|
Post by southward on Aug 13, 2018 19:35:51 GMT
Article is somewhat incomplete, to say the least. For instance, the following statements:
"They (Mitchels) always produced a very particular type of player for Kerry, Joe Keohane being just one of many. That should be remembered when examining the overall state of Kerry football and its future." What type of player is that and how how does he propose to resurrect same?
"To tackle the county team, examine the club game from within and address any discrepancies there might be, particularly in Tralee, to harness that particular super-power once more." What does this mean? Address what discrepancies exactly, and how?
I'm sure Paul has forgotten more about the game than I'll ever know but this is just waffle.
Was Fionn not the nominated captain this year?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2018 19:41:36 GMT
Yes, fionn was the nominated captain. I would love Paul to tell us what type of player Joe Keohane was
|
|
|
Post by derry4sam on Aug 13, 2018 22:56:54 GMT
I think midfield is our biggest problem and we don't to seem have one outstanding option coming through. Who would people like to see having a chance there? Adrian Spillane? Roibeard O'Sé? Kieran Murphy? Eanna O'Conchuir? Barry O'Sullivan? None of the above for me ! Think we have to look at developing a different type of midfielder to adapt to the modern game - Okunbar, Diarmuid O’Connor, Daniel O’Brien, Mike Breen - all guys with plenty of pace who can compete in the air but also mobile - Breen did a job @ midfield with the minors a few years back, worth having a look at the others too. Of all of the above, Diarmuid O’Connor I believe has the most potential but was disappointing with the U-20s this year. Couldn't agree more greengold. The days of the big fella hanging between the 45's is long gone The two Na Gaeil boys mentioned above are perhaps our best hopes
|
|
|
Post by dc84 on Aug 14, 2018 7:35:06 GMT
History has a habit of repeating itself, but I hope that our new manager can learn from the mistakes of the past. Some of the mistakes not to remake are: 1. Wholesale clearing out of established players from the panel. Many managers (both club & county) have done this and to my mind, it has nearly always been a failed approach. Naturally, one or two may go, but we need experience, especially at county training. 2. Give young players ample time to develop. The U-20 championship is the best place for this. 3. Ensure all players get ample game time - if that can't be done with the county team, then they should be encouraged to play more matches with their clubs. 4. Don't throw in too many new players at one time. Start with a team, probably close to the team that played Kildare, and do changes incrementally. 5. Devise plans for (a) attacking, (b) defending (c) kick-outs. There should be at least 2 plans for each. 6. When players are recovering from an injury, don't rush them back. Gradually re-introduce them as subs. As I said, history repeats itself, but I hope that we as supporters can: 1. Give the new management time to bed in. That may take a couple of years and we may be relegated or lose our Munster crown in the interim. 2. If possible, support & encourage the team. Monaghan supporters were an extreme example of this, where they continued to support the team even in & after that surprise defeat to Fermanagh. 3. Don't expect us to win every match. Yes, be optimistic, but also be realistic. 4. Appreciate what we've got. Eamonn took a job nobody wanted and delivered an All-Ireland title. The players give of their time and energy to represent us on the pitch, when it would be very easy to pack it in and criticize from the stands. On your first point cork did a whole sale clearout in 13? I think and look where that got them they have traditionally been a top 5 -10 team and are now so low as to not matter the hurling strike did the sane put them back 10 years i dont see any need for a clearout maybe three lads will retire thats all. I doubt either of your scenarios above will happen ie losing munster, we are far superior than cork and this will only get bigger getting out of super 8s and a better league would be a good start next year imo.
|
|
Jigz84
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,017
|
Post by Jigz84 on Aug 14, 2018 8:36:01 GMT
Did anyone come across a Paul Galvin piece over the weekend? Some of it was discussed on Newstalk such as the problem with the Kerry captaincy. Club game needs an overhaul to harness talent in Kerry, Paul Galvin August 12 2018, Firing off letters to inter-county managers is obviously something of a national pastime for Irish folk these days. Limerick hurling manager John Kiely was first to follow up on Eamonn Fitzmaurice’s revelations surrounding anonymous mails received over the summer. John’s wife safe-checks his post to spare him from any unsavoury elements. A clever deflection away from his players given his request after Limerick’s semi-final win for the media to leave them alone in the build-up to the All-Ireland final. Anthony Daly relived his own experiences from his time in charge of Clare’s hurlers, albeit tongue-in-cheek. Finding the penman’s identity and calling him up was a tonic. Wouldn’t you love to have been a fly on that wall? Former Mayo boss James Horan had to enlist the help of the Gardai. It’s hard to know what to make of the whole thing. It’s very common and very cowardly, and the anonymity leaves a sour taste. Kerry have other problems to contend with. We are in the midst of this decade’s existential crisis. Every 10 years or so all the looking backwards catches up on us. You could call it legacy thinking. Take the captaincy situation this year. It’s funny to think Kerry still appoint captains on the basis of who wins the county championship. This reveals a major flaw in the operation. When the heat came this summer there was no go-to player-lieutenant able to steady the ship through experience and leadership. For two crucial games — Monaghan and Kildare — this year’s nominated captain, Dr Crokes’s keeper Shane Murphy, was on the bench. His clubmate and nominated vice-captain Gavin White took up the mantle. In their debut seasons they have eight championship starts between them. This practice is no help to a manager and has to change quickly. Kerry need the same captain for the next five years at least. We’re also sharing our head of athletic performance with the Limerick hurlers. A surmountable issue but one that needs attention nonetheless. Another issue worth examining in Kerry football is the club game. Tralee, has four teams competing for players across a small urban area of 22,000 people with a further three satellite teams within three miles of the town centre. Austin Stacks is one of the great clubs nationally, and one with a realistic chance of winning a county championship or an All-Ireland title any year given their history, but their county title in 2014 was their first since 1994. Kerins O’ Rahillys have a strong tradition of producing great county players but they haven’t won a county title since 2002. John Mitchels has a rich history of producing Kerry players and winning county titles, but haven’t won a county championship since 1966 or produced an All-Ireland winning Kerry player for a long time. There are conflicting views around the foundation of Na Gaeil. Some say the club was set up initially to be the juvenile arm of the Mitchels club, but instead went it alone. Others say it was formed independently by guards. Either way neither club are capable of competing for senior county titles and Tralee town has won two county senior titles in 24 years. The satellite clubs around Tralee — St Pats Blennerville (a mile from the town centre) Churchill and Ballymacelligott (both three miles) are barely surviving. Any more than three strong clubs in a town of Tralee’s size doesn’t help the clubs themselves nor the county. As it stands two Tralee teams compete at senior county championship level, the rest are scattered between lower grades. Seven clubs (Tralee is the 14th biggest urban area in Ireland) all fighting for players with the result that nearly all of them are uncompetitive. Dr Crokes have been the dominant team in Kerry for 10 years. Austin Stacks and Kerins O’Rahillys have struggled to compete with them, but Mitchels are the most useful case study. Tralee John Mitchels were the original Tralee team, so successful they were disbanded in 1927 giving us today’s big three town teams. They always produced a very particular type of player for Kerry, Joe Keohane being just one of many. That should be remembered when examining the overall state of Kerry football and its future. Kerry football needs Tralee football at its optimum and work needs to be done at board level to help its clubs achieve that level. Closer to home my own club Finuge have major work to do to re-establish ourselves as a consistent breeding ground for Kerry footballers. We too produced a particular type of Kerry player but the supply chain isn’t working. These are just some issues I see. To tackle the county team, examine the club game from within and address any discrepancies there might be, particularly in Tralee, to harness that particular super-power once more. The next appointments the Kerry executive make will resound for a decade but time spent thinking about new ways make the club game more competitive will resound for much longer. For now the writers are resounding loudest of all. Thank you! I agree with the captaincy but his point on the clubs is hard to comprehend.
|
|
|
Post by glengael on Aug 14, 2018 9:11:05 GMT
I'd say Paul had to find a fresh angle and the club scene was it. He was possibly counting on the majority of Sunday Times readers being somewhat unfamiliar with the Kerry Club scene.
He wasn't ever going to be writing an objective analysis of the outgoing management team so he had to go with something else.
|
|
|
Post by dc84 on Aug 14, 2018 9:17:48 GMT
As above totally agree on captaincy who would you pick? Hard to know as we dont know the personalities involved moran would be the obvious pick (although i know a lot dont rate him i do as it happens) other than that Paul Geaney or Donaghy
|
|
kerryexile
Fanatical Member
Whether you believe that you can, or that you can't, you are right anyway.
Posts: 1,108
|
Post by kerryexile on Aug 14, 2018 11:01:23 GMT
I think that Paul bit off more than he could chew with this one.
The reference to Mitchels is confusing. I don't remember them having a good team but they were always regarded as a club that produced small, fast skillful footballers. He then mentions Joe Keohane as "one of many". He was the very player that broke the rule. He was a big muscular full back.
Looks like an article he cobbled together when he couldn't talk about the current topic.
|
|
|
Post by Mickmack on Aug 14, 2018 11:20:59 GMT
Mitchells had a great team in the 60s
|
|
|
Post by dc84 on Aug 14, 2018 11:45:11 GMT
I was of the understanding its more to do with demographics in tralee thats why na gael seem to be on the up ? Id rather it that way (more clubs) than say portlaoise with one more teams = more players which is good in my book
|
|
|
Post by Mickmack on Aug 14, 2018 12:07:19 GMT
Paul could have looked north to Listowel...one club with 4000 people.
|
|
|
Post by dc84 on Aug 14, 2018 12:21:18 GMT
The league table was interesting this year when you see how the championship turned out. 7 of the 8 in qfs were d1,with d2 champs ros instead of mayo (who had poor league 3rd last) and along with Kildare were the worst. we were average in both. Understandable last year but we are slightly more settled now you could pick probably +8 players at this stage Foley,o sullivan, white, murphy, moran, barry (unless someone really steps up) o shea geaney, clifford and probables o donoghue, crowley, burns, o brien.
|
|
|
Post by listowelemerrs on Aug 14, 2018 13:07:14 GMT
Mitchells are kings of tralee. Paul has a point. Club football in Kerry has been better before.
|
|
|
Post by veteran on Aug 14, 2018 13:44:30 GMT
John Mitchell’s won five in a row , 1959-1963. I think they may have won another later in the sixties , Nothing since, remarkable. They were unquestionably the best club side I have seen in Kerry. A huge regret of mine is that there was no formal All -Ireland club competition back then. There wetr informal matches played by the likes of themselves , St. Vincent’s in Dublin, Dunmore McHales and Tuam Stars in Galway.
As a young North Kerry man I hated them for their invincibility, and invincible they were. At that time North Kerry fielded one team in the championship and had stars like Jerh. D. O’Connor, Dan McAulliffe, Garry McMahon, Bernie O’Callaghan, South Kerry had Mick O’Connell, Mick O’Dwyer , Jerome O’Shea. West Kerry had Tom Long, Sean and Seamus Murphy. Mid Kerry had Noel and Jimmy Lucey, Pat Aherne, Pat Griffin. All those teams had terrific matches with the Mitchell’s . All to no avail. Invariably I came home broken-hearted. Anybody but the Mitchell’s. But it was always the Mitchell’s. Simlply invincible.
John Joe Sheehy was a Kerry legend back in the twenties/thirties. Four of his sons were on that all conquering team- Paudie, Niall, Brian and Sean og. All top of the range.They had the O’Shea brothers, John Thorny and Derry. Flying forwards who had the unhappy distinction of being sent off in the 1965 All-Ireland final. They had Dom O’Donnell, Seamus Roche, Harry Burke, Teddy O’Dowd, Alan Conway etc. I can remember the names as if it was last week I saw them in action. . At that time we thought we would never see the end of them. Everybody longed to see them beaten such was their stranglehold in the county. But everybody also recognized they were nonpareil. After all these years I am now prepared to forgive them for all the pain they inflicted on the rest of the county because in the heel of the hunt I was lucky enough to see them play.
|
|
keane
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,267
|
Post by keane on Aug 14, 2018 13:50:54 GMT
Imagine how good Kerry would have been that time if Strand Road and the Rock were in with Mitchels as well
|
|
|
Post by Mickmack on Aug 14, 2018 13:56:24 GMT
John Mitchell’s won five in a row , 1959-1963. I think they may have won another later in the sixties , Nothing since, remarkable. They were unquestionably the best club side I have seen in Kerry. A huge regret of mine is that there was no formal All -Ireland club competition back then. There wetr informal matches played by the likes of themselves , St. Vincent’s in Dublin, Dunmore McHales and Tuam Stars in Galway. As a young North Kerry man I hated them for their invincibility, and invincible they were. At that time North Kerry fielded one team in the championship and had stars like Jerh. D. O’Connor, Dan McAulliffe, Garry McMahon, Bernie O’Callaghan, South Kerry had Mick O’Connell, Mick O’Dwyer , Jerome O’Shea. West Kerry had Tom Long, Sean and Seamus Murphy. Mid Kerry had Noel and Jimmy Lucey, Pat Aherne, Pat Griffin. All those teams had terrific matches with the Mitchell’s . All to no avail. Invariably I came home broken-hearted. Anybody but the Mitchell’s. But it was always the Mitchell’s. Simlply invincible. John Joe Sheehy was a Kerry legend back in the twenties/thirties. Four of his sons were on that all conquering team- Paudie, Niall, Brian and Sean og. All top of the range.They had the O’Shea brothers, John Thorny and Derry. Flying forwards who had the unhappy distinction of being sent off in the 1965 All-Ireland final. They had Dom O’Donnell, Seamus Roche, Harry Burke, Teddy O’Dowd, Alan Conway etc. I can remember the names as if it was last week I saw them in action. . At that time we thought we would never see the end of them. Everybody longed to see them beaten such was their stranglehold in the county. But everybody also recognized they were nonpareil. After all these years I am now prepared to forgive them for all the pain they inflicted on the rest of the county because in the heel of the hunt I was lucky enough to see them play. Did Mick Morris feature then or was he too young for that team
|
|
|
Post by veteran on Aug 14, 2018 15:06:14 GMT
Mick , I don’t think Mick Morris featured. Perhaps , in the 1963.. He would have been very young. Mick was a marvelous corner back. Kerry won the All-Ireland in 1962 and had to wait until 1969 for the next one. In those barren years, players like Mick , Donie O’Sullvan, Denis O’Sullivan , Mick Fleming , Pat Griffin carried the team on their backs with little or no reward. Indeed , Denis O’Sullivan and Mick Fleming were not around in 1969 to win a medal. A pity.
Mick got his medal in 1969. He had opted out in 1970 when Kerry completed the two in a row. As far as I can recall he had some falling out with the county board. Kerry toured Australia that spring . The guys working were compensated for loss of wages and Mick who was a student in UCC sought some compensation as well but was refused. That is my memory of it anyway. Accordingly, he missed out in 1970 but it opened the door for a rising star by the name of John O’Keeffe. As far as I remember Johns was minor the previous year, captaining St. Brendan’s College to Hogan cup victory?. As young was he was he distinguished himself at CHB in 1970.
Mick Morris of course was a star golfer, representing Ireland on several occasions in the amateur ranks.
|
|
|
Post by gawksiegorman on Aug 14, 2018 15:32:28 GMT
To my mind Paul's article is absolutely on the nail (minus maybe the Mitchel's type of player) and raises some excellent points. To dismiss it as waffle, or a page filler suggests that much thought wasn't put into some replies - in my view.
Is there a GAA plan for the biggest area in Kerry and the 14th biggest urban area in Ireland ?, or is it one of "It will be all right , they have a population so they can't fail " ? -(rhetorical question) The follow on to Paul's questions is that large urban areas have defined problems from a societal, sporting and specific GAA viewpoint - just as depopulation is the key factor in many rural areas. These problems need to addressed with foresight and long term planning in mind. Portlaoise and Naas , for example, have done this planning and are generally happy with the one club situation - and are thriving (just look at the Naas facilities, setup and longer term planning). The link with local schools is extremely strong , as they are dealing with one entity (for the most part) and there is a unified response to the threats of other sports. In areas where there are multiple clubs (Tralee being one), links with local primary schools is much diluted as principals are afraid of any perceived favouritism. On the secondary front, large urban areas such as Tralee have seen the rise of mega primary and second level complexes. Regarding the latter, it is increasingly the case that GAA is 3rd or 4th on the sporting pecking order. In addition, it wasn't too many years ago that Tralee had a small handful of adult teams in the Kerry Soccer Leagues - this is now into double digits and rising , particularly as many are easier "turn up an play, no real training" setups, as opposed to the demands of senior GAA teams. The facilities in Mounthawk Park are a sight to behold and are being added to with each passing year. Look at what is coming down the line with summer soccer , directly making juveniles make choices earlier and earlier in their careers..signing 2 yr contracts as young as 14 is and will be the norm. Large urban areas have generally tended to be the soccer heartland, and whilst this is not always the case, is the greatest rising threat to the GAA in areas such as Tralee.
The above doesn't even address the issue of well higher than average unemployment rates, with ensuing social problems....all issues that clubs in urban sprawl areas (not uniquely obviously, but more consistently) have to work with.
The issue isn't the number of clubs - that can't be reversed. What is the issue, and the key take away to my mind from the article, is that is should provoke thought in all Kerry GAA people as to how, not whether, an area of 25k + plus people should be best supported , assisted and maximised for the benefit of the GAA. Does it make sense, for example, to have large clubs in these areas, who are in net effect those in the daily front line in the battle to keep and attract young people to the GAA, under the constant threat of loosing their senior status every April (since the move to 8 in the Club Championship came into being ? - is it the best long term plan to have the possibility of Ireland's 14th largest area with no senior football team within 2 years - given all the above influences is that a good thing for the GAA as a whole ? It makes things even more and more difficult to attract bodies if that is the case, rather than reading a stream of "football in Kerry's capital hits a new low" etc ?
Areas like Tralee need long term planning and Paul's article, to my mind, is the key conversation starter in that. Every GAA area has problems, depolulation being key in many many clubs, however longer term urban planning is key, because without it, when we fully realise that we should have done something, it will be too late...and we are definitely on that road already.
|
|
|
Post by piggott on Aug 14, 2018 15:38:41 GMT
I suppose at that time all the Mitchell's players lived in the Boherbue area and grew up together. Same with Rock Street in 1920's and 1930's. Tralee has a very large population now but it seems they are spread out and diverse. Tralee clubs should take a leaf out of Dr Crokes book. They have vast numbers and their Div 3 side is every bit as good as Div 1 side. That took hard work.
|
|
|
Post by Mickmack on Aug 14, 2018 17:08:45 GMT
Goalkeeper is a big issue. That has to get sorted out. Shane Ryan possibly. Nicky Quaid, the Limerick goalie is their key man. Every lazer puckout launches an attack. His save v Cork at the death was brilliant and won it for Limerick. I was told today that he plays at CHB for his club Effin.
|
|
|
Post by Mickmack on Aug 14, 2018 17:35:01 GMT
To my mind Paul's article is absolutely on the nail (minus maybe the Mitchel's type of player) and raises some excellent points. To dismiss it as waffle, or a page filler suggests that much thought wasn't put into some replies - in my view. Is there a GAA plan for the biggest area in Kerry and the 14th biggest urban area in Ireland ?, or is it one of "It will be all right , they have a population so they can't fail " ? -(rhetorical question) The follow on to Paul's questions is that large urban areas have defined problems from a societal, sporting and specific GAA viewpoint - just as depopulation is the key factor in many rural areas. These problems need to addressed with foresight and long term planning in mind. Portlaoise and Naas , for example, have done this planning and are generally happy with the one club situation - and are thriving (just look at the Naas facilities, setup and longer term planning). The link with local schools is extremely strong , as they are dealing with one entity (for the most part) and there is a unified response to the threats of other sports. In areas where there are multiple clubs (Tralee being one), links with local primary schools is much diluted as principals are afraid of any perceived favouritism. On the secondary front, large urban areas such as Tralee have seen the rise of mega primary and second level complexes. Regarding the latter, it is increasingly the case that GAA is 3rd or 4th on the sporting pecking order. In addition, it wasn't too many years ago that Tralee had a small handful of adult teams in the Kerry Soccer Leagues - this is now into double digits and rising , particularly as many are easier "turn up an play, no real training" setups, as opposed to the demands of senior GAA teams. The facilities in Mounthawk Park are a sight to behold and are being added to with each passing year. Look at what is coming down the line with summer soccer , directly making juveniles make choices earlier and earlier in their careers..signing 2 yr contracts as young as 14 is and will be the norm. Large urban areas have generally tended to be the soccer heartland, and whilst this is not always the case, is the greatest rising threat to the GAA in areas such as Tralee. The above doesn't even address the issue of well higher than average unemployment rates, with ensuing social problems....all issues that clubs in urban sprawl areas (not uniquely obviously, but more consistently) have to work with. The issue isn't the number of clubs - that can't be reversed. What is the issue, and the key take away to my mind from the article, is that is should provoke thought in all Kerry GAA people as to how, not whether, an area of 25k + plus people should be best supported , assisted and maximised for the benefit of the GAA. Does it make sense, for example, to have large clubs in these areas, who are in net effect those in the daily front line in the battle to keep and attract young people to the GAA, under the constant threat of loosing their senior status every April (since the move to 8 in the Club Championship came into being ? - is it the best long term plan to have the possibility of Ireland's 14th largest area with no senior football team within 2 years - given all the above influences is that a good thing for the GAA as a whole ? It makes things even more and more difficult to attract bodies if that is the case, rather than reading a stream of "football in Kerry's capital hits a new low" etc ? Areas like Tralee need long term planning and Paul's article, to my mind, is the key conversation starter in that. Every GAA area has problems, depolulation being key in many many clubs, however longer term urban planning is key, because without it, when we fully realise that we should have done something, it will be too late...and we are definitely on that road already. two ways of looking at it. 1..why do "oneclub-onetown" clubs fare poorly enough.... 2...would Killarney be doing more for kerry football if there were 4 clubs in the town like in Tralee Just posing the questions...
|
|
mandad
Senior Member
Posts: 448
|
Post by mandad on Aug 14, 2018 18:49:48 GMT
Effectively there are four clubs in Killarney - Crokes, Legion, Spa and Fossa. Four excellent clubs with very good facilities and producing top class players.
|
|
|
Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 14, 2018 19:32:26 GMT
The argument that reducing participation will lead to better outcomes falls down under any kind of scrutiny.
Simple example of players who weren’t very good at underage level but went on to be good intercounty players mainly due to participation levels being high in Tralee:
Donaghy Mick Quirke Daniel Bohan
And these are all in the last 10 or so years!
You have one club in a town the size of tralee and you lose a whole pile of athletes and players who develop after the age of 14.
To be honest- the argument that having one tralee club will improve Kerry is as ludicrous as it is idiotic.
Go write an article that analyses Kerry’s tactical failures over the last 18 months (and how this led to our coach getting the bullet) like a good lad Paul. The facts are all there so you won’t need to be dealing in ridiculous hypotheticals like this most recent piece of drivel
|
|
|
Post by Attacking Wing Back on Aug 14, 2018 20:03:48 GMT
Sure ballymac are more or less mid table in division 2 this year and have supplied 2 starters to the u20 team against Kildare this year.
Had a few panel members as well for the minors the last few years. It's not the organisation of clubs that's the problem it's the organisation of club football or lack of it for some players.
Does galvin want a Tralee super team? What purpose would that serve? It would mean even less lads exposed to club football senior county championship.
|
|
|
Post by kerrybhoy06 on Aug 14, 2018 20:16:00 GMT
What tralee needs is clearly defined catchment areas per club. That would be a huge step forward
|
|
|
Post by gaelicden on Aug 20, 2018 17:44:53 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 20, 2018 17:48:58 GMT
A very poorly designed survey I must say.
|
|
|
Post by Attacking Wing Back on Aug 20, 2018 19:26:35 GMT
Just filled in the survey. Looks very cheap survey. They could have used a customised Google form at least.
Green and gold army seems another shake down for money. For a few half assed newsletter or player videos. Pay 50 Euro for access to all Ireland tickets o suppose will be the idea.
If they don't get the right man in place for next year they won't have enough subscribers for a gang not to mind an army
|
|
|
Post by glengael on Aug 20, 2018 19:49:46 GMT
A token consultative exercise or a genuine attempt to reconnect with fans? It looks very rushed alright. Maybe it's to give the interview panel some ideas for questions for candidates for the Big Job.
The irony of an anonymous survey after all the furore about anonymous communications...
|
|
|
Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 20, 2018 20:37:04 GMT
My hope is that it might have been conducted by a student on placement.
|
|