Derek
Senior Member
Posts: 456
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Post by Derek on Oct 20, 2017 12:11:56 GMT
Saying we don't have the players to is lazy analysis. Kerry had a resurgent Mayo beaten in the drawn game only to mismanage the last minute of added time. Where's the new thinking on the line, Sheehy, Fitzgerald, Hasset? None have a track record in top level management and all will have to step to plate this year. Kerry have the players to go toe to toe with Dubs and Mayo but didn't look physically or tactically prepared for the replayed semi final this year. That is unacceptable if so. I'm tired of listening to the lazy sentiment creeping in that we don't have the players. Give that Kerry panel to a younger Micko Dwyer and you'll see quickly enough if they have the players or not. Well said. We had Tomás Ó Sé yesterday again peddling this notion. Also the calibre of player has nothing to do with the awful decisions made by Fitmaurice in 2015, 2016 and 2017. Lazy analysis is saying its all the lines fault and in particular Eamonn's. He was the golden boy in '14 when he won an All Ireland when everyone expected a barren spell due to the changing of the guard. If you believe we can go toe to toe with the Dubs - How many of the current Kerry starting 15 would make into the Dublin 15? Or even the Mayo 15 and in particular the back 6. And where is this young Mick O'Dwyer that you speak of? At least put forward a suggestion that a remote possibility as unfortunately we cant reset Micko's biological clock by 50 years. And to be honest I'm surprised Eamonn stuck around given some of the stick he's come in for.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 20, 2017 12:17:06 GMT
There is no doubt that Kerry could have beaten Mayo in the drawn game.
The replay gave a better indication of where Kerry are.
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 20, 2017 12:23:54 GMT
In my opinion Kerry are always behind the curve tactically. This goes back as long as i can remember. Micko had great players and so had Jack. Apart from putting the big man at 14 did either come up with anything innovative. It was fine when Kerry had more good players than opponents to win but that day is gone.
Kerry were so bereft tactically in the replay v mayo it was beyond belief.
In 2018 the keeper has to kickout beyond the 20 metre line. Dublin and Mayo will work out a way of retaining possession. Will Kerry. I dont expect so.
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Post by kerrygold on Oct 20, 2017 12:39:03 GMT
Well said. We had Tomás Ó Sé yesterday again peddling this notion. Also the calibre of player has nothing to do with the awful decisions made by Fitmaurice in 2015, 2016 and 2017. Lazy analysis is saying its all the lines fault and in particular Eamonn's. He was the golden boy in '14 when he won an All Ireland when everyone expected a barren spell due to the changing of the guard. If you believe we can go toe to toe with the Dubs - How many of the current Kerry starting 15 would make into the Dublin 15? Or even the Mayo 15 and in particular the back 6. And where is this young Mick O'Dwyer that you speak of? At least put forward a suggestion that a remote possibility as unfortunately we cant reset Micko's biological clock by 50 years. And to be honest I'm surprised Eamonn stuck around given some of the stick he's come in for. Your missing my point re Micko. Fill that panel and the new young additions next year "with full of running, enthusiasm for the ball" and some tactical nous and they will go a very long way. Kerry weren't "right" this year for the replay v Mayo for whatever reason.
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Post by kerrygold on Oct 20, 2017 12:41:59 GMT
In my opinion Kerry are always behind the curve tactically. This goes back as long as i can remember. Micko had great players and so had Jack. Apart from putting the big man at 14 did either come up with anything innovative. It was fine when Kerry had more good players than opponents to win but that day is gone. Kerry were so bereft tactically in the replay v mayo it was beyond belief. In 2018 the keeper has to kickout beyond the 20 metre line. Dublin and Mayo will work out a way of retaining possession. Will Kerry. I dont expect so. Ya, and 37 titles and 59 All-Ireland finals later.....................Not bad for a backward footballing county. Incidentally, Micko has been involved in 20 of those 59 finals.
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kerryexile
Fanatical Member
Whether you believe that you can, or that you can't, you are right anyway.
Posts: 1,115
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Post by kerryexile on Oct 20, 2017 13:21:07 GMT
In my opinion Kerry are always behind the curve tactically. This goes back as long as i can remember. Micko had great players and so had Jack. Apart from putting the big man at 14 did either come up with anything innovative. It was fine when Kerry had more good players than opponents to win but that day is gone. Kerry were so bereft tactically in the replay v mayo it was beyond belief. In 2018 the keeper has to kickout beyond the 20 metre line. Dublin and Mayo will work out a way of retaining possession. Will Kerry. I dont expect so. Tactics are basically a set of instructions for players to hide weaknesses and they can be successful in a lot of cases. The level above it is players playing purely on instinct probably best demonstrated by the All Blacks in full flight. The level below it is the Kerry defence in the replay against Mayo. Kerry in the 70s & 80s were operating on instinct. What are you basing this on? When was Micko exposed tactically?
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Post by kerrygold on Oct 20, 2017 14:19:38 GMT
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Post by kerrygold on Oct 20, 2017 14:24:59 GMT
In my opinion Kerry are always behind the curve tactically. This goes back as long as i can remember. Micko had great players and so had Jack. Apart from putting the big man at 14 did either come up with anything innovative. It was fine when Kerry had more good players than opponents to win but that day is gone. Kerry were so bereft tactically in the replay v mayo it was beyond belief. In 2018 the keeper has to kickout beyond the 20 metre line. Dublin and Mayo will work out a way of retaining possession. Will Kerry. I dont expect so. Tactics are basically a set of instructions for players to hide weaknesses and they can be successful in a lot of cases. The level above it is players playing purely on instinct probably best demonstrated by the All Blacks in full flight. The level below it is the Kerry defence in the replay against Mayo. Kerry in the 70s & 80s were operating on instinct. What are you basing this on? When was Micko exposed tactically? The All Blacks ability and sheer skill to play ball in the most recent RC final was phenomenal. Physicality and game tactics seemed secondary. I agree it looked purely to be based on instinct and skill.
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Aodhan
Senior Member
Posts: 792
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Post by Aodhan on Oct 20, 2017 16:56:56 GMT
Just a short couple of months ago Tomas was telling us all that there were two elite teams- Dublin and Kerry. I thought at the time it was a case of the O'Se famous "foot-in-mouth syndrome", along with giving Mayo the ammunition needed. Now this complete turnaround, the reality is somewhere in between. We may not win the All Ireland next year but we should be very competitive. The long term future is very bright for Kerry and I for one would not trade places with anyone including Dublin. There is nothing greater to wet the Kerry appetite than the challenge that is currently in front of them. The Dubs may well win the four-in-a-row but we will be ready and able in 2019.
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Post by kerrygold on Oct 20, 2017 21:54:28 GMT
Tomas should take a Kit Kat and chill. No reason why Kerry shouldn't aim for Sam in 2018. You'd hate to think Tomas is becoming Corkonian like.
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Post by thebluepanther on Oct 21, 2017 7:55:40 GMT
Kerry have every chance of winning Sam in 2018, but I don't think they can beat Dublin and Mayo in the same year going by both Dublins and Mayo's recent performances . I feel they will need the other two to play each other and then on the day in a one off game anything is possible, to write Kerry off would be crazy. Although how far are Kerry ahead of Tyrone I feel Kerry's game plan against Mayo in second game was more suited had they been fixed to play Tyrone , possibly Kerry might have sneaked a slow scoring game and EF would have been lauded for his tactics(who knows). Having rewatched both Kerry v Mayo games this year . It was evident that Mayo have some of the best attacking half backs in the country and in Parsons one of the best midfielders. They really are a brilliant team who because they havnt got Sam dont get enough credit. They caused Kerry untold problems in first game. I felt (wrongly)at the time during the first game that Kerry didn't treat Mayo seriously enough and maybe got caught up in all the talk of a Dublin v Kerry final , maybe this was why they were constantly on the back foot and physically pushed out of it and would address this in the replay. But in second game it was evident EF feared conceading goals, knew how good Mayo were with their running game and went very defensive, this invited Mayo on, stifled Paul Murphys game and gave Lee Keegan the freedom of the park. Higgins and Boyle must have thought their birthdays came at once, Parsons was allowed bully Jack Barry and in truth it was if EF didn't trust his players to go toe to toe with Mayo and withdrew the players back. Tactically the second game was a disaster. But having said all that , it's easy to criticise from afar, EF went with what he felt would work , it didnt but to be fair to him has now made himself available until 2020. We got it wrong in 2014 and came back. Question now is can Kerry.
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Post by inforthebreaks on Oct 21, 2017 10:41:27 GMT
That is amazing because I cannot remember seeing worse performances by a Kerry defence. If his pride is more important than rectifying that situation we are in an even worse situation than i thought. The three selectors as former forwards are unlikely to have been the defensive coaches! Why not? The most sparkling forward play I’ve seen in recent times was kerry in the 2013 semi final. Masterminded by a former defender in Eamon Fitzmaurice. Also going back to 2002 kerry were sublime in an attacking sense. Mastermind by another former defender in PO. My point is former players don’t only have the ability to coach the kind of game they played.
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Oct 21, 2017 12:53:55 GMT
Tactics are basically a set of instructions for players to hide weaknesses and they can be successful in a lot of cases. The level above it is players playing purely on instinct probably best demonstrated by the All Blacks in full flight. The level below it is the Kerry defence in the replay against Mayo. Kerry in the 70s & 80s were operating on instinct. What are you basing this on? When was Micko exposed tactically? The All Blacks ability and sheer skill to play ball in the most recent RC final was phenomenal. Physicality and game tactics seemed secondary. I agree it looked purely to be based on instinct and skill. When you're too good tactics don't matter
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Post by kerrygold on Oct 21, 2017 13:06:22 GMT
Kerry have every chance of winning Sam in 2018, but I don't think they can beat Dublin and Mayo in the same year going by both Dublins and Mayo's recent performances . I feel they will need the other two to play each other and then on the day in a one off game anything is possible, to write Kerry off would be crazy. Although how far are Kerry ahead of Tyrone I feel Kerry's game plan against Mayo in second game was more suited had they been fixed to play Tyrone , possibly Kerry might have sneaked a slow scoring game and EF would have been lauded for his tactics(who knows). Having rewatched both Kerry v Mayo games this year . It was evident that Mayo have some of the best attacking half backs in the country and in Parsons one of the best midfielders. They really are a brilliant team who because they havnt got Sam dont get enough credit. They caused Kerry untold problems in first game. I felt (wrongly)at the time during the first game that Kerry didn't treat Mayo seriously enough and maybe got caught up in all the talk of a Dublin v Kerry final , maybe this was why they were constantly on the back foot and physically pushed out of it and would address this in the replay. But in second game it was evident EF feared conceading goals, knew how good Mayo were with their running game and went very defensive, this invited Mayo on, stifled Paul Murphys game and gave Lee Keegan the freedom of the park. Higgins and Boyle must have thought their birthdays came at once, Parsons was allowed bully Jack Barry and in truth it was if EF didn't trust his players to go toe to toe with Mayo and withdrew the players back. Tactically the second game was a disaster. But having said all that , it's easy to criticise from afar, EF went with what he felt would work , it didnt but to be fair to him has now made himself available until 2020. We got it wrong in 2014 and came back. Question now is can Kerry. Maybe not, if Kerry had stumbled over Mayo the first day and peaked four weeks later anything could have happened in the final. Kerry are well ahead of Tyrone also.
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Post by kerrygold on Oct 21, 2017 13:07:37 GMT
The All Blacks ability and sheer skill to play ball in the most recent RC final was phenomenal. Physicality and game tactics seemed secondary. I agree it looked purely to be based on instinct and skill. When you're too good tactics don't matter Very true. As you say, tactics are a crutch!
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Post by kerrygold on Oct 21, 2017 13:10:22 GMT
The three selectors as former forwards are unlikely to have been the defensive coaches! Why not? The most sparkling forward play I’ve seen in recent times was kerry in the 2013 semi final. Masterminded by a former defender in Eamon Fitzmaurice. Also going back to 2002 kerry were sublime in an attacking sense. Mastermind by another former defender in PO. My point is former players don’t only have the ability to coach the kind of game they played. Some cracking attack players played for Kerry in 2013. Gooch, Declan and JOD for example.
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Oct 21, 2017 13:16:15 GMT
We're all in agreement that management got the replay with Mayo badly wrong, especially the starting 15 and set up. I don't think enough focus has been given to how poorly the players performed. Yet we still managed to score 17 points, and had a great goal chance brilliantly treble saved and we lost Darran who was looking dangerous to a scandalous black card. So
Kelly - very poor Enright - very poor Killian - poor Griffin - poor Lyne - very poor Murphy- excellent Crowley - very good Morley - ok
2 of the back line playing well. Game is lost right there.
Moran - poor Barry - poor
O'Brien - very good Buckley - poor Donnacha - very poor
Geaney - very good Star - ok Tom Sullivan - poor
So to my memory that's 5 of the starting 15 playing to form. Shocking The league final proves we're not that far away, we need a couple of retirements and more infusion of youth, but as I mentioned in previous post and KG again in this thread, something collectively with the team was off for the replay, the performance was just too bad.
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Post by kerrygold on Oct 21, 2017 15:29:28 GMT
Yes a general malaise ran through the team for the replay. We don't know how Kerry would have prepared over the subsequent four weeks for the final if they had closed out the drawn semi final.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Oct 22, 2017 0:14:25 GMT
Just as a better team can override tactics, tactics can outdo a better team. In any contest between two sets of players who don't have a large gulf in ability, fitness etc the better team still needs to come close to breaking even in the tactical battle.
I would question Kerry's fitness the last two years, but more especially this year. The ability was clearly there but they were run off the pitch by Mayo and ran out of steam last year. They also got physically bullied in both cases. Get those things right and the rest could fall into place.
You can be all sorts of instinctive talent like the ABs but they are in fact the most physical team out there. The Lions did so well in the second and third tests by very smart tactics and better mental approach. Gatland is in his element when he has a bunch of warriors and some class players willing to grind themselves into the ground who are written off. And the Lions conditioning, tackling and defence proved to be spot on once they reached the same intensity as the ABs. Only question was did the ABs drop their intensity after the first test? It can be a mental thing.
Kerry produced the physicality in the latter part of the league but couldn't match the level of the other two top teams later on. Also Kerry have alot of younger players who haven't physically fully developed yet. Mayo have the ex-Kerry trainer and Kerry seem to clearly have suffered since his loss to them. And Mayo have gained with inverse proportion. Did Kerry think they had Mayo beaten after the first game, business as usual?
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Post by Mickmack on Oct 22, 2017 9:35:22 GMT
Just as a better team can override tactics, tactics can outdo a better team. In any contest between two sets of players who don't have a large gulf in ability, fitness etc the better team still needs to come close to breaking even in the tactical battle. Well said.
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