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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Dec 7, 2020 15:53:03 GMT
How these are decided, I have no idea but we are not going back to a situation where we have 32 counties who are even remotely competitive. That day is dead. When was there ever a situation that 32 counties were remotely competitive? Prob not and I guess it was an inaccurate turn of phrase for what I was return to convey. We are never going back to a position where 32 teams compete at the top level. By compete, I mean it in terms of participation as opposed to potential to win. Any attempt to split Dublin will be met by subsequent dropping of other county teams. We’ll end up with about 16 ‘franchises’, it’s inevitable God that word, franchise, makes my skin crawl
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Dec 7, 2020 15:57:16 GMT
I'd split Dublin in a thousand pieces before merging counties. Both are inevitable. Dublin are so far ahead now & have established such a high bar that it will be impossible to get some counties anywhere near that. You referenced, and I agree with you, that there never was a time when all teams were competitive but a cycle came along for each county where they were competitive. The bar is too high now & won’t ever happen and we can’t afford to make it happen cos no amount of money will ever get Leitrim back to division 1 like they were 20 years ago. You’ll end up with a number of elite teams & that will be our top level
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Dec 7, 2020 16:01:57 GMT
I'd split Dublin in a thousand pieces before merging counties. Both are inevitable. Dublin are so far ahead now & have established such a high bar that it will be impossible to get some counties anywhere near that. You referenced, and I agree with you, that there never was a time when all teams were competitive but a cycle came along for each county where they were competitive. The bar is too high now & won’t ever happen and we can’t afford to make it happen cos no amount of money will ever get Leitrim back to division 1 like they were 20 years ago. You’ll end up with a number of elite teams & that will be our top level I still find it difficult to square the proposition that Dublin are impossibly far ahead considering the narrow margins and draws in their finals over the past decade.
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Post by Mickmack on Dec 7, 2020 16:13:33 GMT
I still find it hard to believe that people cant understand that the GAA money dividend hasnt actually happened yet.
Dublin are going to get BETTER.
Unrelenting and never ending.
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Post by dc84 on Dec 7, 2020 17:33:36 GMT
Firstly i think the money dividend has started to show as every player who was minor/u16 that has come through since 07/08 at a minimum has benefited, thats 12 years ago so most of the newer breed of dublins players under 26/27.
Secondly on dublin being brought close in finals last two finals have been 6 points and i have seen nothing yet to think this year will be any different. They are a better team now than 5 years ago thats the crux of it.for every brogan they lost they added a con o Callaghan or howard and scully for connolly and flynn.
Thats the scary thing its a different team nearly! I do think there will be a bit of a gap when cluxton,cooper,fitzsimons rock and mcarthy go especially cluxton and the last two but no doubt they will fill it with the strenght of their u20s who are in the final again this year and are going for their 5th title in 11 years keeping in mind they only had one prior to the money injection. We on the other hand have won one in 20 years, and people think we are going to challenge them because of our underage?? ( i know we probably wouldve won at least one with Clifford and O Shea)
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Dec 7, 2020 17:55:16 GMT
Secondly on dublin being brought close in finals last two finals have been 6 points and i have seen nothing yet to think this year will be any different. The first final last year was a draw and Kerry should have won. I wouldn't judge the closeness of this year's final given that Kerry and Donegal exited the stage early.
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Fado
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Post by Fado on Dec 7, 2020 20:02:08 GMT
Let's level the playing field. Time for the handicapper to step in, Dublin (-5) v Mayo
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Dec 7, 2020 20:23:17 GMT
Let's level the playing field. Time for the handicapper to step in, Dublin (-5) v Mayo Is that minus five players?!
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Post by Ballyfireside on Dec 7, 2020 20:52:12 GMT
Funny, or not, how people on the one hand dismiss the money factor while then emphasising that it was Sean Kelly's money that made Dublin. Money is a big part but all the resources must blend together and the crop of players is probably the biggest part. I suppose Dublin have it all which drives them further ahead and that is soul destroying for weaker counties as they feel excluded.
And of course the ladies football will now all seek parity and rightly so, and there will be some fireworks if they keep mucking our girls around.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Dec 7, 2020 21:38:09 GMT
Funny, or not, how people on the one hand dismiss the money factor while then emphasising that it was Sean Kelly's money that made Dublin. Money is a big part but all the resources must blend together and the crop of players is probably the biggest part. I suppose Dublin have it all which drives them further ahead and that is soul destroying for weaker counties as they feel excluded. And of course the ladies football will now all seek parity and rightly so, and there will be some fireworks if they keep mucking our girls around. The blame for mucking the Galway players around lies with the LGFA who have no interest in merging with the GAA.
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Post by Mickmack on Dec 7, 2020 22:08:24 GMT
Irish Times Logo
As Dublin stroll to another final, when will the GAA say the system is broken? Dublin will say margins are close but the sheer scale of population says otherwise
Seán Moran about 16 hours ago
Jim McGuinness made the point on Sky on Saturday evening that had Dublin not lost the 2014 All-Ireland they’d now be on eight-in-a-row. He didn’t develop the point that his Donegal team’s coup in that year’s All-Ireland semi-final had provided Jim Gavin and his management team with the epiphany that would see Dublin evolve into an unprecedented force.
Coach Declan Darcy became so obsessed with the defensive shortcomings of the defeat that he stuck the total conceded, 3-14 up on his laptop.
One of the outcomes was a more structured game plan and a deeper defensive sensibility. The trademark possession game, devised to counter blanket defence by going backwards to reconfigure an attack if it was threatened by a cul de sac or turnover and the stretching of the opposition with players hugging the sideline were on view in the weekend’s All-Ireland semi-final.
It means that if a team manages, as Cavan did in the second half, to regain possession from one of these power plays without conceding a score it becomes a matter of celebration.
It’s not patronising the Ulster champions in saying that they did well in the circumstances, showing commitment and dedication in competing and getting in blocks but they were never going to be able to achieve what was necessary at both ends to end up with a total that might threaten what they would concede.
But it’s not simply structure or process. In an interview with The Irish Times on Saturday, Michael Dempsey, who spent 15 years as coach and member of Brian Cody’s Kilkenny management, identified another key element that doesn’t lend itself to sports science and metrics.
“Dublin are the best example in any sport that I’ve seen of players being totally empowered to go out and get the best out of themselves and problem-solve as they go. They’re exceptional but illustrate how it’s pointless to get carried away with one aspect of the mix.”
In the context of having reached a sixth successive All-Ireland final for the first time since 1979, a sequence with a 50 per cent success rate for Kevin Heffernan’s teams – as opposed to their successors’ 100 per cent record to date – the widespread concern about the competitive future of the championship is understandable.
Dublin protest, as manager Dessie Farrell did on Saturday, that the county’s winning margins in finals is extraordinarily tight - on average 2.7 points over seven All-Irelands not counting two replays. The problem with that is that sustained success creates its own trend and, to further that, the last two years have produced the biggest margins plus uncompetitive semi-finals.
It happens every time a county achieves serial success. The canary in the coalmine is All-Ireland attendance. Kerry’s four-in-a-row sequence culminated in the 1981 final which didn’t attract a capacity attendance. After Kilkenny wiped the floor with Waterford in the 2008 All-Ireland, Croke Park officials privately acknowledged concerns that the same would happen in hurling but the rise of Tipperary arrested the trend.
Dublin’s 2018 All-Ireland with Tyrone didn’t sell out and although this was not officially acknowledged, the weight of anecdotal evidence of empty seats in different areas of the stadium suggested otherwise.
There is also the historical fact that both football and hurling have all along had very restrictive rolls of honour.
It was veteran RTÉ analyst Colm O’Rourke who issued the sternest jeremiad on Saturday.
“Dublin’s dominance is not going to stop, not this year, nor next year. We could be looking at Dublin going for 10-in-a-row. This is a pattern. Dublin have created a monster which the GAA at central level need to decide what to do with.
“The sheer scale of numbers playing in Dublin is astonishing. Not only have they the numbers, the finance – they probably have the best players we have ever seen.”
His colleague, Tomás Ó Sé drew attention to the fact that of the Dublin team that broke through in 2011, just three – Stephen Cluxton, Michael Fitzsimons and James McCarthy – were starting against Cavan.
This is the strongest evidence that what we are seeing that it may not be simply an outstanding generation but rather, as O’Rourke said, a pattern or trend.
Presenter Joanne Cantwell said that the programme hoped to get someone from the GAA to talk about “their perspective”.
That would be instructive because the organisation is hardly unconcerned about the undermining of its main revenue source.
Yet indications have always been that Croke Park is also keen to continue the games development programme in Dublin, which has been so successful in raising the profile of the games in the state’s biggest population centre.
Various palliative measures have been advanced such as getting the county out of Croke Park for its league and championship fixtures up until the concluding stages of the All-Ireland, something that has bred a familiarity with the stadium that other counties can’t match.
The Strategic Review Committee in 2002 proposed a big national sponsorship deal rather than 32 local ones, which have tended to magnify the gap in resources between counties. The problem with all of these ideas is that they will result in revenue loss at a time when the GAA has seen its normal income streams dry up for nearly nine months with no end in sight.
The money argument about the county’s dominance has never been convincing because the issues of development funding and competitive imbalance have always been separate, as O’Rourke pointed out.
“I am not one of those people who feel we should cut Dublin’s finances - because that, to me, is not the answer. Those finances are going into schools, creating new players, new clubs.
“So, to me, the only answer for the future has to be dividing Dublin into three or four teams otherwise everyone else is wasting their time - and eventually someone is going to have to sit down and have a serious discussion about what we are going to do with Dublin.”
That serious discussion begins and ends with a population of 1.3 million, a county with as many people as a province and the sheer scale of playing numbers coming through as well as the commercial potential of so big a market.
Gaelic games may still be an amateur pursuit but the intercounty competitions, which are the mainstay of the GAA’s income, are increasingly organised on a professional basis with more matches and intensifying levels of preparation amongst the top counties.
This has seen county teams become less ‘representative’ in nature - playing a handful of fixtures spread over the summer – and more like club sides with regular and at times, weekly schedules.
At what point do the GAA declare the current system broken? Might they get away with a couple more years before deconstructing what has been the basis of the association for the past 135 years?
Their reluctance is understandable. Breaking up Dublin, first floated by 2002’s Strategic Review Committee, is a radical step given the centrality of county identity and the uncertain prospects of trying to forge entirely new allegiances.
In other words do they want a permanent solution to what they must still be hoping is a temporary problem?
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Fado
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Post by Fado on Dec 7, 2020 23:39:32 GMT
Let's level the playing field. Time for the handicapper to step in, Dublin (-5) v Mayo Is that minus five players?! I was thinking points but now that you mention it, other options should not be ruled out.
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Post by dc84 on Dec 8, 2020 8:37:24 GMT
Funny, or not, how people on the one hand dismiss the money factor while then emphasising that it was Sean Kelly's money that made Dublin. Money is a big part but all the resources must blend together and the crop of players is probably the biggest part. I suppose Dublin have it all which drives them further ahead and that is soul destroying for weaker counties as they feel excluded. And of course the ladies football will now all seek parity and rightly so, and there will be some fireworks if they keep mucking our girls around. The blame for mucking the Galway players around lies with the LGFA who have no interest in merging with the GAA. On this point i think it was shocking stuff from the lgfa, why didnt they have the game scheduled for croke park anyway? But am i missing something with cork as everything i have seen is poor galway etc were cork not in the same boat?
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Post by baurtregaum on Dec 8, 2020 10:11:02 GMT
Every man and his dog has an opinion on Dublin and the funding issue so below is my tupence worth and a few points that I feel are important.
1. OTB (I think) had a someone talking recently about Motor Skills in Children. I mean being able to run or jump properly at 7 or 8 years old. According to the experts, if you fall behind in Motor Skills most of us will never catch up and the consequences often remain throughout our adult lives.
Because we are becoming more and more sedentary kids today are not hitting milestones that their parents would have easily met. When my fathers was a garsún his idea of afterschool activities would be weeding onion sets or chopping wood, with a game of football if time allowed. My generation not so much, I am more of the 'playstation generation', and being sedentary is pretty normal. As time goes by this is more and more the case for younger kids.
Incidentally, while children are better off playing a variety of different activities, Gaelic Football was identified as the sport which best develops these skills.
2. Looking at demographics, we are facing an increasing tax burden of paying for older people in terms of healthcare and pensions. We are also facing a looming obesity crisis in the coming years and will pay for this dearly - particularly in joint replacements, various cancers and cardiovascular disease.
3. Something that Bally and others here have noted frequently is rural depopulation. Western seaboard counties have been losing population, to varying degrees, since the Famine. In Kerry this seems to be most pronounced on the Iveragh peninsula, but alot of our young countywide leave for college outside of the county and simply never come back. Many settle in Dublin. As Gilroy noted, this is a net gain for Dublin, as those 'imigrants' might get involved in the local club. Mom and Dad might be Kerry to the bone but junior will cheer on and perhaps play for Dublin.
I like Gilroy, I always have, he completely changed the culture around the Dublin footballers and helped them land their most important title. For that he has my respect. While he threw out a few of the usual pro-Dublin arguments, he is dead right when he said that the GAA need to look ahead to the type of Ireland we will be living in in 2050, with ever increasing urbanisation and a shrinking rural population.
Given the above points 1 and 2, it does not make sense for any sporting body to cut funding that would affect kids development and participation.
Tom Ryan was interviewed by Colm Parkinson last year and would not countenance cutting this funding. You would be 'cutting PE for kids', to paraphrase Tom. In PR terms it could prove be a disaster and would feed into a wider societal issue. (I do think that it should be looked into as to what percentage of their these GDOs are actually spending in the various clubs.)
If funding cannot and will not be cut what then?
Dublin could win 10 in a row at this stage but point 3 makes it clear to me, that regardless of Dublin winning or not there is a population time bomb and a split is inevitable. Split Dublin along the lines of the 4 councils and target funding where necessary - between the canals is still very weak according to Gilroy. Annascaul, I too am loathe to split Dublin.
I agree with Pat Gilroy in that any change going forward needs to be made with a long-term view, not just stopping a currently dominant Dublin but what will the country look like in 2050 and beyond.
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Post by Mickmack on Dec 8, 2020 10:32:56 GMT
Every man and his dog has an opinion on Dublin and the funding issue so below is my tupence worth and a few points that I feel are important. 1. OTB (I think) had a someone talking recently about Motor Skills in Children. I mean being able to run or jump properly at 7 or 8 years old. According to the experts, if you fall behind in Motor Skills most of us will never catch up and the consequences often remain throughout our adult lives. Because we are becoming more and more sedentary kids today are not hitting milestones that their parents would have easily met. When my fathers was a garsún his idea of afterschool activities would be weeding onion sets or chopping wood, with a game of football if time allowed. My generation not so much, I am more of the 'playstation generation', and being sedentary is pretty normal. As time goes by this is more and more the case for younger kids. Incidentally, while children are better off playing a variety of different activities, Gaelic Football was identified as the sport which best develops these skills. 2. Looking at demographics, we are facing an increasing tax burden of paying for older people in terms of healthcare and pensions. We are also facing a looming obesity crisis in the coming years and will pay for this dearly - particularly in joint replacements, various cancers and cardiovascular disease. 3. Something that Bally and others here have noted frequently is rural depopulation. Western seaboard counties have been losing population, to varying degrees, since the Famine. In Kerry this seems to be most pronounced on the Iveragh peninsula, but alot of our young countywide leave for college outside of the county and simply never come back. Many settle in Dublin. As Gilroy noted, this is a net gain for Dublin, as those 'imigrants' might get involved in the local club. Mom and Dad might be Kerry to the bone but junior will cheer on and perhaps play for Dublin. I like Gilroy, I always have, he completely changed the culture around the Dublin footballers and helped them land their most important title. For that he has my respect. While he threw out a few of the usual pro-Dublin arguments, he is dead right when he said that the GAA need to look ahead to the type of Ireland we will be living in in 2050, with ever increasing urbanisation and a shrinking rural population. Given the above points 1 and 2, it does not make sense for any sporting body to cut funding that would affect kids development and participation. Tom Ryan was interviewed by Colm Parkinson last year and would not countenance cutting this funding. You would be 'cutting PE for kids', to paraphrase Tom. In PR terms it could prove be a disaster and would feed into a wider societal issue. (I do think that it should be looked into as to what percentage of their these GDOs are actually spending in the various clubs.) If funding cannot and will not be cut what then? Dublin could win 10 in a row at this stage but point 3 makes it clear to me, that regardless of Dublin winning or not there is a population time bomb and a split is inevitable. Split Dublin along the lines of the 4 councils and target funding where necessary - between the canals is still very weak according to Gilroy. Annascaul, I too am loathe to split Dublin. I agree with Pat Gilroy in that any change going forward needs to be made with a long-term view, not just stopping a currently dominant Dublin but what will the country look like in 2050 and beyond. God there are some marvellous scribes on this forum. I too think the way to go is a combination of splitting Dublin and amalgamating counties. Connacht may be one team for example.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Dec 8, 2020 10:46:45 GMT
I don't think Baurt is pro-splitting or pro-amalgamating (coagulating might be a better word).
At the risk of repeating myself: a specific benefit the DCC is reaping is that because the (imo v.laudable) GDO funding is not being underwritten by them, they are free to finance their senior team to the zenith, and do not have to fundraise seven figures a year to keep the show on the road.
The Dublin CB only to fundraise five figures.
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Post by Ard Mhacha on Dec 8, 2020 17:12:43 GMT
I think splitting Dublin in the NFL should be trialled. They did it with Fingal in hurling. I’m sure they could manage at least one B team/regional team.
Sure Down had a second hurling team (South Down) in the NHL for a few seasons. And Down is hardly awash with hurling clubs.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Dec 8, 2020 17:47:06 GMT
My other bugbear is noting that Dublin do not enter a team in the Junior Championship.
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Post by jackiel on Dec 8, 2020 17:49:49 GMT
Point of interest regarding coaching. Meath GAA have 16 GPO's & 4 GDA's. Only 2 of the GPO's are full time with 1 club only. GPO salary €28,500 of which €20,000 is paid by the club, Leinster Council pays the rest. Most clubs who share a coach take them for a limited number of hours per week. Dublin's GPO's are part funded by Sport Ireland and I'm told clubs only pay half the salary.
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Post by Mickmack on Dec 8, 2020 18:01:26 GMT
My other bugbear is noting that Dublin do not enter a team in the Junior Championship. What about the exponential growth of population in cities and rural depopulation. The GAA can hardly pretend it hasnt happened and is not going to accelerate. Tis is a big ask of the women of child bearing age of the kingdom to keep pace and got knows not all of them would on for having 20 or 30 children.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Dec 8, 2020 18:05:11 GMT
So on top of all the GAA central council money, Sport Ireland are giving them money too?
Was that the ‘deal’ done between Bertie & John Bailey? 2 people who turned out to be absolute crooks
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Dec 8, 2020 18:18:40 GMT
My other bugbear is noting that Dublin do not enter a team in the Junior Championship. What about the exponential growth of population in cities and rural depopulation. The GAA can hardly pretend it hasnt happened and is not going to accelerate. Tis is a big ask of the women of child bearing age of the kingdom to keep pace and got knows not all of them would on for having 20 or 30 children. I am not sure what that has to do with I posted to be honest.
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Post by Mickmack on Dec 8, 2020 19:12:36 GMT
So on top of all the GAA central council money, Sport Ireland are giving them money too? Was that the ‘deal’ done between Bertie & John Bailey? 2 people who turned out to be absolute crooks I was under the impression that Berties taxpayer money for Dublin GAA back then was 5 million paid from Sports Ireland. If its still going on separate to the GAA money its takin the p1ss even more than we thought. It would be good to establish this.
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Post by Mickmack on Dec 9, 2020 9:06:04 GMT
John Fogarty: Splitting Dublin becoming a sad possibility
Dublin's lack of self-awareness in their Blue Wave strategic plan when they called for financial and administrative provincial status reopened the argument John Fogarty: Splitting Dublin becoming a sad possibility
TUE, 08 DEC, 2020 - 07:15 John fogarty John Fogarty You can’t simply say Dublin were asking for it.
It wasn’t them who looked to be split as the Strategic Review Committee (SRC) proposed back in 2002.
Yet they didn’t completely throw out the idea of being divided in two. “We met the Dublin officers and they were positive,” said former GAA president and SRC chairman Peter Quinn at the time. “That’s not to say they agreed with everything, but they committed themselves to adopting a positive approach in taking it to their clubs. People must remember that even if Dublin is split, it will still be the biggest two counties in terms of population.”
Nine years later, their lack of self-awareness in their Blue Wave strategic plan when they called for financial and administrative provincial status reopened the argument.
“It will require Dublin County Board to step up to its responsibility to implement the strategic initiatives recommended in this review,” it read. “It will also require Central Council to embrace a different funding model, one which addresses the strategic significance of Dublin. One way of addressing this issue is for the GAA to extend provincial status to Dublin for certain purposes.”
Standing as they were as newly-crowned All-Ireland champions after winning six of the previous seven Leinster SFCs, wanting their cake and to eat it wasn’t a good look for Dublin.
Setting out an objective of winning the Sam Maguire Cup every three years was slammed as “not practical” by then senior football manager Pat Gilroy.
Six All-Irelands in the following eight seasons and on the cusp of a seventh in nine on Saturday week, it turns out it wasn’t ambitious enough.
While defending the Blue Wave, Dublin secretary John Costello in his 2011 report spoke of the need to change the structure of the football championship.
“Perhaps we have played hostage to the constraints of geography and history for too long and I believe there is now a mood for change.”
There certainly is at the moment but it is very much directed at Dublin’s geography and history as they dismissed another team with ease this past weekend.
Regularly and with some clarity since 2011, Costello has explained why breaking up Dublin would be disastrous for the GAA yet to be looking for provincial funding at the same time as the senior footballers are crushing those around him beggars belief.
What was most interesting about Gilroy’s contribution on The Sunday Game was his willingness to consider the capital being split providing there was consideration given to amending other county boundaries.
Stressing the county and provincial structures aren’t working, he said: “If that (dividing Dublin) is part of the solution, fine, but see what the problem is first. I’m not so sure that a million people are interested in Gaelic football.”
But Gilroy did stress that aside from population and proximity, the advantage Dublin has in attracting the best because of higher paid positions and those people getting involved in the county’s clubs. “That’s a huge bonus. No other county gets that bonus. That’s a fact.”
So how do you equalise that advantage?
For a whole lot of reasons such as a sense of place and identity, the idea of breaking up the county is something this column has been reluctant to support.
However, reality is pushing us ever closer to determining it as a genuine solution. Look at how the county could deliver the two teams below and the idea that it would diminish competition falls flat on its face.
Drawing comparisons with a professional sport is an exercise fraught with danger but it is worth considering in the case of Dublin’s size as roughly 19% on the island of Ireland live in the county.
Melbourne, the home of Australian Rules and with a population of 4.485m, also around 19% of its country’s total population, provides half of the AFL premiership’s 18 teams. Sydney, with a 5.23m population and close to 20% of Australia’s population, has nine of the 15 Australian teams involved in the National Rugby League competition.
A win for Mayo in 11 days’ time would be hailed as proof that Dublin’s dominance at senior football level is cyclical when it is anything but.
In truth, it will only delay the GAA facing up to the fact that it should have been more careful with what they wished for in the capital.
Dublin North: Stephen Cluxton (Parnells); Eoin Murchan (Na Fianna), Jonny Cooper (do.), Philly McMahon (Ballymun Kickhams); James McCarthy (Ballymun Kickhams), John Small (do,), Eric Lowndes (St Peregrine’s); Brian Fenton (Raheny), Brian Howard (do.); Aaron Byrne (Na Fianna), Ciarán Kilkenny (Castleknock), Seán Bugler (Oliver Plunketts/Eoghan Ruadh); Paddy Small (Ballymun Kickhams), Dean Rock (do.), Cormac Costello (Whitehall Colmcille).
Dublin South: Lorcan Molloy (St Anne’s); David Byrne (Naomh Olaf), Rory O’Carroll (Kilmacud Crokes), Michael Fitzsimons (Cuala); Cillian O’Shea (Kilmacud Crokes), Cian O’Sullivan (do.), Robbie McDaid (Ballyboden St Enda’s); Michael Darragh Macauley (do.), Tom Lahiff (St Jude’s); Niall Scully (Templeogue Synge Street), Kevin McManamon (St Jude’s), Dan O’Brien (Kilmacud Crokes); Paul Mannion (do.), Con O’Callaghan (Cuala), Colm Basquel (Ballyboden St Enda’s).
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Post by dc84 on Dec 9, 2020 15:27:58 GMT
The north team above would still be the best team in ireland id say, south doesnt look as strong not by a good bit while it would flip in the hurling.
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Post by Mickmack on Dec 10, 2020 21:12:17 GMT
Premium How I see the 'Dublin Question' being answered without dividing or amalgamating counties
Ciarán Whelan Saying Dublin's decade of dominance is down to funding is as farcical as saying the reason Mayo have not won an All-Ireland SFC since 1951 is because of 'The Curse'
December 10 2020 07:38 PM This nation is famed for its faction fighting and with several centuries of practice we’ve become well versed in it! As the temperatures dropped last Saturday night in Croke Park, a cold and ill wind was picking up and blowing in the direction of Dublin’s senior football team.
The debate over Dublin GAA’s development funding rages on and on and on, with little clarity and much confusion abounding - it was this week’s faction fighting.
There are those who want to draw a short, straight line from this funding to Dublin's decade of dominance and say there's a direct correlation. For me that's as farcical as saying the reason Mayo have not won an All-Ireland SFC since 1951 is because of 'The Curse'.
Dublin senior teams have always been looked after in terms of the basic requirements of an inter-county set-up. I played for 14 seasons for the Dubs and we wanted for nothing, we could not point to shortcomings in that department for not reaching the Holy Grail.
Sure we even got a pre-season warm-weather training camp one year - a luxury not afforded to the Dublin senior footballers of the past few years. Though I'm told Jim Gavin brought the lads to Lambay Island off Howth Head last summer to camp out for the weekend!
Sports Science is another reason held up as a strong reason for Dublin’s success but yet I see GPS packs on the back of the jersey of nearly all senior football and hurling teams. If you have GPS systems, you obviously have analysts to make the data relevant.
ADVERTISEMENT Therefore I argue that the issue, to my mind, is far more nuanced and complex. To the best of my knowledge, the funding is utilised for the development of the game in the primary school age category.
The work done at this level in giving young boys and girls their first experience and an introduction to Gaelic games is very valuable, especially to clubs but the road from there to Croke Park and All-Ireland final day is light years away, or further.
Games Promotion Officers (GPOs)/ Games Development Officers (GDOs) work with kids through the primary schools system and encourage them to join their local GAA club. It is not some sort of elite coaching system to develop the next generation of inter-county players.
What I think certainly has had an impact is the pioneering of the 'Go Games' many years ago at juvenile level in the capital and the implementation of a much-improved club games schedule and of game rules and regulations that strongly encouraged, in fact forced, coaches to adopt a coaching strategy of developing balanced footballers, ie use of left and right foot, left and right hand.
Take a look back at last Saturday's victory over Cavan in Croke Park. By my notes Dublin scored six points when players used their less favoured side in the act of scoring (Con O’Callaghan on three occasions, Dean Rock twice and Cormac Costello).
It is not just in games where Dublin are comfortable when this statistic is prevalent. In their biggest games over the past few summers it is that ability that has been crucial in their greatest battles.
Then we have what I'll call 'The Matrix of the Metric', where graphics of figures are listed and then conclusions extrapolated.
ADVERTISEMENT One side of the debate will produce a figure for investment 'per registered adult player' in accordance with their metric, then some others will argue that the picture would look entirely different if you viewed it 'per capita' and then an entirely different figure if you utilised the growing numbers attending club nurseries and participating in our national games, both boys and girls, at juvenile level.
Never mind the numbers not involved in clubs but who benefit from the work of GPOs through school visitations.
There is no getting away from the fact that the population and numbers participating is an advantage for Dublin. While that was always the case, the increased participation at grassroots level, combined with the games structures will continue to produce a quality players.
So the 'Dublin Question' or 'Dublin Problem', as some frame it, does need examination by Croke Park's powerbrokers.
I'd neither argue for dividing Dublin or amalgamating other counties - I think both ideas are nonsense. Gaelic games have a tribal sense of identity which underpins their nature. To mess with this as part of some experiment would be fundamentally flawed.
But there are several areas which must be addressed in the short-term.
Wexford GAA have shown the value and merit of employing a commercial manager, when they announced in their yearly accounts this week that they have a tidy €1.2 cash reserves in the bank.
ADVERTISEMENT The GAA should have more commercial managers, not in every county initially if that was not possible, but pooled for the smaller counties with the job for the commercial manager to work on behalf of the counties under his/her remit.
In a partnership funded between clubs/county boards/provinces and the GAA centrally, there should be a greater roll-out of GPOs/GDOs across the nation.
I have heard representatives of some smaller clubs saying they could not muster the necessary finances to partly fund the employment of a GPO/GDO.
In such instances a Games Promotion Officer could work across two/three clubs, with all the clubs who benefit contributing for the club fraction of his/her salary.
Travel expenses for players should be met by the GAA centrally to alleviate the extra costs for counties who have players travelling longer distances to meet their inter-county commitments.
There is no silver bullet to the situation but what is needed is greater clarity, greater vision and a little less faction fighting!
Online Editors
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Dec 10, 2020 22:24:36 GMT
So Whelan paints the claim as people saying that all of Dublin's success is down to money.
Well it's easy to defeat that strawman.
Then he seems to do nothing to dissuade the reader from thinking he thinks none of Dublin's success is down to money.
The two positions - that none or all of Dublin' success is down to money should be dismissed out of hand.
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Post by Mickmack on Dec 20, 2020 15:24:30 GMT
Premium Even the most partisan Dublin fan knows deep down that the championship is very close to becoming a farce
Eamonn Sweeney
December 20 2020 02:30 AM Alas poor All-Ireland football championship. We knew it well, a competition of infinite jest and most excellent fancy. But now it's just a joke and yesterday's final was the punchline. It fell yet again to Mayo to try to save the competition's honour but, surpassingly and typically gallant though James Horan's men were, this decider was a foregone conclusion from the start.
Not once in the 70 minutes was there anything which suggested Dublin would not make it six in a row. There was nothing either to suggest they won't make it seven when the circus resumes in a few months' time. In the last three years they have only been troubled once and that fright in last year's final only came about because the champions had to play with a man short for over half the game.
If Dublin want to make it ten in a row, or a dozen, they will do so. They are bigger, stronger, fitter and faster than everyone else to an extent which makes them resemble a professional team taking on amateur opposition.
What role the county's enormous financial power has in enabling their preparation to outstrip everyone else's to such an extent must remain a matter for conjecture. But the greater their dominance the less glorious their victories seem to be.
Unless you're a Dublin fan. They revel in the current state of affairs as anyone from any county would do were the boot on their foot. You can't blame them for doing so but perhaps they might ease up on the gaslighting. The football championship has become indefensible and anyone trying to pretend otherwise comes across as either stupid or delusional.
How else can you describe Pat Gilroy's suggestion that other counties should band together to try and take on the Dubs? Even if Dessie Farrell's men really were vulnerable to some mighty alliance of Sligo, Roscommon and Leitrim it seems a bit much to ask counties to dissolve ancient historical rivalries just to take the bad look off things for Dublin.
ADVERTISEMENT Alan Brogan's lament that the GAA would lose its soul were Dublin broken into more than one unit is even more ludicrous. There are people in 31 other counties who think there's far more danger of that soul being lost because the most popular competition in the country has turned into an uncompetitive cakewalk. The idea that what's good for Dublin is good for the GAA is what got us into the current mess in the first place.
Brogan and Gilroy are not fools but people say strange things. And even the most partisan Dublin fan knows deep down that the championship is very close to becoming a farce.
How can the problem be solved? Cutting central funding to the county would probably affect underage players rather than a senior side which can always rely on business to pick up the tab. Splitting the county into three seems a more sensible proposition, but the GAA will never go down that route even though a competition based on county boundaries becomes ludicrous when one county is the size of a province.
Croke Park have admitted defeat when it comes to Dublin but sought to camouflage this by indulging in pointless chopping and changing which entirely fails to address the central crisis. Hence the forthcoming bull* two-tier championship masterminded by president John Horan.
Proponents of this pitiful plan like to intone the mantra: "There are counties out there which haven't a hope of ever winning an All-Ireland." But right now those counties include basically everyone else apart from Dublin.
The lopsided nature of things has also led to suggestions that the provincial championships be scrapped. But the provincial championships have never been more necessary than they are right now because they offer counties a chance of at least winning something when there's a metropolitan monopoly on the Sam Maguire.
The much vaunted Super 8 does little but add a few more pointless exercises for the Dubs to yawn their way through before proceeding to inevitable victory.
ADVERTISEMENT Defenders of the status quo will no doubt say that you can't make a judgement given the atypical nature of this year's competition.
Nonsense.
Who's shaping up to challenge the Dubs next year? The Kerry team which couldn't beat the Cork team which couldn't beat Tipperary? The Donegal team which couldn't beat the Cavan team which didn't belong on the same pitch as Dublin? Or even the Mayo team whose wonderful veterans can hardly keep coming back for much longer?
Dublin won this championship while playing well within themselves and giving the impression that they could have won all their games, yesterday's included, by much more if they really cut loose. They were able to waltz through Mayo and score a first goal after 13 seconds and respond to Mayo's best spell of the game, a stretch of five points without reply, with a Con O'Callaghan goal created and finished with breathtaking ease.
Reduced to 14 men for ten minutes at the start of the second half, they kept possession for long spells and looked under no pressure at all when doing so. This is not to denigrate Mayo, who as always were gutsy, intelligent and a credit to their county.
In another era the likes of Cillian O'Connor, Aidan O'Shea, Lee Keegan et al might have won as many All-Ireland medals as the players on the great Tyrone and Kerry teams of the noughties. But the landscape has changed and Mayo's challenge now possesses the same futile nobility as a cavalry charge in the age of tanks.
At times you wonder if the champions themselves are becoming slightly embarrassed by it all at this stage. There's been an odd bloodless feeling about their performances this year. Dublin play like a team which knows it's going to win. Who can blame them?
They now dominate the championship as a whole in the same way that they do Leinster. Not long ago their achievement of absolute provincial oligarchy was greeted by assurances from Croke Park that it wouldn't be long before Meath and Kildare were rising to the challenge and wresting back the trophy.
ADVERTISEMENT The opposite happened. Dublin's dominance led to the other Leinster teams essentially giving up the province as a bad job with the result that what was once the most competitive provincial championship became a virtual non-event.
It's likely the same process will take place at national level. Why commit to the enormous sacrifices required by inter-county football just so you can lose to Dublin by seven rather than 17 points?
If you want a picture of the future of the football championship, imagine a Dublin boot stamping on everyone else. Forever. There will be no suspense, no enjoyment of the process of the competition. All competing teams will be destroyed. But for Dublin fans, there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing. Always there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless.
We are all Leinster now.
Sunday Indo Sport
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Post by Mickmack on Dec 20, 2020 15:27:21 GMT
Eamonn Sweeney doesnt mention the option of counties simply refusing to play Dublin. That would be the perfect two fingers to the GAA. I hope it comes to pass.
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Post by Mickmack on Dec 22, 2020 13:09:54 GMT
Premium Quick turnaround may suit champions but Kerry remain short-term solution to Dublin conundrum
Colm Keys
December 21 2020 09:59 PM
However many possible Dublin and Mayo retirees will arise in the wake of Saturday night's All-Ireland football final, we're sure to have seen the last of a few of some of the titans of the past decade But as many as there would have been had the final be played in its (recent) traditional late August/early September or future third week in July date?
Not a chance. In just over three weeks' time, pre-season will officially begin when inter-county training is cleared to start on January 15, a six-week run-in to the start of a truncated league. It will be done and dusted in less than seven months' time.
Any player thinking of stepping off the treadmill now, whether they have eight All-Ireland medals or have tasted defeat in five All-Ireland finals, has to weigh that brevity up.
Seven months. In ‘old money’ that’s February in relation to a September All-Ireland final. Now obviously the season is much more compressed than what it once was but in terms of time, it’s likely to keep more involved than it is to move them on.
Seven months is not a long time either for the rest to go about bridging the considerable gap that exists to Dublin, a gap that appears, at first glance, to be growing on the back of this championship. The results would suggest so.
And in Brian Fenton, Ciarán Kilkenny, Con O’Callaghan and James McCarthy they have an outfield quartet that is above anything else in the game right now, Michael Murphy and David Clifford apart.
ADVERTISEMENT Beyond that quartet though, how might Dublin be in future years? For sure the same was said post the Brogans, Paul Flynn and Diarmuid Connolly. And they’ve come and gone, diluting any idea that this has been a once-in-a-generation team.
Fenton, Kilkenny and O’Callaghan can prosper for another few years but was the quality of new player that Dessie Farrell introduced this year as good as what his predecessor Jim Gavin could spring across 2017 and 2018 – O’Callaghan, Brian Howard and Niall Scully who hit a new peak on Saturday evening?
Looking further down the line was there an O’Callaghan or Howard among the U-20s that lost to Galway in Saturday’s All-Ireland final? Early days to be making that kind of assessment but the sense is a ‘no’ to both questions, not even Ciarán Archer.
Watching Dublin cruise to a sixth successive All-Ireland title in the last quarter on Saturday evening will have been more painful viewing for Kerry than it was even for Mayo or indeed any of the others in the chasing pack.
At least Mayo kept their side of the bargain.
Jonny Cooper shaking hands with Kerry’s David Clifford before last year’s All-Ireland final. Photo: Sportsfile They reclaimed a Connacht title for the first time in five years, they set about introducing new personnel that provides encouragement for the future while also weaning themselves off some of the stalwarts that have underpinned their challenges in recent seasons and they kept up their fine tradition of being competitive in an All-Ireland final once more. But they are still short on quality.
Kerry’s pain is compounded by Mark O’Connor’s recent revelation on Radio Kerry’s Terrace Talk show that he would have been available had they advanced past Cork in that Munster final.
ADVERTISEMENT While it’s expecting a lot for someone like O’Connor to get to the pitch of a game they have lost familiarity with, especially at Kerry’s level, the Dingle man was, with Clifford and Seán O’Shea, arguably the most talented of the players who were part of those five All-Ireland minor-winning sides that should be backing a more consistent Kingdom challenge at this stage.
In the long term, if he did become available again, he would provide a midfield option and even in the short term, a potential duel with Fenton on Saturday night would have been a great prospect, even if the advantage obviously lay with the more established Fenton.
The six-month season gives Kerry little time to dwell on any managerial concerns that may have surfaced. They simply have to put their best foot forward in the weeks and months ahead.
Tyrone should get a first year ‘bounce’ from new management and provided he is fit, an attack revolving around Cathal McShane with Darragh Canavan, Conor McKenna, Mattie Donnelly and possibly Lee Brennan, if the talented Trillick man returns, is an exciting prospect and basis for a good future.
In the short term, a solution to the Dublin conundrum will still come from Kerry, despite their shortcomings or possibly Tyrone. In the long term, that solution still rests with the GAA at central level.
How much of the €1.3m coaching and games development contribution could be shaved off over the next decade in the knowledge that self-sufficiency comes much more easily to many of their clubs who benefit than it does to those outside the M50?
The coaching framework will remain, it’s just that resources will have to be diverted away from other areas to cover it. And while such a scaling back would have no short-term impact on the national picture, it’s something most Dublin supporters, at this stage, would surely welcome, given the reaction it continues to generate.
If the same conversation is being had in a few years’ time, it might be too late.
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