It has been said that Kerry have a great tradition, that we have players coming through at all times, that this tradition will always carry us to All Irelands. This may be true, but it will never carry us to as many All Irelands as we expect, as we demand, as we know we can win. For the foreseeable future, if all things were to remain static, Kerry would win an All Ireland every few years, but far more importantly, would continue to play catch up with the trend setting teams of Northern Ireland. It may only be a phase, but underneath the sheen of senior football other factors seem to suggest otherwise.
Where is he going you may ask? Well, when I joined the forum in 2004, one of the first posts I made was about the youth development structure in Kerry and other southern counties. For example, at the current time, Tralee CBS, ‘The Green’ has one of it’s most exciting set of players coming through. Last year at Frewn Cup level (U16 ½), they went unbeaten for the year. Big things are expect in two years time for the Corn Ui Mhuiri (minor). But when I asked a teacher in the school what weights programmes, conditioning programmes etc they currently undertake, he replied, none of a set nature with the odd player doing his own thing. Most of the guys using weights are the rugby players, and students who are interested in just bulking up for the ladies.
According to Joe Brolly on the day of the All Ireland, seven of the eight teams in the Ulster senior schools quarter finals were from Tyrone, and we know how strong the Northern schools have always been. In the North, the British government provides educational sports grants for schools to employ full time sports officers. The majority of schools use this money to employ teachers with a very strong GAA background. These guys are so good that they are now being employed by county boards around Ulster as managers, trainers etc. They teach the kids how to play football, but they also teach them how to begin weights programmes set for younger people who’re developing, and how to eat properly, train properly etc, the basics of conditioning.
Each year the best players are chosen for youth development programmes, right from U14 up. Dermot, I’m open to clarification here but this is what I’ve been told from a club man up there. At this years Feile na nOg, apparently they were far more developed than any team from down south. What this means is that instead of waiting for Charlie Neligan to lock up the bakery and head out to have a look at the odd minor game, the best young players are being identified at all stages, with schools and clubs all feeding in. By having the best of the best, and those who’ve shown improvement from one year to the next coming together, you’re able to work on skills with them, and further physical development. You’re also able to get them to play a brand of football which is similar to the next level up. This happens all the way up to the senior team. If a guy comes in, he doesn’t have to hit the gym for a year (aka Kieran Donaghy in Kerry), if he’s dedicated enough, he’ll have been doing that work through his club and school.
The big difference between Kerry and Tyrone is that we needed a plan B on September 25th, which we didn’t have. Tyrone didn’t have a plan A or a plan B. They have a system of playing a game, that all players know, that they believe in, and because they’ve been playing it since these structures were put in place in the early nineties, it’s almost impossible to break down because they’re so used to it and have it down to perfection.
So, the point is made that Cavan, Dublin and Armagh drew with them and that Wexford beat them in the league. That’s all well and good, but every team goes through rough periods before coming out as winners. Ask Man Utd about their 1999 treble winning season. Ask the greatest football team of the lot, Kerry 1975-1988. However, Tyrone didn’t lose. They were beaten by Mayo in 2004, but there were multiple other factors involved in that.
The point I’m making is that Tyrone are now consistently producing squads who all play a similar type of football, who can produce other kinds if they want because they are led by coaches etc who work closely together. They are doing all the ground work from a young age, and when they are fully matured, they’re fine footballers who are well rounded physically.
In Kerry, if you get beyond minor, then you begin to worry about proper conditioning, about fitness for senior level, about adapting your style of play to suit the senior team. That’s if you’re identified in the first place.
Every time we produce a new Darren O’Sullivan for example, you’re almost starting from scratch in many ways with them, which takes away from time spent training with the ball in hand – a key element to success for any team.
The Club Tyrone structure is another example of hard work paying off. In Armagh it’s called Morgan Fuels (Huey Morgan pays the bills and no admin, don’t pull this comment as it’s well known what he’s put into the pot). They raise £250,000 stg which goes towards the needs of the senior, u21 and minor football and hurling squads. The argument has been made elsewhere here that Kerry have everything they need etc, that Jack gets whatever he wants. True, but the county board pays that out of their bank account. Could you imagine if they had €250,000 extra to play around with. They could cover a third of the overall costs of all inter county teams for the year with Club Kerry monies and then have an extra quarter of a million to put into employing extra coaches, building development centres (gyms, conditioning and recovery centres) in say ten clubs throughout Kerry. Tyrone are at this a few years, so imagine in six years time what we could have in Kerry.
No county in the 26 of Southern Ireland have as developed a structure as this. We’re behind the times. What do these structures ad? Simple, support to find, nurture and develop top class footballers who are bred to be winners. Now, tradition plays its part. Any child who grows up hearing about how men of the county won All Irelands is inspired to go out and play, to be winners, to follow on from the past generations. We’ve always had this in Kerry. Tyrone now have multiple All Ireland winners to inspire the next generation, to set the trend for the future. Tyrone may not win next years All Ireland, but they will be there or thereabouts from now on, just as we were but where we set the trend once, we now need to set it again, to be the leaders.
To paraphrase Al Pachino in ‘Any given Sunday’, winning is about gaining an extra inch from your opponents. Tyrone afford their squads the opportunity to gain that extra inch that keeps them in the game, get the draws, squeeze out wins, believe in themselves. We do, but only at senior level. We’re already playing catch up at youth level, and instead of getting our young players to play catch up when they reach 18, why not have them developing as they go along, give them the chance to gain those inches. We have one asset, natural footballers, but that doesn’t win us as many games as it used to. Now we need to work on other aspects to become the trend setters again.
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Post by Kerry39 on Oct 5, 2005 12:23:09 GMT
The Kerry example of "Club Tyrone" is the ticket scheme. 2000+ members, each paying 350 = 700K.
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Post by austinstacksabu on Oct 5, 2005 12:27:38 GMT
Which was used for many years to pay off the Fitzgerald stadium loan.
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Post by lostinmayo on Oct 5, 2005 12:52:02 GMT
Stacks, I dunno where the hell you get your information from, but I agree with most of what you say, not so sure about the systems, Tyrone are no Ajax. For those people saying we have tradition in Kerry and the county board are doing a great job and we always produce good footabllers and the structure is fine and we should be the envy of everyone else, this is exactly the attitude that will leave us behind the possy and playing catch up. You always need to look at what you have and how you can improve things and learn from other successful people, this is common sense. So lose the backward notion that you can't beat tradition, the northern teams have the upper hand on us at the moment, there's no denying that and as Stacks put it, they have the extra inch and even though we're not far off the mark, we're still playing catch up.
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Post by Kerry39 on Oct 5, 2005 17:40:27 GMT
Which was used for many years to pay off the Fitzgerald stadium loan. yes, but the latest one (which started 2/3 years ago) is being used for the new training facilities in Killarney.
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BIGMAC
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not dead only sleeping
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Post by BIGMAC on Oct 5, 2005 20:00:49 GMT
i'm not going into all the money stuff stacks but surfice to say my youngest (6) and in the local bunscoil is just about to start on his gaa career but the school has allready arranged for a sports gaa coach to train these youngsters at a cost of £10/€15 for 10 sessions.it seems to me that they are trying to instill skills into the kids at a very early age and i'm not sure i'm comfortable with it. as for the minors and u21s had an intresting chat today with someone in the know as to why these players were'nt coming through into the senior panel and was told that they are being nurtured for the future
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 5, 2005 21:00:49 GMT
Stacks........... are there no developments squads in Kerry.
Dublin started them a few years ago and laois did about 10 year ago.
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Post by paddyb on Oct 5, 2005 23:03:16 GMT
Its been widely reported in the press in the last week or so that Brian Dooher quit his job last April (working 70 hours a week as a Vet). Inference being that it was so he could focus on his football. Noticed a few of the Armagh boys have done something similar over the years.
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seamus
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Post by seamus on Oct 6, 2005 7:38:51 GMT
Its not long ago when we had fellas like Flaherty and Breen who were working flat out and training hard as well. Flaherty said in an interview a couple of years ago that he did'nt beleive in all this chicken and pasta stuff and that if you were training hard you needed a good steak and spuds with plenty gravy! Things have moved really fast in the last 5 years and that is totally down to the preparation of northern teams. Armagh were the first to have a scientific training camp - la manga Less is more training - tyrone full time gaa jobs - started by armagh but now common place - O'Hara - sligo etc Weights training through the season Increased tactical awareness (blanket defence etc)
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Post by austinstacksabu on Oct 6, 2005 8:36:12 GMT
I'm not aware from having talked to people Kerry34 of such structured development structures in Kerry. It certainly doesn't exist in the schools system. We have development squads to an extent, but nothing like they have in the North, where the trend is being set.
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Post by Hoffster on Oct 6, 2005 10:50:37 GMT
Development squads are the way to go.In Dublin they have squads from U12 upwards.They train once a week at the younger ages. They are trained by Coaching Directors from the Leinster council (one being a Tyrone man). They get all the gear and it gives the youth something to be proud of.Along the way they will lose players who don't develop the potential seen at young age. However, those who manage to reach minor age have had 6 years of development.
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Post by kerrygold on Oct 6, 2005 10:51:50 GMT
I definetly feel our underage teams are not performing to to their maximum potential.I was amazed at the way the kerry backs in the munster minor final this year in cork were standing of there men and not chalenging for the ball,they looked totally under coached.How many times have our minors accompanied our seinors to croker in the last 7 or 8 years,it must be at least 5 or 6 times,and the results,they have come home every year losing in the semi final and final last year.Dermot made a telling statement on a post yesterday when he said,these tyrone players have never lost a final,they have won 5 or 6 now,i must persume 3 or 4 of these are at under level,ie minor and u21.contrast that to our own teams,the minors have come up short several times in croker and theres no way waterford should beat our u21 in the munster championship.Our seinors have lost 2 finals in the same period.Winning teams breed success.A strong underage set up in kerry should be more competitive that it has been since the minors and u21 won there last titles.We suffered a famine between 86 and 97 because we had nothing coming through at underage level and it could happen again.The 3 u21s and minor win in 75 back bone the golden years and our very strong minors and u 21s in the early to mid 90s backboned this present team.We have one great advantage in kerry apart from our tradition and that is our football nursuries,eg.the sem in kilarney,the green in tralee,the schools in kilorglin and dingle and now the arival of the college in caherciveen with 3 recent munster victories.Surely it should be possible to develope more advanced coaching camps around this allready established excelent nursuries with more specialised coachs brought in, in area like weighs, tactics,backs and forwards coaches,dieticians ect, ect.Kerry also have one other tradition and that is its supply of students to the teacher training colleges.It woundnt be rocket science to get these people with a strong interest in gaelic games and armed with new coaching skills into these nursuries and just as importantly the feeder primary schools.We already have people in these schools like joc in caherciveen,m fitz is also a quailifed teacher living in caherciveen,john o keefe and marc o se in the green,sean kelly in the sem,paul galvin,e fitz,the two hassets,tomas se,mfr are all teachers.There imput could be huge and im sure it is.This is were club kerry could come into play,if funds created from this were solely used for coaching of underage teams,ie in the form of providing state of the art equipment and for paying coaches to go into these nursuries and also to pay existing teaching staff for the extra curicular coaching work.The cream from these schools could then be brought into the proposed new facilities in fossa to form a school of excellence.We have the schools,the staff,the players and most importantly the tradition to be producing hugely competitive minors,u21s and juniors year in year out.Club kerry might work along the grounds for example of,say you get 500 people who love their kerry teams to contribute 500 euro each per year = 250,000 euros,1000 people = 500,000 euros ect,ect,ect.Theres 150,000 people living in kerry,many more thousands living in the greater dublin area and dublin,not to mention england and america.That kind of extra money would transform the underage structure in kerry and free up other funds for the senior team.It wouldnt be rocket science either to make it work.500 euro is 12 monthly standing orders of 40 euro.
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dec
Senior Member
Ciarrai Abu
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Post by dec on Oct 6, 2005 12:05:18 GMT
the school has allready arranged for a sports gaa coach to train these youngsters at a cost of ?0/€15 for 10 sessions.it seems to me that they are trying to instill skills into the kids at a very early age and i'm not sure i'm comfortable with it.
The only way to go is this i believe.
The younger the kids are when they start practicing the basic skills the better. The most important thing is that kids practice with both left and right sides.. and begin to start getting an appetite for the game by achieving success (with skills, competitions, etc...)
Many of the Gaeltacht players attribute their success to Liam O Rochain who nurtured Cinneide, the O Ses, McGearalts etc from when they were like 10 to 16/17..
The teams were successful and that brought huge confidence to these players. Starting and practicing the skills as early as possible is the best way to go..
Continued development and maintained interest is next. Our underage structure is poor at best compared to the Northern teams in particular..
Development squads should be established for players who fit into a certain category from when kids are 13/14. Factors like skills, talent but especially willingness and real commitment/interest should be considered when selecting such development squads. These kids could be coached by full time professionals.... shouldn't have to be former greats but better off people who have qualifications in sports science or a sound background in GAA. The development squad should last for a few years until the kids reach minor level..
There is always a big drop off from minor level to seniors so trying to rectify that would be difficult. I think its all about success achieved, confidence attained and future ambition maintained... Many players will fall by the way side..lose interest, etc.. unless their interest and ambition is maintained..
The idea of the development squds should be that by the time kids reach Minor level their skills, strength etc will be high and interest and ambition in tact so they can then apply themselves more instead of less after Minor level..
A further development squad would be required after Minor level to assist in bridging the gap between Minor and Senior.. There could be more emphasis on strength and conditioning here rather than the actual skill development..
This develpment squad can play challenge games against intercounty teams, Siggerson etc... A bit like the Underdogs notion. A group of players developed and working together to give them the best opportunity to make it at inter county level..
Maybe just in fantasy world we could see these kind of measures introduced. Money and lots of it coming from whichever sources is required.....
With teams having initiatives like Club Tyrone and superior underage structures in place its time to start thinking about how best to better that..
We wont beat the opposition by copying them but rather going one step better....
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Boris
Full Member
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Post by Boris on Oct 6, 2005 15:18:46 GMT
I think taking kids in at 6 years old is going too far.Football is only a game after all.At least wait until young lads are full under 12s before getting them into anyway serious training. I dont see an endless stream of Tyrone under age teams providing countless numbers of class footballers in Tyrone that some people see.They had a boom period in the nineties.Outside of last year their recent record isnt great.Kerry minors beat them easily a couple of years ago in a quarter final.Armagh and Down are ahead of them in Ulster at the moment and Derry won an all ireland in 2002. Kerry minors lack of success in over ten years is a worry.They have been unlucky on a number of occassions but i feel we need a win sooner rather than later to break the duck
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miko
On Probation
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Post by miko on Oct 6, 2005 20:01:33 GMT
Cuchulainn ''Outside of last year their recent record isnt great.Kerry minors beat them easily a couple of years ago in a quarter final.Armagh and Down are ahead of them in Ulster at the moment and Derry won an all ireland in 2002.''
Just For the record Tyrone's recent success at youth level is :
U21 All Irelands 2000,2001, Ulster 2002 and beaten AI Finalists 2003 Minor All Irelands 2001, 2004 and Ulster 2003
I think if you compare this with Armagh/Down and Derry you will find they have AI Titles at minor (Derry and Down) and U21's Armagh and Beaten Finalists (Down) over the same period.
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falveyb2k
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"The way this man played today, if there was a flood he'd walk on water. Jack O Shea"
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Post by falveyb2k on Oct 6, 2005 21:13:41 GMT
I think we're not giving ourselves due credit. A lot of our structures at under age are very good and to say our preparation is less than the big 2 is unfair on the lads. Somebody said earlier that Armagh were the first to go to a training camp abroad but that wasn't the truth. Kerry went to the Canaries in 97 and 2000 and in both years they went on to win Sam. Look at the record of our seniors. They have won 3 All Irelands, 8 Munster championships, 2 Div. 1 national leagues, a division 2 title, been All Ireland runners up twice by one kick of a ball and been All Ireland semi finalists every year since 96 bar 99. Ask yourself could we have done this without good preparation or young players coming through? I think not. Sure Ulster teams have raised the bar but so have we. When Tyrone and Armagh won their first All Irelands we came back last year and swept the board playing fabulous football and forcing Tyrone to play even better to win this year. We're not a million miles away like Mick O Dwyer said the day after the All Ireland. It's been said in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 90s and even just 2 years ago but it's just an over reaction. We've never been too far away and we'll continue to challenge over the next few years, keep the faith!
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Post by kerrygold on Oct 6, 2005 22:00:36 GMT
Well said falveyb2k,totally agree with you,some record in the last 10 years,its some haul of titles and serious consistany.I personally think on last years form we would have beaten either of the northern teams in the final if we had meet them.I also think that peter canavan was the differnce between the two teams this year.Were not far behind them at all and i wouldnt put it past that group of players to add significantly to that list of honours next year.
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BIGMAC
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Post by BIGMAC on Oct 6, 2005 22:07:57 GMT
I think taking kids in at 6 years old is going too far.Football is only a game after all.At least wait until young lads are full under 12s before getting them into anyway serious training i agree with you here,i think at 6 they should be playin for fun with no pressure to win theres plenty of time to instill skills when their older (u10s maybe).learn them the basics and leave them to it for a few years anyway
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Post by kerrygold on Oct 6, 2005 22:34:40 GMT
Agree there bigmac.I happened to see a group of 6 and 7 year olds been coached one day in a gym indoors by a very dedicated teacher in a school.it was the one of the most amazing things ive ever seen.you had all these little guys going through there routines of picking the ball up with both feet,kicking and passing with both feet,soloing the ball with both feet ect.they were using soft indoor soccer balls.there was no aggression involved,no will to win involved and no shouting and ranting involved just happy little campers really enjoying themselves.I dont think you have anything to be worried about.
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BIGMAC
Fanatical Member
not dead only sleeping
Posts: 1,247
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Post by BIGMAC on Oct 7, 2005 8:35:50 GMT
Agree there bigmac.I happened to see a group of 6 and 7 year olds been coached one day in a gym indoors by a very dedicated teacher in a school.it was the one of the most amazing things ive ever seen.you had all these little guys going through there routines of picking the ball up with both feet,kicking and passing with both feet,soloing the ball with both feet ect.they were using soft indoor soccer balls.there was no aggression involved,no will to win involved and no shouting and ranting involved just happy little campers really enjoying themselves.I dont think you have anything to be worried about. at that age thats got to be what the games all about
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Post by austinstacksabu on Oct 7, 2005 8:53:46 GMT
Everything you say is true Falvey, but what I suppose I'm digging at is that where once we dominated, set the bar, others are doing that now. I don't honestly believe we will ever win as many All Irelands as our talents would allow unless we innovate further. Absolutely Micko was right, we have come back from supposed doomsday scenarios before against Down etc, I even posted the quote from the 1970 All Ireland football final programme the day before this years All Ireland to put it all into perspective.
But where once talent alone guaranteed Kerry multiple All Irelands, that is no longer the case. Sports science has put paid to that. We have to embrace it and innovate, be the leaders.
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seamus
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Post by seamus on Oct 7, 2005 9:07:19 GMT
We had a development squad some years ago under the guidance of Mickey Ned and Johnno and it was a complete disaster.They had players like Mike Finn, John O'Connor,Ronan O'Connor, DJ Fleming, Gareth Walsh. Mike Quirke and many more who were the cream of the crop of the time with potential. They only met a handful of times and the main reason was the lack of cooperation from clubs. A percentage of the clubs always had games at the times they got together which was during the summer. The best way to take it forward would be to run a winter camp from November to March, meeting every couple of weeks, paying expenses for college students etc. Advice on diet, tactics, working on basic skills and fitness would all be part of it.Perhaps you could run 2 camps, 1 for 14-16yrs and one for 18-20. I believe the gap for players once they leave minor can be too big. Players from small clubs who make the minors often then have to go back to playing div 4 or 5 football and they then loose fitness, skills, awareness etc and then fail to make the u-21s. At least when were minor most of them had schools football and were doing the same training as kids from Crokes, Stacks etc who then progress to the club senior team which operates at a high level. You would have to be exceptional to still make the u-21's if you come from a small club and have 2-3 years of playing only sh*t football. You could be here all day listing top quality players who made the minors but did not make the transition to u21. This is where the development squad would help.
Players from the like of Renard and Tuosist, the lads from Glenbeigh (apart from Darren hopefully) brendans clubs and some of the north kerry clubs find the jump too big to make once they leave the proper training of schools teams.
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Post by kerryman on Oct 12, 2005 10:39:44 GMT
Players from the like of Renard and Tuosist, the lads from Glenbeigh (apart from Darren hopefully) brendans clubs and some of the north kerry clubs find the jump too big to make once they leave the proper training of schools teams. Taking Renard as an example, John Sugrue was outstanding in last years county championship but would not get a sniff at intercounty - I wonder if he had jumped ship to the Marys how he would have done. On the other hand Killian Young is playing well for Kerry minors..
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Post by buck02 on Oct 12, 2005 11:24:05 GMT
On the issue of schools, apart from the Sem, Colaiste Sceilge, the Green, Dingle CBS and ISK (I'm surely forgetting someone) the other schools seem to perform pitifully. Whats the story with the likes of Mounthawk, Tarbert, Listowel and Milltown - is there any time & effort put into producing teams in these schools.
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jay
On Probation
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Post by jay on Oct 13, 2005 16:26:22 GMT
Take a look at this: www.sini.co.uk/gaelic/coachingarticles.htmThis will tell you how far we are behind. ‘Austinstacksabu’ I have to agree with you on some great points. The structure in Kerry is not good enough anymore. They are so far ahead now in the North. They have development squads at U14/U15/U17/U19. Some of the stuff in these articles is frightening as it shows how professional they have become. When you think that Tyrone are picking out 120 14-15 year olds every year and showing them what they need to do to make it to the minor set up then that just shows how far ahead of the game they are up there. In Kerry there is a lack of coaching and advice to young players. Yes there are development squads, but the quality of advice and coaching is not at a sufficiently high level as it is up there. It has all been said on this thread already, players need physical conditioning, psychological advice, lifestyle advice, individual analysis of their game. The bad habits have to be cut out at 12-14 years of age. This is the attitude in the North. If we don’t do this we wont be winning any more All-Irelands. Take a look at the coaching in your club. Who is over the U12/U14/U16. What are their training methods? Are they giving advice on lifestyle, physical conditioning? How often are qualified coaches coming in to the club to access the young players? How often are qualified coaches coming into schools? We need qualified coaches, training manuals, manuals on nutrition, weights programmes. We need these distributed to every coach in every club in the County. The standards are being set up North. Read the articles and tell me you’re not worried. The Kerry Senior team have Pat Flanagan, the Crokes have Pat O’Shea, and outside of those two it is hard to identify quality coaches within the County. Take an U14 footballer with great potential. Put him into the underage structures in Kerry and Tyrone. Where do you think he will prosper and fulfil his potential? Its time for the Kerry County Board to start planning. We are falling behind with every passing day.
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Post by Admin on Jan 19, 2006 19:31:11 GMT
[Moved Post....]
"Club Tyrone" model for Kerry Post by Mickmack on 19/Jan at 19:02
Anyone hear that Kerry are looking at the set up in relation to "Club Tyrone" in order to putting something similar in place. Club Tyrone raises funds for the development of the GAA at all levels and several wealthy business people back it.
Immitation is the best form of flattery......Oscar Wilde
Re: "Club Tyrone" model for Kerry Post by BIGMAC on Today at 19:31
immitation or not surely this makes sence,it aint done the tyrone lads any harm
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Post by Admin on Mar 27, 2006 20:41:26 GMT
Re: Article in Tomorrows Examiner... Post by ciarrai33 on 14 Dec, 2005, 10:29
14/12/05 A minor problem?
Is Kerry’s failure to win an All-Ireland minor football title in 12 years a sign that the Kingdom’s crown is slipping, asks Tony Leen.
THE former Clare coach John Kennedy must have thought he was finished with hopeless causes when he returned to the Kingdom to take charge of next year’s minor footballers.
Not so. In the eyes of many observers, the former All-Ireland winner will start 2006 facing into an uphill struggle every bit as steep as his problems in the Banner.
It’s 12 seasons since Kerry won a minor All-Ireland football title, and seven since they won an Under-21. Respected figures in the county dispute the relevance of those statistics, but as the Ulster counties gobble up football titles in all grades, the realisation is slowly dawning on the home of Gaelic football that things aren’t as they used to be.
Talent, however rich, is no longer enough.
Nobody’s afraid of green and gold jerseys anymore; the fabled Kingdom conveyor belt of talent has slowed to a trickle.
And worryingly, the underage structure in Kerry - such as it is - has been exposed as frayed, haphazard and unhealthily reliant on raw talent, instead of meticulous preparation.
“We’ve taken the foot off the pedal at coaching level, that’s evident in the number of minors coming through to the seniors,” Kennedy admits. “We have slipped behind the Ulster counties.”
Arrogance is a word seldom employed with respect to Kerry football, but a county that satisfies itself with occasional throughput to the senior ranks is surely asking for trouble.
Jack O’Connor might agree. The Kerry coach will have to plot next year’s All-Ireland assault with virtually the same squad that came up short to Tyrone last September.
Given that Bryan Sheehan had already broken through, only Darren O’Sullivan can realistically be expected to shake up the 2006 starting team. Little wonder Kerry selectors have been ringing around the county in search of hidden gems. They’ve even taken the unprecedented step of drafting in a gaggle of this year’s minors for pre-season training in a bid to reshape, and shake up, the future for Kerry football.
The likelihood, however, is it will take another five years at least - presuming Kerry puts it house in order immediately - before it can reasonably expect to be winning All-Ireland minor titles.
“Once we’re in Croke Park, and there’s one or two fellas showing senior potential, some people are happy,” said one well-placed coach.
“As ever, there’s only one team that matters in Kerry.”
Micheál Ó Muirceartaigh, notwithstanding his penchant for hyperbole, labelled it one of the best games he had seen.
On the day they buried Diana, Princess of Wales, in 1997, the minors of Kerry and Tyrone were enthralling Parnell Park in a replayed All-Ireland semi-final.
Whereas the Kingdom had tradition on their side, Tyrone had planning and the memory of fallen colleague Paul McGirr to drive them to victory.
“I’m not exaggerating by describing it as a critical moment in the history of Tyrone football,” says Fr Gerard McAleer, who was co-manager with Mickey Harte that day.
“By winning that game, we sent a strong message to Kerry and the rest of the country that we had arrived, we were now up there with the best of them.”
That Tyrone squad contained a number of players who would be nurtured and developed into All-Ireland winning heroes; Cormac McAnallen, Stephen O’Neill, Kevin Hughes, Enda McGinley, Michael McGee, Ciaran Gourley, Paschal McConnell and Mark Harte, Mickey’s son. Their potential was noted and nourished.
They lost that year’s final to Laois, but won the following year.
That wasn’t enough.
The Laois defeat rankled - “we were determined to right that wrong, and that side was minded though to the Under-21s of 2000, when we won the All-Ireland,” says Fr McAleer.
The former St Pat’s Dungannon principal says he kept a lazy weather eye on that 1997 Kerry minor team, but couldn’t tell how many of them had progressed to a reunion with Tyrone last September.
He might be surprised to learn it was one - Paul Galvin.
At some point since that defeat, someone got concerned at the dearth of young talent in Kerry, concerned enough to establish development squads to root out and work with promising players.
No one’s quite sure how many times they met or what progress was made - rarely and little is the general consensus - but by the time Seamus Moynihan led Kerry to an All-Ireland title in 2000, it was felt the football order has been restored, and they had served their purpose.
What actually happened was a golden period for the Under-21s in Kerry, winning All-Irelands in 1995, ’96 and ’98.
The problem today is most of those players are approaching 30 and they have been milked dry.
“We’ve got complacent in Kerry,” says one senior player who preferred not to be identified.
“There isn’t an endless supply of talent, despite what some people think. Tradition won’t do it anymore, we have to make it happen. There was a big coaching conference up in Tullamore this year with 500 people in attendance. We should be doing that in Kerry.”
How crucial is minor success to the fortunes of Kerry football?
“Colm Cooper would be regarded as one of the top footballers in the country, and he never won an All-Ireland with Kerry,” points out Pat O’Shea, who coached the Kingdom’s minors to All-Ireland semi-finals in 2001 and 2002.
“I don’t think minor success is critical in terms of a player’s development. To use an analogy, how many times have Brazil won the World Youth Cup?”
O’Shea accepts alarm bells have been ringing in Kerry over the relative lack of minor success, but argues what has worked for Laois and Tyrone isn’t necessarily the best medicine for the Kingdom.
“If you start cherry-picking the best 30 players in the county at Under-14, you have two immediate problems,” he says.
“Firstly, you stand accused of being elitist; if a young lad isn’t good enough at 14, does that say he’ll never be good enough? Under that system, your player pool is gong to dwindle very quickly.
“Secondly, you have the burnout issue - if you are going to be putting teenagers on weight, diet and psychology programmes, are they going to be any good to the county in their mid-20s?”
Last August, the Kerry minors came up short again.
Beaten by Cork in Munster, they had enough natural talent to defeat Leinster champions Laois in the quarter-final.
However, they came a cropper in the semi-final against a Mayo side they should have defeated.
“There have been good minor teams for the last couple of years, but the approach needs to improve,” says Sean Geaney of Dingle, who stepped down as minor coach last month after three seasons in charge.
“The northern counties are setting the standard now, because they are preparing the groundwork two or three years in advance.
“I had very good players at my disposal this year, but in terms of weight training development and professional attitude, we are well behind the northern counties.
“It was generally known last year (2004) Tyrone were the minor team to beat; and at the beginning of this season, it was widely expected that Down would be there or thereabouts.
“They will pretty much know their minor teams in advance because they have proper development programmes in place.
“Here, you go out, get 50 players at the start of the season, train them and put a team together. The thinking that they grow on the trees is still there in Kerry. There are still players coming through, but not as many as before.
“This year we could have done with a few more defenders; last year another midfielder would have helped.”
It would seem logical for the minor coach to continue into the Under-21 role, but as Geaney steps away (by his own choice), John O’Dwyer has been appointed Kerry’s new Under-21 coach, replacing Charlie Nelligan.
Despite his surname, O’Dwyer is about to find out the attitude towards Under-21 football is ambivalent at best.
Kerry’s last All-Ireland-winning U-21 captain, Listowel’s Brian Scanlon, thinks the grade is overlooked in the Kingdom.
“We have that priority for senior success, which means we are pushing players just out of minor on to the senior squad a little too soon. That is not a bad thing but what is a concern is a lot of really talented fellows are not being aggressively encouraged to play at U-21 level and that is a huge disadvantage for fellows who would benefit from playing alongside those kind of players.”
THE COUNTY’S GAA secretary, Eamon O’Sullivan, admits the development squad idea might have been “half-hearted” but disputes the consequent presumption that it is the root cause of Kerry’s underage failures.
“There were reasons,” he says.
“Some of the players advanced to other things, perhaps there was a problem between the Under-21 and seniors. Also the increase in (senior) panels from 24 to 30 took some players who might have been earmarked for development squads.”
O’Sullivan says Kerry has bought into the national coaching and development programme, whereby Jack O’Connor and physical trainer Pat Flanagan work with teenage talent and instruct them on issues such as diet and weight programmes.
However, the secretary, like Pat O’Shea, also believes it’s important to find a balance.
“The talented ones are in danger of being burnt out. Coaching and preparation is more important nowadays. One of the worries is colleges football, and we have four ‘senior’ football colleges in the county.
“Those lads - plus the ones in third level - are doing serious football work in the winter and spring, and we are then looking for their best in August.”
He says he would “definitely dispute” the argument that the trail of football talent is tapering off in Kerry, pointing out that the county has contested five of the last nine All-Ireland senior finals.
“We are worried,” O’Sullivan admits.
“The issue does get raised at county board level, though I’d be more concerned with minor than Under-21. I believe the Under-21 Championship is a short fast sprint with no benefit whatsoever - if you had an Under-21 championship without minors or senior panellists, then you have a value in it.”
There are few keener students of the game in Kerry than Eoin Liston, many people’s tip to replace Jack O’Connor as Kerry coach in 2007.
He also believes there is talent coming through, but that the county has been lax in moulding it.
“The whole thing needs to be geared towards earlier intervention. The young fellows should be on weights earlier. The beauty of football in Kerry is there is so much of it, and there will always be talented footballers. That’s why it’s so important to work with them when they are young. It’s very easy identify the young lads capable of coming through. I remember being at an Under-16 game with the late John Dowling (of Kerins O’Rahillys), and spotting Darragh Ó Se and Dara Ó Cinnéide. With better structures, Ó Sé would have come through earlier than he did.
“There are fellas like (midfielder) Kieran Donaghy who we shouldn’t give up on - but imagine if he had three or four years’ proper preparation and training behind him. The nursery will always be there in Kerry, but getting a hold of them young means we can work on their weaknesses earlier.”
Liston vigorously challenges the outdated view that raw talent will suffice for Kerry.
“There’s scope for a tactics think-tank in the county. We’ve got to match and improve on the attention to detail that Tyrone and Armagh put into it. Their analysis, statistics and feedback system means that unless you understand it, you can’t counter it. They have a playing system where everyone knows what everyone else is doing.”
The son of Liston’s former Beale and Kerry colleague, Ogie Moran, was a Kerry minor midfielder of genuine promise two seasons ago, but has branched out into rugby with Shannon and the Munster underage set-up.
Liston believes this is the exception to the rule. The irony isn’t lost either when he mentions the promising offspring of another Kerry great, Sean Walsh - Tommy and Barry John already have tongues wagging in the Kingdom, though English football clubs are already interested in the latter.
One thing O’Dwyer’s Kerry marvels had was an extraordinary cocktail of talents. Kennedy is better placed than most to compare and contrast with present demands.
“Perhaps we are sometimes looking for too many pure footballers,” he muses.
“Maybe you need more physique, more speed. You need guys who will work, foragers if you like - 15 pure footballers won’t win an All-Ireland for you.”
IT’S A fair point. The indications are there are plenty of talented attackers in the pipeline in Kerry, but no one seems to be able to identify a potential midfielder for the future. Given Kerry’s existing problems in this area, that’s a serious issue.
Kennedy believes the penny is finally dropping in Kerry, that the county needs minor and U-21 title success to service the future.
“When you are successful, you think things will happen automatically; but I saw in my time in Clare how other counties are working to close the gap. Kerry were way ahead, but have been coming back to the field. An amount of players fell into a vacuum in the golden era, a generation of players was lost. Some people might say that’s irrelevant now, but it’s not.”
Kennedy is determined to beef up the underage structure this year, literally and metaphorically - introduce 15-year-old talents to different types of training. Coming into the job cold, he will be forced to work on the basis of the Under-16s of North and South Kerry from two years ago, and whittle it down to a manageable squad thereafter.
Meanwhile in Ulster?
“Tyrone are being spoken about already, I hear they’ve a lot of work done and they are the side to beat.”
Mick O’Dwyer isn’t so worried.
“There are still good footballers coming through. I remember back in 1973/’74, when Cork were winning All-Irelands and dominating at Under-21 level, everyone in Kerry thought we were in for a barren period.”
However the maestro agrees that the green and gold jersey no longer scares other counties.
“The competition is a lot stiffer. In our days, the Ulster counties used come to Croke Park for a look around the stadium before taking the obligatory beating.”
Fr McAleer remembers those days but believes the wheel has turned.
“Our minors prepare with Ulster League ties, then they go into fierce competition in the provincial championship. Kerry’s route to Croke Park is too easy.”
He also suspects that Kerry’s mindset is still in transition from expectation of victory to strategically planning it.
“I think Kerry took their (senior) defeat in the 2003 semi-final very badly. But why should they have felt they had a right to win that game? It was the same this year. All the pundits were zoning in on the individual battles before the final, whereas we felt that collectively we were better organised and we weren’t relying on any one player.”
If that suggests a level of disrespect from Tyrone, Fr McAleer is quick to dispel it.
“Talk about the demise of Kerry football is grossly exaggerated. We all came up admiring Kerry football, and there is still a huge well of respect there. But we no longer fear them.”
It is clear from speaking to several coaches that the minor modus operandi in Tyrone is not so innovative as to make an appreciable difference.
Fr McAleer - who insists this year’s Tyrone seniors did no collective weight training at any stage of the season - points to the fact there are key football people in the schools structure throughout the county, but that doesn’t recognise that Jack O’Connor is a schoolteacher himself, and knows the college scene better than most.
He also says they trawl the lower leagues for talent - Kevin Hughes was an example - but Kerry has always delved deep for its stars.
Perhaps it’s just planning, refusing to presume the future will take care of itself.
Jack O’Connor thinks so.
The morning after this year’s All-Ireland final defeat, O’Connor found himself musing over another loss to Ulster.
“The underage structures in the north are ahead of the others. I’ve noticed it at colleges level. They seem to be strong up there, extremely well-organised with coaching systems in place. They are putting in a lot of time, money and effort at grassroots level.
“Ulster teams have raised the stakes and it’s up to the other counties to go that bit higher again.”
The question is: are they prepared to? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Article in Tomorrows Examiner... Post by buck02 on 14 Dec, 2005, 10:44
Read the Arena article this morning on the way to work, didnt really tell us anything we didnt know down here already though, more geared towards readers in the rest of the country. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Article in Tomorrows Examiner... Post by Walter_Mitty on 14 Dec, 2005, 11:16
Yeah....agree with you there Buck 02.....
I'm not that extremely worried at the lack of success.... Minors and Under 21's are very competitive at the moment and in all fairness, Kerry have being in the closing stages of the minor more often than not....
Would agree with Scanlons comment re the U-21's
I really liked that comment about how many world youth championships have Brazil??? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Article in Tomorrows Examiner... Post by austinstacksabu on 14 Dec, 2005, 11:28
To paraphrase Tony Leen's last words:
The question is: are we just talking? I mentioned all of the above including the players mentioned, last October after the All Ireland. There is absolutely nothing new in this. But what are the county board doing about it?
Anybody know? I've heard of nothing, Eamonn O'Sullivan's report didn't make any reference to any new programmes. Sean Walsh's report made no reference to new programmes. There was no report of any allocation of money to more coaching at colleges level.
And one fact up there annoyed me. It mentioned that Kerry have four senior colleges sides playing football. And Eamonn's point is? In Ulster, seven of the 8 teams competing in the Ulster Schools quarter finals were from Tyrone.
As to Pat O'Shea's comments. Pat, look at what they do in Tyrone and Down (I've them backed to win the All Ireland by 2008). You have a squad at every age level, correct. But if a player begins to show promise at 15/16/17, those who don't make the initial cut, but who are interested in playing football and want to succeed, have been doing work at school outside of the county development squads and if they show promise, and are called up, they're not miles behind. This is through the employment of coaches to the schools through the UK sport education grants to schools. Thus, the squad is churning the whole time, fellas are dropping off, better fellas coming on, but they're not miles behind development wise because they've been working in school at it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Article in Tomorrows Examiner... Post by buck02 on 14 Dec, 2005, 11:41
As i was reading it alrite I was definately thinking he got a lot of his ideas for the article from our discussions on this forum post all ireland defeat.
Can anybody tell me this for definate (although I think I know the answer myself) - is there a coach (or coaches) who visits each and every primary school in the county at moment? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Article in Tomorrows Examiner... Post by Jo90 on 14 Dec, 2005, 12:11
In the 9 years previous to 1975 Kerry won just one Munster minor title and the Seniors from '75 to '86 didn't seem to do too badly despite the lack of success at minor level! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Article in Tomorrows Examiner... Post by FatTom on 14 Dec, 2005, 12:52
Yeah and we always have quality players every year who have the potential to make the step up.
I really thought we'd do it this year.
Look maybe we do need to improve underage structure but there is nothing wrong witht the talent coming through at present.
And in Kerry success and tradition will remain and dedicated fellas kicking the ball off the wall in an effort to become the next Seamus or Gooch will continue till the cows come home.
We aren't in danger, we'll go through lean periods all top counties do -but as long as the heart and tradition remain we'll hold our own.
We were unlicky in the final this year and as long as we stay focused we have the talent and ability to win all irelands oozing class like we did before. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: "A minor problem?" Post by austinstacksabu on 14 Dec, 2005, 14:11 We were unlucky in the final this year.
Tom, explain that one for me? Unlucky? I honestly believe we were deservedly beaten off the field by a superiour side who knew how to play their own game to maximum effect. We didn't know what to do when the pressure was on and the intensity racheted up a few notches. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: "A minor problem?" Post by kerrygold on 15 Dec, 2005, 12:25
i think the best place to target the underage players are in the schools,if you look at south kerry and the school in caherciveen look at what the school and the all the subsequent teams in the area have achieved,the achievements of the south kerrys district teams in the county championships have been huge over the last 3 or 4 years.it shows what can be done with the right people and the right facilities in place.Target the nurseries,caherciveen,sem,kilorglin,green,dingle,and pump money,personell and facilities into them while also creating new nurseries in places like kenmare,castleisland and north kerry. Our minors haven't had the cutting edge once they've got to croker over the last few years,its a worrying trend,success breds success.we should be ruthless in our quest for titles at minor,u21 and junior level all stepping stones to the senior team.We should also be putting out our best club team to represent kerry in munster,another handy munster for nemo this year.In the modern world you have to ruthless to survive in bussiness,the same is starting to apply to modern day football,our northern friends have demonstrated this and have risen the bar.Were still well up there in the pecking order and our stats since 2000 prove that.4 all-irelands and a replay contested in 6 seasons,a national league won,6 munster championships won.Thats huge since the turn of a new centuary and mellinium and is comparible with any of the great times passed in kerry football.We just need to sharpen up our underage structures and keep beavering away.Get additional personal and facilities into the primary and secondary shools.It will be interesting to see where this potentially talked about 36 million from the opening of crokers goes,wouldn't it be great to see it improving personal and facilities in the schools around the country and promoting gaelic games. I think we will have a great chance of success in 2006,i dont believe the nothern teams are miles ahead of us,probally more motivated last year,if you take into account the record of defending champions over the last 15 seasons,a new year,different form teams,the retirements of key players,motivationals desires being satisfied etc,etc,we have everything to play for in the new year,it'll boil down to 4 or 5 teams again. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: "A minor problem?" Post by scan1 on 15 Dec, 2005, 12:29
Dont think Kerry will ever have a problem with young fell's coming through!!every young fella growing up in Kerry knows if they make the county setup they will become household names and they will have a good chance of sucess!!in other counties this isnt the case and nomatter how hard they train they wont be playing in front of 80000 people or in a packed Fitzgerald stadium in the middle of the summer!!Playing with Kerry almosts garuntees this and thats why the young fellas in Kerry,Tyrone,Armagh,Mayo etc will go thar extra mile to be the best!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: "A minor problem?" Post by outsider on 20 Dec, 2005, 17:05
alot of tyrone clubs would like it noted that the bulk of the work in coaching and training is carried out by club coaches. the rose tinted glasses that fr gerard and mickey look thro' can see no further than the school. schools do play a role but they are not the be all and end all that some would have us believe. the club people in tyrone work tirelessly to promote all aspects of the association and this is reflected in the succes they are now achieving. the problem i see with some clubs in some parts of the country are that they have lost the voluntary ethos and the drive that made the organisation flourish all over the country 30/40 years ago
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Post by Admin on Mar 27, 2006 20:42:47 GMT
[moved post...]
Kerry behind the times at underage! Post by bigbrother on 27/03/06 at 20:27
I thought it was interesting to note that Tyrone have had the majority of this year’s minor panel in training and being coached together for over two years. The other Northern teams have also followed suit. They also play an intercounty Under 16 competition in Ulster. The training methods are not just coaching but specific weights and diet programs are included as well. I think we should care because the level of professionalism and investment they bring to the whole process is obviously paying off. I don’t think we should rely on this ‘we are Kerry and we will always produce good players’ approach. It’s time to cotton on to the fact that where the North is well ahead is in the underage preparation. It’s not just about talent drying up in Kerry, it is failure to modernise and prepare properly that will lead to another long term senior All-Ireland football famine.
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Post by watchdahop on Mar 28, 2006 7:48:51 GMT
Some interesting stuff. Looking at the League so far this year no new talent unearthed.
Looking at the U21s it seems that not enough work is being done. It seems like the attitude to the U21s is to just get the thing over with as soon as possible. This policy will haunt Kerry in the future.
I know for a fact that Cork started with their U21s in October and had loads of work done. All of last years minors are on weights programmes.
There doesnt seem to be any continuity in Kerry. Its a case of I take the minors and dont worry about anyone else. I take the U21s and dont bother with anyone else. There seems to be no co-ordination.
The amazing thing is years ago Kerry were the most innovative county of all: having collective training for weeks under Dr Eamon OSullivan and going on round the world tours. Now with all the Celtic Tiger and booming economy we are just falling behind? Can we get Denis Brosnan in to look at it?
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Post by Admin on Mar 28, 2006 13:08:35 GMT
LAUNCH OF DEVELOPMENT SQUADS
On this Thursday March 30th at 8.30 p.m. at The Meadowland Hotel, Tralee, the Coaching Programme for Under age Development Squads in the county entitled “The Way Forward” will be officially launched by Kerry Senior Football Manager, Jack O’Connor. Members of the Kerry Senior Football team will also be in attendance.
The 7 full-time coaches in the county will be introduced and they will outline details of the schedules for the under age Hurling and Football Development Squads.
There will be Development Squads from under 14 right up to senior and coaching sessions will take place at venues throughout the county. The initiative will allow players to get expert coaching as well as training and competing with players of a similar ability level for the purpose of forming elite panels at all age levels in the county.
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