|
Post by FatTom on Jan 19, 2005 12:43:21 GMT
from Hogan Stand lets pray this is true
Sin bin to get the boot Wednesday, January 19, 2005
The controversial sin bin rule looks set to be abolished before the start of the National League next month after players and managers criticised the new format.
A meeting of the football rules task force last Monday night discussed the negative reaction to the new rule, however their decision will not be made known until they meet with their hurling counterparts.
But strong indications from Croke Park suggest that the sin bin rule will be abolished as soon as possible, meaning that the League campaigns will be played without the controversial ruling.
The sin bin rule has come in for much criticism as many believe that referees do not understand the technical part of the rule and that players are been forced off in some situations while other times they get away with the offence.
GAA President Sean Kelly admitted that it looks almost certain that the sin bin rule will be altered in some way when the task force meet again to discuss the rule.
Kelly said: "I would presume that the Football Task Force will be making some suggestions about alterations to the rule. There will probably be some tweaking alright but you always going to have that with experiments and these type of things."
|
|
|
Post by liammac on Jan 19, 2005 13:15:29 GMT
This was in todays examiner Tom and gives a different view totally. I'd say it will stay for the NL but in a slightly different format. The publishing of what exactly constitutes a yellow card should be a big help. The other night 2 of the 3 players sin binned in the Limerick Cork game were very unlucky. Players should be binned for intentional fouling. Not all fouls are intentional.
By Jim O'Sullivan THE rules experimentation in subsidiary competitions will continue in the upcoming Allianz National League competitions, which begin with the meeting of Cork and Kerry footballers under lights at Páirc Ui Rinn on Friday week.
While it will be a priority to identify more clearly the specific fouls which lead to players being instantly sin-binned, the Chairman of the Football Task Force, Tommy Moran insisted yesterday that there was no question of abandoning the experiment.
"There has been a lot of negative reaction, but you have to take an overall view,'' said Mr. Moran, the current Connacht Chairman. "It would be wrong to condemn the rule changes simply because people do not immediately agree with them.
"We set out to try and eliminate off-the-ball fouling, deliberate fouling, pulling down players and blocking the runs of players. People are saying we will make a pansy's game out of it, but not at all! We have been complaining for years about negative fouling. At least we are trying to do something about it now."
The Football Rules Task Force convened in Dublin last night for a review meeting that had been planned from the outset - and, according to the Chairman, certainly not in response to criticism directed at the experiment. However, it was explained that no decisions could be taken at the meeting in relation to possible alterations. This will require discussions with the Hurling Task Force and then consideration by the Management Committee, who will meet at the end of next week.
In response to a question, Mr Moran said he would be in favour of a system which would penalise players who received single yellow cards in consecutive games. Under the present rules, there is no penalty stipulated.
In response to fairly widespread dissatisfaction with the sin-bin, he suggested that people were a little confused about what was involved. "There are specific fouls for which you are sin-binned. We are considering publishing a list of the offences for which a yellow card is immediately issued as we feel it could be very helpful to managers and the media.''
From his own perspective, he said he was pleased with the progress to date. He had attended two FBD games, which may not have been as competitive as the games, involving Laois, Dublin and Meath, but 'went off very well.' "The first half of the Roscommon/Sligo IT game had only 13 frees. I don't know when I was at a match before when there were that few. On Sunday I was at the Clare/Leitrim game, where there were two sin-binnings but very few frees, so the players are beginning to take notice."
|
|
|
Post by FatTom on Jan 19, 2005 14:26:02 GMT
. Players should be binned for intentional fouling. Not all fouls are intentional. Well if it were to be implemented at all I would have it in these circumstances but at the moment it is farcial. Well I didn't read it in the Indo I pulled it straight from Hoganstand.com Also if umpires and linesmen were more vocal we mighn't need this at all as I like the current system.
|
|
|
Post by liammac on Jan 19, 2005 14:38:33 GMT
Tom, today fm had it aswell this morn that it was to be thrown out. Hard to know what’s going to happen with it.
The situation has come though where it often pays to foul. Man going through on goal, pull him down outside the area and you’ve turned a near certain goal into a point and the only punishment you’ll get is a yellow card. If a player doesn’t pull him down then his manager and fellow players will criticise him for not doing so. The sin bin could help cut this out. Also teams know that it’s often beneficial to foul out the field rather than let the opposition build up momentum by letting the ball in quickly. No amount of extra vigilance by the officials will change this attitude. The sin bin will though. Can you think of anything else that will eliminate this kind of cynical play because football could do without all these games with 60+ frees.
Where a referee determines that a foul is either deliberate or dangerous then he should issue a card. I also like the idea of the third man into a scuffle getting an automatic yellow. At the match the other night a Limerick and Cork player squared up to each other and it was amusing to look at the reaction of the other players who were only a couple of yards away yet they refused to get involved. If the sin bin goes and the automatic yellow stays, it won’t be as effective.
|
|
|
Post by FatTom on Jan 19, 2005 15:08:31 GMT
I've already said that should be a straight red anyway. Look at the treatment Tyrone gave Darren Sullivan last year - 6 different players booked for taking him out of it - still 1 red would have sorted that, so we need to look at the strength of our referees. Out the field fouling is a problem but the appropriate ticking and carding can fix that - see your point though if it is blatant with no intent to play ball we need something but not the farce at the moment.
|
|
|
Post by thehighfield on Jan 19, 2005 15:17:09 GMT
A lot of similar arguments were made when yellow cards cames in and in the first few weeks there were a load of players sent off. The same old dinosaurs are now, as then, out beating their chests and yapping on about how farcical it is.
Once the referees were given clearer guidelines on what did or did not merit a card the trouble went away and red and yellow cards are now an accepted part of the game.
I would reckon that the same thing may happen with the sin-bin if the players become better accustomed to what constitutes a yellow card/sin-binning offence.
Give it time and if it doesn't settle down I am sure it will never make it past this years NL.
|
|
|
Post by buck02 on Jan 20, 2005 12:09:59 GMT
The national league will be made a farce if the continued experiment of the sin bin remains, its far too an important competition to be a ginuea pig for foolish rules. Football is a contact sport but the way refs dish out yellow cards games will end 10 men each if the rule stays. Bin the bin I say
|
|
madmac999
Senior Member
Who Put the ball in the Tarbert Net????
Posts: 724
|
Post by madmac999 on Jan 20, 2005 14:48:42 GMT
Was always a believer in the sin bin before it was introduced... but after seeing it in action the only word to describe it is a FARCE!!!! The quicker they get rid of it the better...
|
|
|
Post by thegrey on Jan 20, 2005 15:45:11 GMT
the sin bin has got its pros and cons. john maughan and mick o dwyer are both in favour of it. o byrne and mcgrath cup matches are not enough to say if it has worked yet. the recent meath game where boylan had 7 players sin binned is just an indication of a poor footballing standard and dirty teams. it will force teams to learn to tackle properly with out fouling. this in turn will make the game quicker and more enjoyable. what i am saying is that we need to give it time to develop and for teams to get used to it. we cannot say it is a failure just yet.
|
|
|
Post by scoobydo on Jan 21, 2005 17:19:56 GMT
from what i see the problem is, in football it is hard to tackle a player when he has the ball, the only time you can legitamately try to win the ball off him is when he is hopping it or soloing it, not easy to do, regardless of who the player is, even if your right beside him or he is running at you, you can't do a whole lot, most players dig the hand in and rummage the ball free, others try to tackle but end up fouling, others wait to give him a chance to have a kick and try to block it, sometimes you can bottle a lad up and cause him to over hold the ball and win a free, but these are all messy, in my view, room has to be made in the rules to encourage lads to get rid of the ball before coming into contact and to give the backs a chance to stop an opponent without it causing a free, and again (I've said it before) i think they have to bring in a tackle, it is a mans game after all, skill won't lose out, the skill in football is taking on an opponent and wrong footing him, you could be allowed to take out a sawn off shotgun and you wouldn't be able to stop a lad if he puts you off balance, my point is I don't think a tackle (like int rules) will in any way have a detremental effect on the skills of the game, the same lads like gooch etc will be able to run at lads and do their magic but it will give football a chance to open up. And thats my 2 cents
|
|
|
Post by Walter Mitty on Jan 24, 2005 17:53:10 GMT
Right so Scooby do....here s why I dont agree with you... While your spot on in your assessment of the methods of tackling a person...your missing the point that generrrally, all decent defenders are able to keep out attackers more times then not...otherwise the score in all matches would be 25pts each!!
Yes pulling and dragging is commen enough but I dont think its as rampant as people make it out to be
If we bring in the tackle.....what line will be drawn between acceptable and allowable???- we d only be making the refs job harder!!
What about all the injuries that will be sustained to both attackers and defenders???
2 of the main skills in the game is the ability to 'take a fella on' and the ability to shadow your forward and time your tackle....
I know where your coming from with the idea of bringing in a tackle but I believe that it would be for the detriment of football
|
|
KevinT
Senior Member
Posts: 434
|
Post by KevinT on Jan 24, 2005 17:59:52 GMT
Sean Kelly announced today that the sin bin will not be used for the league.
|
|
|
Post by FatTom on Jan 24, 2005 18:27:02 GMT
its a s&&t rule but what they have moved to is worse - its gonna encourage fellas to foul and play dirty.
This can't be true
"Speaking at a news conference in Hong Kong, Kelly said that instead of the sin bin, a player who commits two cautionable offences will be sent off for the rest of the game, but can be replaced."
|
|
|
Post by Original KYFan on Jan 24, 2005 19:49:47 GMT
Makes no sense to me at all - they have gone from making the rules more strict with the Bin to much less stringent with allowing for a player to be replaced after being sent off.
|
|
|
Post by scoobydo on Jan 25, 2005 9:08:34 GMT
walter_mitty,i'm speaking from a playing point of view and not being disrespectful but its 2 cents more than what you managed to contribute to the conversation, and its a darn sight better than the change they have come up with now!
|
|
|
Post by kerryman on Jan 25, 2005 9:29:47 GMT
I think the new rule is better than the straight sin bin to be honest, BUT having only 6 subs is going to be a major problem.
|
|
|
Post by scoobydo on Jan 25, 2005 10:02:11 GMT
do you reckon? what way exactly does it work? is getting a yellow the same as before? if it is then i think its not going to work, only way it can work is if you foul after recieving a yellow in which case it makes sending a lad off even harder, i'm not sure this sin bin works at all at all, i reckon changes are required but i don't think this is the way forward
|
|
|
Post by liammac on Jan 25, 2005 10:22:36 GMT
This new system is a joke and will only encourage foul play.
Take the first round match between Tip and Kerry this year. Now before anyone gets in a huff about me digging at Kerry this kind of thing is likely to happen in any game this summer but I just think this is a good example. It may not happen in this particular game but will happen in some games in my opinion.
Now suppose at half time that nobody has been put in the bin and Cooper and Browne are both destroying their men and scoring at will. Now instead of either manager substituting the player they’re on or switching them they tell them that they’re coming off but first they have to “take care” of Browne or Cooper for the good of the team and that they will be then able to substitute them once they get the yellow card. It is highly unlikely in this system that players will get straight reds unless they do something very severe.
Maybe I’m being ultra cynical but I think that this kind of thing will be rife over the summer if it’s passed into law. It offers little protection to forwards and it will still pay to foul in many circumstances.
|
|
|
Post by anciarraiodh on Jan 25, 2005 10:25:18 GMT
Scooby Do will you ever go away and form your own thread called International/Aussie Rules. Maybe some of your like minded friends who were never good enough for senior club football at home but who found a niche when they went to Oz playing Novice league Aussie rules on a Sunday after a few beers might then be able to respond to your rantings. Once again, we play football and not Aussie rules or any hybrid sport.
Any defender worth his salt is capable of a well timed tackle and can disposess his opponent if the rules of over carrying, charging, diving are enforced as strictly as jersey pulling, holding etc. Part of the reason that the tackle is so difficult in football is that referees always give the advantage to the attacker. Look at Johnny Crowley. He's a master at drawing a foul from defenders but a lot of the time he is the one guilty of fouling. Look at Mulligan and how he drew the foul in the Donegal game and got the defender sent off. It happens all the time and anyone from midflield back has to contend with it. The latest one is where the forward grabs on to the defender and pulls both players down thus getting the free in. It can end up with a yellow card for the defender and adds to the tally of frees at the end of the game. If referees are aware of this then the frees should go the other way.
This new rule is a joke and the Nothern teams must be laughing. They did not introduce the rules in the McKenna cup and look how they have been rewarded. Now they can use the swarm defence, pull and drag opponents, cynical tackles etc and they can replace any player that gets sent off for persistant fouling. Like Mickey Ned said, send on the hatchet men early on and replace them with the better footballers after they have the damage done. Don't be naieve enough to say that no manager would do that. We have already seen that teams will do whatever it takes to win Sam regardless of the standard of football.
|
|
|
Post by scoobydo on Jan 25, 2005 10:28:27 GMT
agreed... it is wrong.. and i don't think your being cynical, what you said will happen, and it will happen big time in club football, i've seen kerry players playing for their clubs getting dogs abuse during games and the only thing that stops players actually going out and doing him is cos they'd get sent off, this new rule allows for a team to pick a hatchet man to do a job and replace him with a better player once he picks up his yellow
|
|
|
Post by buck02 on Jan 25, 2005 10:33:43 GMT
Lads - the PR people of the GAA must be laughing. They've drummed up huge attention with the new rules and justified they're all expenses paid trip to Hong Kong.
The rules go before Central Council this weekend and there isnt a hope that it'll get passed. The boys in the far east know that, but its taken the attention away from their junket....
|
|
Karina
Senior Member
Posts: 281
|
Post by Karina on Jan 25, 2005 10:50:01 GMT
So if a person gets two cautions they are sent off but can be substituted. Shouldn't the number of substitutes allowed be increased a little to reflect this new rule? What happens if two many players get sent off then?
|
|
|
Post by scoobydo on Jan 25, 2005 10:52:33 GMT
anciarraiodh, hang on a second, the gaa have tried to introduce plenty from the hybrid game over the years in an effort to improve gaelic, including the mark (i think) and goal keeper kicking out off the hands, plus the free being taken from the hands and now the pick up has gone albeit on a trial period, i don't expect to see it back. everyone is entitled to their opinions on the rules whether they played one match 20 years ago or they have played the game with their county incidently (I don't fall into either bracket, though i have been playing senior club football at home for many years and have seen rules come and go and seen how i would like the game to change, I've also played it in oz and loved it, really enjoyed it and training in Jan in 40 degrees beats training in 3 degrees, standard is decent too came across a few familiar faces from the various divisions of the county league) , thats what makes the gaa. plenty of former county players have called for a tackle to be defined within the game, but i suppose they should go away and set up their own sport of aussie rules/international rules.
that aside and back to discussing the new rule you contradict yourself when you say any defender worth his salt should be able to execute a tackle, but go on to say that forwards get the advantage, the reason they change the rules is always to the advantage of the forward, I agree wholeheartedly with you with regard to clamping down on forwards, some (not all) are masters at "winning" frees, the auld run into a lad, catch his hand swing around, down you go, a free and quite often its a card, double whammy, but any time rules are discussed this never comes up, its all about the forwards and helping them. which is understandable as they have the fancy side of the game but defenders need to be given a break...
|
|
Karina
Senior Member
Posts: 281
|
Post by Karina on Jan 25, 2005 10:53:01 GMT
Just saw a comment about players being selected to take men out of it. Surely that would warrant a straight red. Therefore this new rule does not encourage foul play as if a player gets a straight red he can't be substituted.
|
|
|
Post by anciarraiodh on Jan 25, 2005 11:17:52 GMT
No contradiction. My point is that a defender should be able to execute the tackle as it exists and the problem is with the failure of referees to clamp down on forwards who continuously flout the rules.
With regards to the introduction of rules over the years, fair enough the game has changed in certain aspects over the years (punching the ball over the bar, frees from the hands, punching the ball into the net), but to introduce the tackle as you have suggested would lead to a different game altogether. Once that form of tackle was introduced we might as well be playing Aussie rules and it would be worse than that because it would be in the autumn and winter months. Can you just imagine a North Kerry final with that form of tackle and the sin bin rule where you can replace anyone sent off with a yellow card. There would be a riot.
Karina, you can still affect another player without getting a red card. It has being happening the whole time in big games. Look at Francie Belew in the Ulster club final when he decked Mickey Linden with a high challenge. Should have been a straight red but only got a yellow. With regards to persistant fouling, how are they going to cut that out if you can replace anyone sent off for it.
I think the most sailient point was made by Buck02. This rule still has to be passed and probably wont get through the committee stage.
|
|
|
Post by scoobydo on Jan 25, 2005 11:22:13 GMT
fair enough lad, agree with the point about lads doing a player without getting reprimanded and francie was a good example, i thought i heard on the radio that these rules will be in for the league so club players will also abide by these when they start back playing, east kerry leagues etc. we did anyway when they changed the free
|
|
|
Post by Walter Mitty on Jan 25, 2005 11:54:20 GMT
Will this new rule (a joke I might add) mean that players will get ticked for even the softest of fouls?? I can see refs going mad at the start sending fellas off for all sorts of harmless misdemours.....it ll be like a merry go round with all the players coming on and off
|
|
|
Post by scoobydo on Jan 25, 2005 12:03:57 GMT
probably not walter, they will be afraid to implement it, its like sending a player off and they won't do it until they have no other choice, the fear is it will be used instead of a red card, thus a player in need of a suspension will just get the yellow card, like the double yellow now for the fouling player, just gone for the rest of the game with the team allowed to bring a replacement on
|
|
|
Post by Walter Mitty on Jan 25, 2005 12:24:23 GMT
Yeah....I suppose if it is introduced all players will want is that its applied CONSISTENTLY!! The chances of that are slim enough though
|
|
|
Post by scoobydo on Jan 25, 2005 12:30:26 GMT
and thats a fact, there would be no need for any change if the rules were implemented correctly in the first place, umpires do nothing for the game as far as i'm concerned, they have little enough to do until a shot is taken, they should be helping ref's with off the ball situations (i know they are meant to be, but very rarely do unless the lad getting dogged retaliates then the two lads get booked). again though it is all well and good in an all-ireland in croke park, but a county league match down in scellig on a saturday night in may aren't going to have 4 independant umpires to help the ref either, so hands are tied to an extent!
|
|