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Post by An Bradán on Apr 18, 2018 21:34:34 GMT
Ok so then.
This discussion is for poking a beady eye at the areas of Kerry that are underperforming on the football front.
My argument on a different thread was that NK football was in a very poor state for various reasons. No great players in the division and certainly no great teams at present.
I say NK football is in crisis.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Apr 18, 2018 21:53:57 GMT
Perhaps it would be better were potential solutions pointed out?
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 18, 2018 22:16:50 GMT
If you identify the problems you are more likely to come up with solutions perhaps.
Listowel is a big town of 4000 with no hurling.
Was if a senior club at one stage?
Its the only big town though in NK.
I remember being at a county final between Feale Rangers and Shannon Rangers in the seventies.
Apart from Listowel, the rest of the clubs are small rural clubs for the most part.
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Post by An Bradán on Apr 18, 2018 22:19:05 GMT
Absolutely agreed Annascaul.
I did a bit of ranting earlier on a different thread. It wasn't planned but I did go into some of the problems in NK football as I see them. It was only a personal take. Others will disagree.
We need to agree on weaker areas first and then identify why. Suggested solutions will follow.
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mossie
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Post by mossie on Apr 18, 2018 22:25:45 GMT
Ardfert have won 3 all Ireland football titles across intermediate and junior grades whilst playing both codes, Ballyduff and Kilmoyley have had a good cut off winning Munster intermediate club hurling titles, Finuge had a golden generation of players in Eamon Fitz, the Galvins, Trevor McKenna, the Corridans etc but are in decline but Finuge\Lixnaw still a serious dual outfit. There is a lot of football activity in North Kerry and hurling on one side of it, to be going around using labels like blackspots.
At the end of it all there are divisions in Kerry that are longer without a senior county championship than Feale Rangers, in fact I think they all are bar South Kerry.
Terminology like blackspots is not useful and doesn't sit too easy with me
admittedly you would expect big towns like Listowel and Killorglin to have a good senior football team.
The Laune had some run for a good spell, maybe the wheel will turn again
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Post by southward on Apr 18, 2018 23:08:04 GMT
Ardfert have won 3 all Ireland football titles across intermediate and junior grades whilst playing both codes, Ballyduff and Kilmoyley have had a good cut off winning Munster intermediate club hurling titles, Finuge had a golden generation of players in Eamon Fitz, the Galvins, Trevor McKenna, the Corridans etc but are in decline but Finuge\Lixnaw still a serious dual outfit. There is a lot of football activity in North Kerry and hurling on one side of it, to be going around using labels like blackspots. At the end of it all there are divisions in Kerry that are longer without a senior county championship than Feale Rangers, in fact I think they all are bar South Kerry. Terminology like blackspots is not useful and doesn't sit too easy with me admittedly you would expect big towns like Listowel and Killorglin to have a good senior football team. The Laune had some run for a good spell, maybe the wheel will turn again In 2007, Duagh came within a point of making it 3 All Ireland juniors in a row for North Kerry (following Finuge & Ardfert). And of course not forgetting Brosna who won the Junior All Ireland 3 years ago. Ardfert won intermediate in 2007 and 2015. Finuge were intermediate runners up in 2013. Someone referenced East Kerry in comparison with NK on the other thread. Obviously Crokes are the best around but what have the other EK clubs done recently? Little or nothing at national level anyway - Spa were runners-up in 2010 intermediate and that's about it. Not that I want to be slagging off other divisions or anything but it's not all that bad up here.
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mossie
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Post by mossie on Apr 18, 2018 23:12:29 GMT
apologies to mid Kerry , 2008 champs
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Post by mossie on Apr 18, 2018 23:15:53 GMT
well said southward
Shannon rangers were in a county senior semi final in recent years people forget
It is lack of organisation rather than talent that is the main factor in their poor show last year or so
Ballyduff could backbone a team for them with a few of the Foleys, O Seanachain from Ballydonoghue, Shane Enright etc. hurling will be king most of the year out Ballyduff way for long stages of the year though
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 7:56:25 GMT
Castleisland is a decent size town that could do more.
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Post by An Bradán on Apr 19, 2018 8:02:57 GMT
No prob with any of what is being said but there are certainly problems in the division.
Ardfert mentioned a lot but they are not a NK team. They are a St. Brendan's Div Board team.
I am not seeking to cause controversy or stir trouble but there are serious problems in the area.
Schools football could be a starting point. There is no school attempting to make a serious breakthrough at county or Munster /A.I.level. St. Michael's College and Tarbert Comp should be leading the charge on this due to their numbers.
The clubs mentioned above have been excellent in their efforts to win A.I. titles. Credit must go to Brosna, Duagh and Finuge in particular who were there twice and have many dual players.
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 19, 2018 8:06:30 GMT
Does the Kerry county board get funding from GAA or sports council to employ full time coaches at all and if so where are they employed within the county
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 19, 2018 8:08:56 GMT
Some rural clubs are punching above their weight but the likes of Listowel and Castleisland, Killorglin needs assistance
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Post by kerrygold on Apr 19, 2018 9:03:04 GMT
Does the Kerry county board get funding from GAA or sports council to employ full time coaches at all and if so where are they employed within the county The new DG of the GAA recently justified pay per view by funding the payment of 200-300 coaches around the country.
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Post by kerrygold on Apr 19, 2018 9:05:01 GMT
Some rural clubs are punching above their weight but the likes of Listowel and Castleisland, Killorglin needs assistance Killorglin is surprising with the employments associated with the town while Listowel is in the heartland of the Kerry dairy industry.
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kerryexile
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Post by kerryexile on Apr 19, 2018 9:12:09 GMT
No prob with any of what is being said but there are certainly problems in the division. Ardfert mentioned a lot but they are not a NK team. They are a St. Brendan's Div Board team. I am not seeking to cause controversy or stir trouble but there are serious problems in the area. Schools football could be a starting point. There is no school attempting to make a serious breakthrough at county or Munster /A.I.level. St. Michael's College and Tarbert Comp should be leading the charge on this due to their numbers. The clubs mentioned above have been excellent in their efforts to win A.I. titles. Credit must go to Brosna, Duagh and Finuge in particular who were there twice and have many dual players. The schools are very important. Years ago there were only 2 teams from the county that were in the Corn Ui Mhuiri - Tralee and Killarney. The arrival of pobalscoileanna in Caherciveen, Dingle, Killorglin, Rathmore and also Mounthawk has changed that. The same hasn't happened in Listowel. The lower grades of football don't produce the same numbers of good footballers. Maybe there is a case to be made for having Listowel schools, Ballybunion and Tarbert amalgamate to enter a team in the C U M.
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Post by dc84 on Apr 19, 2018 9:54:09 GMT
Until recently you could have added Kenmare and district to that now there are two decent teams there think these things go in cycles.
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Post by hurlingman on Apr 19, 2018 11:09:26 GMT
How do you say somewhere is a ''black spot"? Backed on county titles? Tralee clubs have only won 3 SFC in over 30 years. No team from Listowel has ever actually won a senior title. Only onw has been won by Castleisland etc
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Post by An Bradán on Apr 19, 2018 11:09:28 GMT
I posted this previously on a different thread. I've edited it slightly.
"The secondary schools are also widely dispersed and it has to be said some are doing little or nothing in any case.
Tarbert, Ballybunion, Causeway, Abbeyfeale, Castleisland, two schools in Listowel and a fair few lads head to Tralee schools too. All scattered with little focus on football for some.
I attended a senior college game between the "top two" NK schools. Both teams had barely the 15 to line out. One school team was only put together as a player went around gathering bodies at lunchtime I was told. No Kerry minors bothered lining up either. What the hell is going on ? There seemed to be zero work put into preparation or game plan. The standard was shocking.
You'd have to wonder what happened to all those Ballydonoghue players who were excellent u16s and minors. The vast majority went to one NK school together and achieved....nothing.
The players apparently wanted outside coaches brought in but it was rejected. The same school has taken P.E. off the 6th year curriculum this school year".
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Post by An Bradán on Apr 19, 2018 11:18:50 GMT
How do you say somewhere is a ''black spot"? Backed on county titles? Tralee clubs have only won 3 SFC in over 30 years. No team from Listowel has ever actually won a senior title. Only onw has been won by Castleisland etc I regret calling them black spots. Perhaps underperforming would be a better term. In your post you've highlighted three areas immediately at senior level. Listowel really underachieving . Not even the best team in NK. Castleisland had a superb team in the 80's but are not there now. How Tralee teams haven't won more is a real head scratcher. KOR underage fell off a cliff for some reason. Working hard to return now but Stacks wiping their eye. Mitchels have fabulous facilities but when will they challenge for a county champ ? Na Gaeil heading the right way but still Junior. Laune Rangers were supreme at one stage at so many levels but have fallen badly. Obviously there are cycles and clubs rise and fall but some of these indicate deeper problems.
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Post by Premier on Apr 19, 2018 11:34:20 GMT
Arguably Sneem could be included in this list. They obviously have issues such as depopulation but they seem to be producing no players at all and there seems to be a general disinterest about football in the area. While clubs like Valentia have more more affected than any club in the county, they still have players on the south kerry team every year and a few younger players who could be at that level in a few years.. For an area like Sneem who produced so many good players and were playing by themselves in division 1 in the noughties, they seem to have completely fallen away. I know the areas mentioned above are team who are Junior/Intermediate who should be senior, but i think an area like Sneem should be at least competitive at maybe a junior level as opposed to playing Novice and scoring a combined 0-11 points in 3 games while being joined with Derrynane
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Post by dc84 on Apr 19, 2018 14:24:37 GMT
Arguably Sneem could be included in this list. They obviously have issues such as depopulation but they seem to be producing no players at all and there seems to be a general disinterest about football in the area. While clubs like Valentia have more more affected than any club in the county, they still have players on the south kerry team every year and a few younger players who could be at that level in a few years.. For an area like Sneem who produced so many good players and were playing by themselves in division 1 in the noughties, they seem to have completely fallen away. I know the areas mentioned above are team who are Junior/Intermediate who should be senior, but i think an area like Sneem should be at least competitive at maybe a junior level as opposed to playing Novice and scoring a combined 0-11 points in 3 games while being joined with Derrynane Sneem is surely a bad example they had one group of talented lads who came up together. With c.300 population hard to compete.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 14:32:25 GMT
Killorglin and employment does not come into it - 95% of the employment in Killorglin commute in and out daily - come from other parts of Kerry and indeed Cork - so the correlation between employment and football is lost here.
In fact I would say the majority of Killorglin working population in their 20's and 30's (pre settling down) move to Cork, Dublin or abroad for employment.
It all boils down to underage and also if schools are putting stirling effort in and clubs get the knock on impact of that.
It all happens in cycles - Gaeltacht struggling badly 10 years ago - massive work being done in PCD - all of a sudden Gaeltacht doing well in club football again - same can be said of Dingle - nothing for years and good work at underage plus PCD success has seen success at their senior level
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Post by Premier on Apr 19, 2018 15:25:50 GMT
Arguably Sneem could be included in this list. They obviously have issues such as depopulation but they seem to be producing no players at all and there seems to be a general disinterest about football in the area. While clubs like Valentia have more more affected than any club in the county, they still have players on the south kerry team every year and a few younger players who could be at that level in a few years.. For an area like Sneem who produced so many good players and were playing by themselves in division 1 in the noughties, they seem to have completely fallen away. I know the areas mentioned above are team who are Junior/Intermediate who should be senior, but i think an area like Sneem should be at least competitive at maybe a junior level as opposed to playing Novice and scoring a combined 0-11 points in 3 games while being joined with Derrynane Sneem is surely a bad example they had one group of talented lads who came up together. With c.300 population hard to compete. They have the 3rd biggest population out of the 10 areas in south Kerry and haven’t produced one player of note since Ronan Hussey. They won multiple SK championships in the 1970s and won one in the 90s and competed well into the 2000s but I just feel they could at least be some way competitive if the development was taking place. As discussed in other posts a strong school team makes a big difference and these Sneem players would have been seperate to the success enjoyed by Colaiste na Sceilge almost a decade ago, but as CNS are not even competing at Corn Ui Mhuiri level anymore, maybe the rest of south kerry is heading the same direction as Sneem
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Post by clubman on Apr 19, 2018 18:56:08 GMT
Yes I would agree that Sneem are a club that have fallen off the cliff in the last 10-15 years. From being regulars in Div 1 some 15 years ago they made a rapid decline. I dont think the amalgamation with Derrynane ever took off really. Not sure what the quota is these days between the 2 teams but when last I heard they had no manager and were just training themselves. In general I think South Kerry are punching well above there weight at senior championship level. Most of the clubs are struggling for numbers, even the Marys who have had tremendous success in the last few years have a smallish panel, they have quality not quantity. Laune Rangers would probably be one of the biggest conundrums for me. Huge pick, massive tradition and facing relegation to Junior. Maybe we are overeacting? These things always come and go in cycles
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Post by An Bradán on Apr 20, 2018 0:07:35 GMT
Iveragh numbers probably the weakest in the county. I understand that Colaiste na Sceilige numbers half or less than what they were in school glory days.
I hadn't considered Sneem but it seems it has fallen some distance all right.
I am only too aware of cycles affecting clubs. You would allow for teams dropping one or two divisions but anything more than that in a relatively short time frame raise questions.
So far Sneem, Listowel, Desmonds, Laune Rangers are clubs mentioned. Add to that NK secondary schools and Tralee area in general.
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Post by hurlingman on Apr 20, 2018 7:33:23 GMT
Yes I would agree that Sneem are a club that have fallen off the cliff in the last 10-15 years. From being regulars in Div 1 some 15 years ago they made a rapid decline. I dont think the amalgamation with Derrynane ever took off really. Not sure what the quota is these days between the 2 teams but when last I heard they had no manager and were just training themselves. In general I think South Kerry are punching well above there weight at senior championship level. Most of the clubs are struggling for numbers, even the Marys who have had tremendous success in the last few years have a smallish panel, they have quality not quantity. Laune Rangers would probably be one of the biggest conundrums for me. Huge pick, massive tradition and facing relegation to Junior. Maybe we are overeacting? These things always come and go in cycles Interesting re Sneem. The amalgamation with Derrynane must be going on 10 years now? Strange how it hasn't worked out as they would have been joined togerher at underage for a long time. From what i recall they fell away almost straight away after they joined up.
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Post by keane on Apr 20, 2018 8:21:15 GMT
Iveragh numbers probably the weakest in the county. I understand that Colaiste na Sceilige numbers half or less than what they were in school glory days. I hadn't considered Sneem but it seems it has fallen some distance all right. I am only too aware of cycles affecting clubs. You would allow for teams dropping one or two divisions but anything more than that in a relatively short time frame raise questions. So far Sneem, Listowel, Desmonds, Laune Rangers are clubs mentioned. Add to that NK secondary schools and Tralee area in general. Tralee area is in rude health. Four teams in the top two divisions. Strand Road an agonising point away from County Final last year against a South Kerry team they beat well in an earlier round. Mitchels doing great work from a low ebb in the last 20 years, Na Gael one of the most improved clubs in the county and possibly up to nine players on the Kerry panel between those four.
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Post by Mickmack on Apr 20, 2018 9:11:11 GMT
A bit of local rivalry between two or more town clubs is a good thing
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Post by tonydorigo on Apr 20, 2018 9:49:33 GMT
Nobody wants to stigmatise any area of organisation by claiming that they are blackspots but North Kerry area and Tarbert Comprehensive in particular are underachieving spectacularly. St. Michaels in Listowel and St. Josephs in Ballybunion have smaller numbers and do the best that they can with their resources. The Comp has no discernable football program for the last 10 years' or so and seems to be indicative of a general organisational malaise in North Kerry football. Shannon Rangers underage teams were the only team that could compete with West Kerry teams that included Barry O'Sullivan, Mark O'Connor etc but stagnated as they went into a school that doesn't have a culture for developing talent even though the raw materials are there. I do think that Johnny Stack is a great appointment and is taking proactive steps to make sure that North Kerry football is more competitive and contributing more to Kerry teams and being competitive in county leagues and championships.
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Post by ciarrailar on Apr 20, 2018 10:33:24 GMT
The whole clubs amalgamation thing has some positives but in my view carries more negatives for most clubs. Yes, there is a point when it’s an absolute necessity, otherwise there would be no teams entering some underage competitions, as they don’t have the numbers at a certain age group. We see it working well in the Cordal/Scart marriage at present and it has worked well for Bally/Foilmore down South. I find it difficult, however, to see how these amalgamations will be successful long term.
Yes, it patches a hole for a while but long term, I believe it’s a disaster for the individual clubs. I see it in a number of cases, where the teams entered in underage leagues are playing in a higher division than they ordinarily would as individual clubs, which is great that they are exposed to a higher standard of football, but, at what cost?
What happens a lot is that each of the two clubs draw 7/8 players to make up the starting 15 and then 5 or 6 weaker lads from each side get hardly any game time. It’s all very competitive so the coaches don’t want to be playing the weaker lads playing in the higher divisions. I’d much rather go it alone where possible and pull up lads from the age group below and drop down a number of divisions. Have lads playing together with their neighbours and club mates whom they will fight for than playing for a mungrel amalgamation where there is little pride in the Jersey. If you can keep these lads playing and getting game time, you’ll have more lads sticking with football and playing senior football with their club. Sometimes the amalgamation thing can be done for the wrong reasons. It’s not all about successes at underage level. It’s about getting lads out playing and keeping them together. If they are continuously sitting on the bench at u16 level watching the same 15 lads playing, they’ll eventually get sick of it and drop away. If they were to drop down 3/4 divisions and pull up some of the U14s to join them so the club can stay on its own, then they’d all be playing and much better chance of keeping them long term.
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