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Post by onlykerry on Aug 1, 2017 15:51:06 GMT
Is it time for the GAA to appoint umpires for Championship games and not simply get the ref to bring along a few pals to don the white coats? Sunday saw a lot of off the ball (probably most games do) action right under the eyes of the umpires - ever before the ball was thrown in JOD was being belted in plain view of the umpire who did not bring it to the attention of the referee. Any behaviour that is tolerated is continued and magnifies until it finally becomes a problem.Luckily the umpire also missed James lamping Declan Kyne in the crown jewels a few mins later. Exactly my point.
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Post by givehimaball on Aug 1, 2017 16:39:15 GMT
Is it time for the GAA to appoint umpires for Championship games and not simply get the ref to bring along a few pals to don the white coats? Sunday saw a lot of off the ball (probably most games do) action right under the eyes of the umpires - ever before the ball was thrown in JOD was being belted in plain view of the umpire who did not bring it to the attention of the referee. Any behaviour that is tolerated is continued and magnifies until it finally becomes a problem. Under the current rules a linesman or an umpire can tell a referee what he has seen in terms of an off-the-ball incident but he can’t suggest a card or award a free-kick or a penalty. This tells you all you need to know about how much value the GAA put on umpires and referees - if the referee 50 meteres away and is unsighted by a player and both umpires, who are both probably standing within 5 metres, tell him "it's a blatant penalty and a red card" under the GAA regulations, the referee would be wrong to award a penalty and send the player off.
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peanuts
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,857
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Post by peanuts on Aug 1, 2017 16:57:21 GMT
Is it time for the GAA to appoint umpires for Championship games and not simply get the ref to bring along a few pals to don the white coats? Sunday saw a lot of off the ball (probably most games do) action right under the eyes of the umpires - ever before the ball was thrown in JOD was being belted in plain view of the umpire who did not bring it to the attention of the referee. Any behaviour that is tolerated is continued and magnifies until it finally becomes a problem. Under the current rules a linesman or an umpire can tell a referee what he has seen in terms of an off-the-ball incident but he can’t suggest a card or award a free-kick or a penalty. This tells you all you need to know about how much value the GAA put on umpires and referees - if the referee 50 meteres away and is unsighted by a player and both umpires, who are both probably standing within 5 metres, tell him "it's a blatant penalty and a red card" under the GAA regulations, the referee would be wrong to award a penalty and send the player off. I think this is due to the fact that in many club games the umpires are not supplied by the referee and the GAA try to have the same rules in all levels of the Association. This was one of the reasons cited for the non-introduction of the sin bin (instead of the black card) as it would have been too difficult to manage by a referee on his own.
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Post by onlykerry on Aug 1, 2017 17:31:04 GMT
It Bul...it of the highest order to suggest the difficulty in implementing rules at grassroots is the reason for not applying them at intercounty level - just look how they can justify hawkeye in some grounds and not the bulk of grounds. Also the number of pitches that are not properly lined is another glaring example of different application of the rules at different levels.
Also in relation to the comment that umpires and linesmen cannot instruct the referee - this is entirely correct but it does not prevent the referee from taking action based on information provided by them and this happens on occassion. It is the selective use of this information that is infuriating.
If Hawk Eye can be used selectively - same stage of a competition can be played with or without, it should be relatively simple to insist on competent umpires with both umpires and linesmen miked to the referee from provincial final onwards at the very least.
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Post by southward on Aug 1, 2017 17:54:12 GMT
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Post by kerrygold on Aug 1, 2017 20:52:41 GMT
Is it time for the GAA to appoint umpires for Championship games and not simply get the ref to bring along a few pals to don the white coats? Sunday saw a lot of off the ball (probably most games do) action right under the eyes of the umpires - ever before the ball was thrown in JOD was being belted in plain view of the umpire who did not bring it to the attention of the referee. Any behaviour that is tolerated is continued and magnifies until it finally becomes a problem. Under the current rules a linesman or an umpire can tell a referee what he has seen in terms of an off-the-ball incident but he can’t suggest a card or award a free-kick or a penalty. This tells you all you need to know about how much value the GAA put on umpires and referees - if the referee 50 meteres away and is unsighted by a player and both umpires, who are both probably standing within 5 metres, tell him "it's a blatant penalty and a red card" under the GAA regulations, the referee would be wrong to award a penalty and send the player off. Going on this so all Refs are shooting in the dark all the time when they card or sent off a player based on what they have been told the umpire or linesman saw if they didn't see it themselves.
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Post by southward on Aug 1, 2017 22:25:55 GMT
Is it time for the GAA to appoint umpires for Championship games and not simply get the ref to bring along a few pals to don the white coats? Sunday saw a lot of off the ball (probably most games do) action right under the eyes of the umpires - ever before the ball was thrown in JOD was being belted in plain view of the umpire who did not bring it to the attention of the referee. Any behaviour that is tolerated is continued and magnifies until it finally becomes a problem. Under the current rules a linesman or an umpire can tell a referee what he has seen in terms of an off-the-ball incident but he can’t suggest a card or award a free-kick or a penalty. This tells you all you need to know about how much value the GAA put on umpires and referees - if the referee 50 meteres away and is unsighted by a player and both umpires, who are both probably standing within 5 metres, tell him "it's a blatant penalty and a red card" under the GAA regulations, the referee would be wrong to award a penalty and send the player off. No need for the umpire's input at all. The referee just needs to consult Kevin MacManamon
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 1, 2017 22:57:18 GMT
Is it time for the GAA to appoint umpires for Championship games and not simply get the ref to bring along a few pals to don the white coats? Sunday saw a lot of off the ball (probably most games do) action right under the eyes of the umpires - ever before the ball was thrown in JOD was being belted in plain view of the umpire who did not bring it to the attention of the referee. Any behaviour that is tolerated is continued and magnifies until it finally becomes a problem. Under the current rules a linesman or an umpire can tell a referee what he has seen in terms of an off-the-ball incident but he can’t suggest a card or award a free-kick or a penalty. This tells you all you need to know about how much value the GAA put on umpires and referees - if the referee 50 meteres away and is unsighted by a player and both umpires, who are both probably standing within 5 metres, tell him "it's a blatant penalty and a red card" under the GAA regulations, the referee would be wrong to award a penalty and send the player off. I was an umpire once for an U-21 county final. The referee who brought us instructed us very clearly in terms of our communication with the flags and to watch out for off the ball stuff. The other umpire was a county league player. As a ball was been taken out of defence we heard a punch. A forward asked us did we see it. We did not and did not respond. In the next such play a forward took out a back coming out (it might be a black today). The other umpire raised the hand. Eventuality the ref came in to meet us. We explained there was a punch but we did not see it. We said we saw number X take out the back. He said was it a strike...we said no a rugby tackle and then he asked us was it only a yellow and we said we thought so. We just told him what we saw but if it needed clarification on our end. I think he also told a forward that he knew there was a punch but nobody saw who it was so sorry, end of. The same ref was having a great game until he failed to play a particular advantage. He was beating himself up over that. The main take away from me: both umpires should consult before calling a score or otherwise.
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Post by buck02 on Aug 14, 2017 11:19:07 GMT
Watching the Cahalane second yellow card yesterday, these type of "tackles" are going on with regularity in hurling games, sometimes a yellow card is given and sometimes not.
If Cahalane did what he did yesterday to an opponent in a football game it would probably see him get red carded.
Why the difference between the two codes?
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Post by givehimaball on Aug 14, 2017 22:27:48 GMT
Watching the Cahalane second yellow card yesterday, these type of "tackles" are going on with regularity in hurling games, sometimes a yellow card is given and sometimes not. If Cahalane did what he did yesterday to an opponent in a football game it would probably see him get red carded. Why the difference between the two codes? I think the "let the game flow" brigade have done long-term damage to hurling, bringing far more "physicality" into the game at the expense of skill. There seems to be an utter unwillingness by the hurling punditry to recognize that this is cheating. Also hurling seems to have the same issue that football had for a while where goal-scoring opportunities are choked off before they begin because the defending side gives away a blatant free.
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Aodhan
Senior Member
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Post by Aodhan on Aug 14, 2017 23:58:22 GMT
I would like to get some clarity regarding an aspect of tackling that is allowed by most referees and will have a very large bearing on the outcome of both upcoming semi-finals.
I'm referring to when two or more players (usually three or four) and usually defenders converge on the player in possession with hands flaking away in all directions mainly resulting in a free out for over carrying. Surely this should be a free in as the attacker is repeatedly fouled? I have seen a referee make the call both ways (normally at the other end) in the same game which confuses matters further.
Tyrone are masters at this and if this is allowed again Dublin I would expect them to win. Dermot has referred to this as excellent tackling but also knows that it's up to the interpretation of the referee.
This will also be a major part of Mayo's plan next Sunday as I expect their intensity level will go up several notches even surpassing that of both finals last year.
This should be cut and dried, it's either a free in or a free out, what are the opinions of the experts here?
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keane
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Post by keane on Aug 15, 2017 7:23:31 GMT
If you watch Tyrone carefully they surround the ball carrier and pen him in but are usually very careful to avoid the flaking away part. They are very well drilled and disciplined in their tackling.
The situation you describe is 100% a free to the ball carrier but I'm not convinced it usually applies to Tyrone.
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Post by onlykerry on Aug 15, 2017 9:01:46 GMT
I asked a referee about this aspect of play in the past and his reply was - if the ball is being attacked it is ok, if the player is being attacked it is a foul. The discipline Keane refers to is crucial - surround by all means but the ball (not the player) needs to be the focus of attention. I would agree that this leaves a hell of a lot open to interpretation for the referee and what he perceives is happening.
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Post by givehimaball on Aug 15, 2017 12:16:51 GMT
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fivenarow
Senior Member
If it aint broken, then dont fix it!
Posts: 924
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Post by fivenarow on Aug 15, 2017 12:38:01 GMT
I've always thought that there's some validation in having 2 refs for inter county games, one on each half of the pitch similar to the compromise rules. It would probably lead to a fiasco for the first year but the off the ball stuff would certainly reduce after a while. It's obviously not viable for club games but it's something that I think should be looked at by croke park.
We'll never get around some of the beauts that we gave reffing underage games in this county, the county board just seem to be ok with mostly overweight refs that can't run, reffing the games from the centre of the field & making reckless decisions that focus the attention on them rather than the game in hand. I call them the high viz refs who think they become some way important when they ref a game. There's some good ones out there but man are there some bad ones - are these people answerable to anyone or are they left to work away without being questioned or fitness tested??
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Post by macdanger on Aug 15, 2017 20:35:13 GMT
Your original question on 29th. drew a couple of diverse opinions, including my own view. The Referees Handbook is issued as a guide for Referees. It advises as follows: “Signal - Advantage is signaled by the referee raising an arm upright and maintaining in an upright position for the period of the advantage. Recall - If no advantage accrues then the referee shall award a free for the foul from where it occurred. For the avoidance of doubt, a free kick/puck shall be awarded even if the fouled player/team has a shot at goal which is saved or goes wide. Foul Subsequent to Advantage Award - If, during the advantage period, a foul is committed by a player of the team which was originally fouled then the advantage is canceled and a free kick/puck awarded for the “second” foul. If during the advantage period, another foul is committed against the team which received the original advantage, then a free kick/puck will be awarded for the “second” foul if it is considered more advantageous than the original.” With regard to your latest question - If the goalkeeper is not taking the kick-out, he shall stay in the small rectangle, and all other players, except the player taking the kick-out, shall be outside the 20m line and 13m from the ball until it has been kicked. As you imply, there is a frustrating lack of consistency. I just hope our keeper doesn’t resort to dribbling the ball out the field from the’ kick out’ as the rule allows. The player taking a kick-out may kick the ball more than once before any other player touches it but may not take the ball into his hands. That would be the final straw for me! The bit in the 4th paragraph is a complete joke - say you're being fouled and the ref plays advantage; if you overcarry, it's supposed to be a free against you. Makes no sense
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Post by ciarrailar on Aug 15, 2017 23:35:47 GMT
Is it time for the GAA to appoint umpires for Championship games and not simply get the ref to bring along a few pals to don the white coats? Sunday saw a lot of off the ball (probably most games do) action right under the eyes of the umpires - ever before the ball was thrown in JOD was being belted in plain view of the umpire who did not bring it to the attention of the referee. Any behaviour that is tolerated is continued and magnifies until it finally becomes a problem. Under the current rules a linesman or an umpire can tell a referee what he has seen in terms of an off-the-ball incident but he can’t suggest a card or award a free-kick or a penalty. This tells you all you need to know about how much value the GAA put on umpires and referees - if the referee 50 meteres away and is unsighted by a player and both umpires, who are both probably standing within 5 metres, tell him "it's a blatant penalty and a red card" under the GAA regulations, the referee would be wrong to award a penalty and send the player off. The umpires have a duty to bring to the attention of the referee any incidents of foul play which hasn't been spotted by the referee. The referee then applies the sanctions given what he has been told. You're correct to say the umpire cannot tell the referee what card to give and whether it's a penalty or not, they tell him exactly what they have seen and then it's up to the referee to make up his mind as to what to give which seems fair enough to me.
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Post by ciarrailar on Aug 15, 2017 23:47:57 GMT
Your original question on 29th. drew a couple of diverse opinions, including my own view. The Referees Handbook is issued as a guide for Referees. It advises as follows: “Signal - Advantage is signaled by the referee raising an arm upright and maintaining in an upright position for the period of the advantage. Recall - If no advantage accrues then the referee shall award a free for the foul from where it occurred. For the avoidance of doubt, a free kick/puck shall be awarded even if the fouled player/team has a shot at goal which is saved or goes wide. Foul Subsequent to Advantage Award - If, during the advantage period, a foul is committed by a player of the team which was originally fouled then the advantage is canceled and a free kick/puck awarded for the “second” foul. If during the advantage period, another foul is committed against the team which received the original advantage, then a free kick/puck will be awarded for the “second” foul if it is considered more advantageous than the original.” With regard to your latest question - If the goalkeeper is not taking the kick-out, he shall stay in the small rectangle, and all other players, except the player taking the kick-out, shall be outside the 20m line and 13m from the ball until it has been kicked. As you imply, there is a frustrating lack of consistency. I just hope our keeper doesn’t resort to dribbling the ball out the field from the’ kick out’ as the rule allows. The player taking a kick-out may kick the ball more than once before any other player touches it but may not take the ball into his hands. That would be the final straw for me! The bit in the 4th paragraph is a complete joke - say you're being fouled and the ref plays advantage; if you overcarry, it's supposed to be a free against you. Makes no sense Incorrect..... If a player being fouled overcarrys the ball while advantage is being played the referee then gives the free to that player for the original foul. It is at the point of over carrying that no advantage accrued so the original free is given.
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Post by macdanger on Aug 16, 2017 9:26:24 GMT
The bit in the 4th paragraph is a complete joke - say you're being fouled and the ref plays advantage; if you overcarry, it's supposed to be a free against you. Makes no sense Incorrect..... If a player being fouled overcarrys the ball while advantage is being played the referee then gives the free to that player for the original foul. It is at the point of over carrying that no advantage accrued so the original free is given. Are you sure? If so, what does the paragraph I've highlighted in bold refer to?
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Fado
Senior Member
Posts: 317
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Post by Fado on Aug 16, 2017 10:03:00 GMT
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Post by onlykerry on Aug 16, 2017 11:32:27 GMT
I'd be happy if the ref knew and and applied them........consistently that is.
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Fado
Senior Member
Posts: 317
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Post by Fado on Aug 16, 2017 14:10:19 GMT
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mandad
Senior Member
Posts: 448
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Post by mandad on Aug 16, 2017 15:16:14 GMT
The non-enforcement of the 4 steps rule is creating a large amount of the controversial issues that are causing so much frustration with referees and the debate around the use of various cards and advantage rules etc.
When a player is confronted by an opponent in possession of the ball he can time his tackle effectively if he knows that the opponent is strictly confined to four steps or otherwise he will be whistled for over-carrying the ball.
The options available to a defender, when opposing a ball-carrier running at him at pace, are very limited when he expects that the four steps rule is not going to be strictly enforced. Tackling players resort to physical force, resulting in a yellow or black card and a seat on the bench.
There are certain players who have perfected this exaggerated hop and the referees do not seem to care that the ‘four steps’ are now in effect closer to ten steps.
We sometimes hear people recommending ‘common sense’ refereeing but I would suggest that ‘consistency’ is far more important. Players will continue to take advantage and the game will continue to suffer as long as referees enforce the rules in this, a la carte, fashion.
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Post by ciarrailar on Aug 23, 2017 12:16:28 GMT
The non-enforcement of the 4 steps rule is creating a large amount of the controversial issues that are causing so much frustration with referees and the debate around the use of various cards and advantage rules etc. When a player is confronted by an opponent in possession of the ball he can time his tackle effectively if he knows that the opponent is strictly confined to four steps or otherwise he will be whistled for over-carrying the ball. The options available to a defender, when opposing a ball-carrier running at him at pace, are very limited when he expects that the four steps rule is not going to be strictly enforced. Tackling players resort to physical force, resulting in a yellow or black card and a seat on the bench. There are certain players who have perfected this exaggerated hop and the referees do not seem to care that the ‘four steps’ are now in effect closer to ten steps. We sometimes hear people recommending ‘common sense’ refereeing but I would suggest that ‘consistency’ is far more important. Players will continue to take advantage and the game will continue to suffer as long as referees enforce the rules in this, a la carte, fashion. On my count, Colm Boyle took ten steps before hopping the ball and then shooting to the back of the net.... How are referees missing such glaringly obvious things.....? It looked all sorts of wrong yet he got away with it and rounded a man who might otherwise have dispossessed him if he played the ball properly!
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Post by allrounder on Feb 22, 2018 8:36:41 GMT
I'm thinking of doing the referee's course (as below) in Tralee tomorrow night. it is very easy to slate referee's up in the stand, so I've decided to walk the walk and try the whistle on for myself ( I must be mad!!!) Anyone joining me!!!
Referee’s Foundation Course
The dates and times have been decided for the Referee’s Foundation Course. As requested by a number of clubs, these courses will be held in 3 locations - Tralee, Killarney and Caherciveen.
The dates are as follows:
Tralee February 23rd and March 2nd Austin Stack Park 8pm
Caherciveen March 9th and 16th Venue to be decided 8pm
Killarney March 23rd and 30th Venue to be decided 8pm
The Course will last for 1.5 hours each night and attendance on both nights is obligatory.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Feb 22, 2018 8:44:20 GMT
You are mad.
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Post by allrounder on Feb 22, 2018 8:52:53 GMT
I've just finished up playing and I've no interest in training/managing a team so its a way of doing my bit for the club ( and keep the beer belly away!!!) Will you do umpire for me!!
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Feb 22, 2018 9:18:53 GMT
I've just finished up playing and I've no interest in training/managing a team so its a way of doing my bit for the club ( and keep the beer belly away!!!) Will you do umpire for me!! I have to second the "You are mad". Its a noble choice to make but jeez I'd not be doing it- you warm to a having a beer belly after a while.
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Post by allrounder on Feb 22, 2018 9:46:03 GMT
I've just finished up playing and I've no interest in training/managing a team so its a way of doing my bit for the club ( and keep the beer belly away!!!) Will you do umpire for me!! I have to second the "You are mad". Its a noble choice to make but jeez I'd not be doing it- you warm to a having a beer belly after a while. It can't be that bad lads or can it!!! at least if I criticize a referee on here from now on, I'll know what I'm talking about!!
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Post by sullyschoice on Feb 22, 2018 10:37:57 GMT
My young lad just did the refs course for football up to U14 i think. He already refs camogie matches.
He gets 30 or 40 Euro a game. I know fellas who spend their weekend doing games and make a fortune. (Small fortune).
Our club paid out about €30k on refs fees alone a couple of years ago.
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