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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Jun 25, 2019 6:28:51 GMT
Jeez, fairly sweeping changes. I think you are right, a few wouldn't agree Will JOD be ready for Donegal? Doubtful at this stage. Also, Shane Enright has never been the solution for us. He is talked of as a man marker but he has regularly been taken to the cleaners by those his assigned to man mark. I fail to see how bringing him back is going to solve our defensive problems? Jack Barry at centre back? I think Jack Barry has enough to be worrying about making the case for his preferred position rather than being thrown in somewhere he hasnt ever played before. What has Jack Sherwood done wrong to be dropped and replaced by Jack Barry?? Sherwood was in the Team of the League, played well in Clare until he had to come off at half time with an injury, played well the last night and is excellent on the ball unlike Jack Barry. He was very poor on Saturday- cant mark and was chasing shadows for most of the game. So much of Cork's chances, not just scores, came through his channel
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Derek
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Post by Derek on Jun 25, 2019 7:55:45 GMT
What has Jack Sherwood done wrong to be dropped and replaced by Jack Barry?? Sherwood was in the Team of the League, played well in Clare until he had to come off at half time with an injury, played well the last night and is excellent on the ball unlike Jack Barry. He was very poor on Saturday- cant mark and was chasing shadows for most of the game. So much of Cork's chances, not just scores, came through his channel Would you not think we've a bigger problem of defending as a team? The only goal that came down his channel was the penalty and was he meant to mark 4 or 5 cork players breaking from midfield on his own? We've had the same issue for 5 or 6 years when teams run at us so its hardly a Jack Sherwood issue. If you had Seamus Moyhihan back there and let 4 or 5 runners from midfield a free run at him I'm sure he'd struggle on occasion too...
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Post by dc84 on Jun 25, 2019 8:04:38 GMT
First goal was Morleys fault should have been minding the house instead 3 kerry lads went for the ball and left Connolly on his own in the square. Penalty was collective really too many runners and the thrid we all know.
On that two of the goals should be easily preventable from a throw in on the 21 Morley should man the house leave the contesting to others. Ryan should stay on his line for everything except ones within his small square. The hardest issue is where teams run at us this has to be collective every team will have an issue if there is an overlap we have to work harder on tracking runners and defenders need to learn when it's right to leave their man to cut off space and deny a goal chance if this means their man gets a handy point then so be it.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Jun 25, 2019 8:13:45 GMT
He was very poor on Saturday- cant mark and was chasing shadows for most of the game. So much of Cork's chances, not just scores, came through his channel Would you not think we've a bigger problem of defending as a team? The only goal that came down his channel was the penalty and was he meant to mark 4 or 5 cork players breaking from midfield on his own? We've had the same issue for 5 or 6 years when teams run at us so its hardly a Jack Sherwood issue. If you had Seamus Moyhihan back there and let 4 or 5 runners from midfield a free run at him I'm sure he'd struggle on occasion too... I do believe that there is an overall defensive issue but I also believe that your main covering man is your centre back as his very positioning can prevent teams even looking to play the ball in. Sean Cavanagh said there was a runway through the centre of our defence- he was the centre back
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Jun 25, 2019 8:16:56 GMT
First goal was Morleys fault should have been minding the house instead 3 kerry lads went for the ball and left Connolly on his own in the square. Penalty was collective really too many runners and the thrid we all know. First goal was Moran’s fault. A hop ball on your own 21? Don’t be stupid enough to try catch it- position lads to receive it and then just lead with the fist. It’s too high risk catching it- it’s like we don’t seen to be preparing for in game situations as a lot of the split second decisions- we seem to get wrong
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Derek
Senior Member
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Post by Derek on Jun 25, 2019 8:26:10 GMT
Would you not think we've a bigger problem of defending as a team? The only goal that came down his channel was the penalty and was he meant to mark 4 or 5 cork players breaking from midfield on his own? We've had the same issue for 5 or 6 years when teams run at us so its hardly a Jack Sherwood issue. If you had Seamus Moyhihan back there and let 4 or 5 runners from midfield a free run at him I'm sure he'd struggle on occasion too... I do believe that there is an overall defensive issue but I also believe that your main covering man is your centre back as his very positioning can prevent teams even looking to play the ball in. Sean Cavanagh said there was a runway through the centre of our defence- he was the centre back He'd want to be some size of a man to block a run way on his own is my point though, Look at Dublin v Meath they played 13 men behind the ball in their own half for most of that game. There's isn't a hope in hell Gavin would allow 3 or 4 runners run down on Cian O'Sullivan because he knows what the end result would be. Kerry for the last 15 mins played with those 12 or 13 men behind the ball and won the last 20 mins 7-3 by my calculations - showing if they defend in numbers like all the top teams and counter attack at pace with Tom Sullivan, White etc bursting out then using burns as a link man to find David/James etc inside we'll be a match for anyone. I don't think we can compete this year without getting numbers back. We did it throughout the league and we ended up in a league final, I think Jack would be a great fit in midfield but I don't think replacing the centre back will fix all our issues.
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Post by dc84 on Jun 25, 2019 8:30:41 GMT
First goal was Morleys fault should have been minding the house instead 3 kerry lads went for the ball and left Connolly on his own in the square. Penalty was collective really too many runners and the thrid we all know. First goal was Moran’s fault. A hop ball on your own 21? Don’t be stupid enough to try catch it- position lads to receive it and then just lead with the fist. It’s too high risk catching it- it’s like we don’t seen to be preparing for in game situations as a lot of the split second decisions- we seem to get wrong Would you not agree that a full backs first responsibility is to mind the house? I'm not having a go at Morley I really like him and think he had a good game other than that and will grow into the position. I guess time playing together is probably the main issue there is a lot of chopping and changing of positions hard to build the necessary trust in each other hence lads make rash decisions leading to mistakes
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 25, 2019 8:57:17 GMT
The positioning of Jack Sherwood at FB seemed to be working reasonably well during the league. Would people agree?
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peanuts
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Post by peanuts on Jun 25, 2019 9:23:47 GMT
The positioning of Jack Sherwood at FB seemed to be working reasonably well during the league. Would people agree? But he didn't really play as full back during the league even though he was named at 3. I thought Peter Crowley generally played at 3. Sherwood did play at 3 in the league final for part of it but was poor enough. I think he's better in the halfback line (as are almost all of our backs unfortunately). He did ok the last night but did misjudge a ball that went over his head in the leadup to the penalty (I think). Need more bodies back in general and tracking of runners better to stop the direct running. Otherwise the best centre back in the world wouldn't do.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Jun 25, 2019 10:00:57 GMT
I do believe that there is an overall defensive issue but I also believe that your main covering man is your centre back as his very positioning can prevent teams even looking to play the ball in. Sean Cavanagh said there was a runway through the centre of our defence- he was the centre back He'd want to be some size of a man to block a run way on his own is my point though, Look at Dublin v Meath they played 13 men behind the ball in their own half for most of that game. There's isn't a hope in hell Gavin would allow 3 or 4 runners run down on Cian O'Sullivan because he knows what the end result would be. Kerry for the last 15 mins played with those 12 or 13 men behind the ball and won the last 20 mins 7-3 by my calculations - showing if they defend in numbers like all the top teams and counter attack at pace with Tom Sullivan, White etc bursting out then using burns as a link man to find David/James etc inside we'll be a match for anyone. I don't think we can compete this year without getting numbers back. We did it throughout the league and we ended up in a league final, I think Jack would be a great fit in midfield but I don't think replacing the centre back will fix all our issues. I agree that he cant do it all by himself but he only made the problem worse at the weekend by allowing himself to be dragged out of position while more or less being a free man. Cork dropped a man back and gave us Sherwood as a sweeper so he was free ans still couldnt hold the centre- what are you looking for from your centre back if they aren't marking, aren't holding the centre and aren't going forward?
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Jun 25, 2019 10:03:18 GMT
The positioning of Jack Sherwood at FB seemed to be working reasonably well during the league. Would people agree? It worked well at times but he doesnt have the physicality to mark a Hurley, a McShane, a Michael Murphy (if he goes in there). Championship is a different biscuit altogether
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Jun 25, 2019 10:04:18 GMT
The positioning of Jack Sherwood at FB seemed to be working reasonably well during the league. Would people agree? But he didn't really play as full back during the league even though he was named at 3. I thought Peter Crowley generally played at 3. Sherwood did play at 3 in the league final for part of it but was poor enough. I think he's better in the halfback line (as are almost all of our backs unfortunately). He did ok the last night but did misjudge a ball that went over his head in the leadup to the penalty (I think). Need more bodies back in general and tracking of runners better to stop the direct running. Otherwise the best centre back in the world wouldn't do. But a centre back who is not marking needs to hold the centre - it's their most basic duty
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jun 25, 2019 10:08:52 GMT
The positioning of Jack Sherwood at FB seemed to be working reasonably well during the league. Would people agree? It worked well at times but he doesnt have the physicality to mark a Hurley, a McShane, a Michael Murphy (if he goes in there). Championship is a different biscuit altogether He's our most or second most physical back...
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Jun 25, 2019 10:13:48 GMT
It worked well at times but he doesnt have the physicality to mark a Hurley, a McShane, a Michael Murphy (if he goes in there). Championship is a different biscuit altogether He's our most or second most physical back... I know- it's worrying. Keane didnt back him to mark Hurley and rejigged our defence because of this
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Post by augustafield on Jun 25, 2019 11:19:51 GMT
With the greatest respect to Peter Keane and his management team is what we are seeing a case of cute hoorism in action ? PK knows as well or better than any of us where our teams faults lie and having regard to his success with the minors it’s strange that those faults , if anything , are not only still with us but worst .
We waltzed through the League , arguably unlucky not to score a last minute winning goal in the final , and played solid consistent football throughout and improved considerably on our previous years dismal defensive record . And now we are back to square one - or are we ?
We were aware that our Munster Championship opponents were very beatable . We cruised through the early part of the first half against Clare and had the game result wrapped up before half time . How could our team be convinced that Cork were a live threat - a Division three team that we walloped last year ? And the start we got must have reinforced the belief that this will be a training spin . Full marks to Cork for getting stuck in and full marks to our boys for standing up when the danger was greatest and we were down to 14 men . Cork players prostrate on the ground after the final whistle and our boys still fresh told its own story .
We have not seen anything like the best this team can produce and PK must be delighted with the bad press his charges are getting and Sean Cavanaghs comment on TSG is ideal motivation if such be needed .
Players being moved about being played out of position and indeed getting little game time is an exercise in testing the best formation for the tests ahead . Focus from Day 1 has been getting to the Super 8’s and now that has been achieved and whilst a semi final berth this year with such a young team would be deemed a success topping our group is not beyond the bounds of possibility and an easier semi final . After that who knows.
So don’t write us off so easily or so quickly . PK knows his football knows his players and most importantly knows what is required to succeed . He must be delighted at the feedback from Saturday’s result . Talk about coming under the radar .
And ye of little faith - if you are old enough - remember 1975 .....
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Post by colinsworth1 on Jun 25, 2019 11:59:31 GMT
Peter surely knows his football he has improved this team arguably although the real tests are only beginning now . He has found a few new promising players but is short three or four and that’s why we’re going to find it very hard going forward . If EF had excessive loyalty to his panel of players ( hard to get off the team etc. then I would argue that PK has unbalanced bias towards his minors that put him on the map this is at the expense of the stronger harder 23 to 28 yrs old that surely exist in Kerry somewhere . Donegal. and Dublin would devour us now if we met . Some things got to change our forwards can’t keep bailing us out for ever . We got hammered at 6 8 and 9 on Sunday and apart from some reshuffle of Positions I don’t see anyone proposing and good fixes here .
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pillar
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Post by pillar on Jun 25, 2019 12:43:07 GMT
When looking at the defence theres a couple of points..whether the media want to admit it or not their Dublin darlings play a blanket defence when they dont have the ball.The key part is when they lose the ball in any area of the field every player on the field becomes a defender.They either tackle or foul their way back and then the blanket is in place when their opponents attack.We may sometimes not be cynical enough to foul when the ball is turned over up the field but of course if you kill the ball every attack you make you can get set up again.
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Post by Attacking Wing Back on Jun 25, 2019 13:39:58 GMT
You cant blame Sherwood for the runners coming through our defense. Even if he was left as a spare man to play as sweeper he cant be expected to block everything.
A sweeper only works when there are adequate numbers back to give an overload. The sweeper gives the extra man and can cut out danger. Its predicated on the other defenders and the half forwards coming back actually being able to defend as well. There is only so much a sweeper can do. Contrary to popular believer the mere presence of the extra body doesn't stop runners. Its to stop good long ball going into the full back line.
Runners are stopped at source or by forcing them laterally across the pitch instead of straight down the middle. If Ruari Dean or McGuire leave Moran for dead in the middle of the park and come barreling down the middle what does Sherwood do?
Come to meet him around 30-40 yards out? A simple pop pass to a runner behind him and the centre opens up for the runner on his shoulder.
Stand his ground and you are meeting a fella coming at pace that can just pop the ball over the bar.
A sweeper only works when you have numbers back and or when the other backs can all defend their man reasonably well. A sweeper isn't a cure all its about minimizing the chances of being exposed.
When you have effectively 6 half backs playing in the backs with not one not to mind two man markers between them then the sweeper will be a help but, not a cure all.
Cian O'Sullivan does it so well for Dublin as their 3 fullbacks can all have realistic expectations of breaking even with their man.
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kerryexile
Fanatical Member
Whether you believe that you can, or that you can't, you are right anyway.
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Post by kerryexile on Jun 25, 2019 14:13:24 GMT
With the greatest respect to Peter Keane and his management team is what we are seeing a case of cute hoorism in action ? PK knows as well or better than any of us where our teams faults lie and having regard to his success with the minors it’s strange that those faults , if anything , are not only still with us but worst . We waltzed through the League , arguably unlucky not to score a last minute winning goal in the final , and played solid consistent football throughout and improved considerably on our previous years dismal defensive record . And now we are back to square one - or are we ? We were aware that our Munster Championship opponents were very beatable . We cruised through the early part of the first half against Clare and had the game result wrapped up before half time . How could our team be convinced that Cork were a live threat - a Division three team that we walloped last year ? And the start we got must have reinforced the belief that this will be a training spin . Full marks to Cork for getting stuck in and full marks to our boys for standing up when the danger was greatest and we were down to 14 men . Cork players prostrate on the ground after the final whistle and our boys still fresh told its own story . We have not seen anything like the best this team can produce and PK must be delighted with the bad press his charges are getting and Sean Cavanaghs comment on TSG is ideal motivation if such be needed . Players being moved about being played out of position and indeed getting little game time is an exercise in testing the best formation for the tests ahead . Focus from Day 1 has been getting to the Super 8’s and now that has been achieved and whilst a semi final berth this year with such a young team would be deemed a success topping our group is not beyond the bounds of possibility and an easier semi final . After that who knows. So don’t write us off so easily or so quickly . PK knows his football knows his players and most importantly knows what is required to succeed . He must be delighted at the feedback from Saturday’s result . Talk about coming under the radar . And ye of little faith - if you are old enough - remember 1975 ..... Are you saying they were "Fluting Around".
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Post by Attacking Wing Back on Jun 25, 2019 14:37:50 GMT
I for one second don't buy this argument that we are keeping something up our sleeve as it were. I think its lazy analysis.
We already have a solution we saw it last Saturday night once Geaney got the line. Play a blanket with men behind the ball and break at pace. Keep a link man and 2 inside forwards up the pitch.
We did it against Mayo in the league final, we did it against Dublin in Tralee. We saw an extreme of it against Tyrone in Killarney this year. Its not rocket science.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jun 25, 2019 14:44:31 GMT
I for one second don't buy this argument that we are keeping something up our sleeve as it were. I think its lazy analysis. We already have a solution we saw it last Saturday night once Geaney got the line. Play a blanket with men behind the ball and break at pace. Keep a link man and 2 inside forwards up the pitch. We did it against Mayo in the league final, we did it against Dublin in Tralee. We saw an extreme of it against Tyrone in Killarney this year. Its not rocket science. I agree that we are not keeping something magic up our sleeve but I am still scarred from Mayo 2017 and Galway 2018 last year. When Kerry go negative things do not go well. It was an age ago with a totally different team but I would rather the 2013 SF performance rather than anything negative. I don't have the answers but the blanket isn't it in my book.
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 25, 2019 15:09:59 GMT
I for one second don't buy this argument that we are keeping something up our sleeve as it were. I think its lazy analysis. We already have a solution we saw it last Saturday night once Geaney got the line. Play a blanket with men behind the ball and break at pace. Keep a link man and 2 inside forwards up the pitch. We did it against Mayo in the league final, we did it against Dublin in Tralee. We saw an extreme of it against Tyrone in Killarney this year. Its not rocket science. I agree that we are not keeping something magic up our sleeve but I am still scarred from Mayo 2017 and Galway 2018 last year. When Kerry go negative things do not go well. It was an age ago with a totally different team but I would rather the 2013 SF performance rather than anything negative. I don't have the answers but the blanket isn't it in my book. yeah but Dublin were wide open at the back that day. It was a shootout at the OK CROKE PARK. Donegal in 2014 put a stop to that approach by Jim Gavin.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jun 25, 2019 15:12:03 GMT
I agree that we are not keeping something magic up our sleeve but I am still scarred from Mayo 2017 and Galway 2018 last year. When Kerry go negative things do not go well. It was an age ago with a totally different team but I would rather the 2013 SF performance rather than anything negative. I don't have the answers but the blanket isn't it in my book. yeah but Dublin were wide open at the back that day. It was a shootout at the OK CROKE PARK. Donegal in 2014 put a stop to that approach by Jim Gavin. This is correct.
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Post by Attacking Wing Back on Jun 25, 2019 15:56:55 GMT
I think the reason we were so poor against Galway last year and Mayo in the 17 replay wasnt the actual tactic of playing men behind the ball. It was our lack of a plan to transition out of defense. It was a kind of hope and see especially against Mayo in 17.
Added to the fact in 17 we dropped JOD for a half back. Essentially the only scoring forward on the pitch that day was PG. Last year against Galway was the same. When we turned over the ball we didnt attack at pace we meandered our way up the pitch. There is no point playing the blanket unless you attack at speed by either long kicking (not an option against a packed defense) or running with support.
With Tom O'Sullivan, Gavin White, Moynihan, O'Brien you would think we have the runner and hopefully Clifford and AN Other inside.
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Post by buck02 on Jun 25, 2019 16:00:40 GMT
On the Sherwood issue, what I would say about it is that I would be more worried about the belief we needed him to sit in front of a full forward line containing Mark Collins and Brian Hurley and didnt trust Foley and Morley to go man to man with them.
Sherwood doing that (and I assume being instructed to do that) allowed White (I think) to be the spare man and he continuously was the spare man driving forward in the middle. Sherwood came out a couple of time to try meet a man and the ball was popped over his head, other times the runners had the momentum and just went past him.
Now I know he negated Kerrigan but I would have pushed Tom Sullivan around midfield picking up Corks spare man and had Sherwood on Kerrigan.
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Post by colinsworth1 on Jun 25, 2019 16:06:43 GMT
When we have two holding midfielders which we have then your always going to draw the opposing midfielders on you Cork MF launched many attack most notably Killian O Hanlon s Run to goal early in second half Why did they keep attacking us ? Because they had no defending to do when is the last time out MF threatened to score when is the last time they crossed the 45 !! Right now our MF is no threat and so your always going to have 8 or 9 V. Our six defenders and this is not sustainable against the better teams Our MF are neither defending or attacking enough and it’s not their fault They are just not up to it against the super athletes now that are playing on those slots now for other counties if we don’t have them that’s fine but if they are there let’s look to get them on board Otherwise rob peter to Pay Paul within our 20 or panelists and think outside the box a bit
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Post by taibhse on Jun 25, 2019 16:17:26 GMT
When we have two holding midfielders which we have then your always going to draw the opposing midfielders on you Cork MF launched many attack most notably Killian O Hanlon s Run to goal early in second half Why did they keep attacking us ? Because they had no defending to do when is the last time out MF threatened to score when is the last time they crossed the 45 !! Right now our MF is no threat and so your always going to have 8 or 9 V. Our six defenders and this is not sustainable against the better teams Our MF are neither defending or attacking enough and it’s not their fault They are just not up to it against the super athletes now that are playing on those slots now for other counties if we don’t have them that’s fine but if they are there let’s look to get them on board Otherwise rob peter to Pay Paul within our 20 or panelists and think outside the box a bit A straight switch between Gavin White and Jack Barry would address most of our issues.
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 25, 2019 16:19:31 GMT
I think the reason we were so poor against Galway last year and Mayo in the 17 replay wasnt the actual tactic of playing men behind the ball. It was our lack of a plan to transition out of defense. It was a kind of hope and see especially against Mayo in 17. Added to the fact in 17 we dropped JOD for a half back. Essentially the only scoring forward on the pitch that day was PG. Last year against Galway was the same. When we turned over the ball we didnt attack at pace we meandered our way up the pitch. There is no point playing the blanket unless you attack at speed by either long kicking (not an option against a packed defense) or running with support. With Tom O'Sullivan, Gavin White, Moynihan, O'Brien you would think we have the runner and hopefully Clifford and AN Other inside. Both of those games were saveable till we went down to 14 men. Both Mayo and Galway were too streetwise not to capitslise on that when it came to kickouts by both keepers. Not so with Cork last saturday. White of Cork raffled a kickout up the middle in injury time and Gavin Crowley won the breaking ball.. i think this led to a point. It was a game changer and not good enough at this level from Cork.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jun 25, 2019 16:25:37 GMT
I think the reason we were so poor against Galway last year and Mayo in the 17 replay wasnt the actual tactic of playing men behind the ball. It was our lack of a plan to transition out of defense. It was a kind of hope and see especially against Mayo in 17. Added to the fact in 17 we dropped JOD for a half back. Essentially the only scoring forward on the pitch that day was PG. Last year against Galway was the same. When we turned over the ball we didnt attack at pace we meandered our way up the pitch. There is no point playing the blanket unless you attack at speed by either long kicking (not an option against a packed defense) or running with support. With Tom O'Sullivan, Gavin White, Moynihan, O'Brien you would think we have the runner and hopefully Clifford and AN Other inside. Both of those games were saveable till we went down to 14 men. Both Mayo and Galway were too streetwise not to capitslise on that when it came to kickouts by both keepers. Not so with Cork last saturday. White of Cork raffled a kickout up the middle in injury time and Gavin Crowley won the breaking ball.. i think this led to a point. It was a game changer and not good enough at this level from Cork. I appreciate that both of those games could have been won but right from the throw in Kerry were lacklustre in those games: it was instant.
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Post by ballhopper34 on Jun 25, 2019 16:35:23 GMT
Kieran Donaghy on OTB AM has some good words here. From 4 mins on he talks about the backs and direct running at the Kerry backs - Kerry don't defend running in training because of the way Kerry played themselves, with focus on kick passing. Also, from about 9 mins in to 13 mins he talks about protecting the middle of the pitch and send opposing runners/ball carriers down the wings.
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