Aodhan
Senior Member
Posts: 792
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Post by Aodhan on Nov 27, 2016 4:09:45 GMT
I like the rule myself. Sure at the moment a lot of times a fella catches a high ball he is fouled on landing anyway, this rule will save him a few clatters hopefully. The only problem i see with it is the 5 second rule. If the fetcher is within 45 yards from goal he may want to have a crack at a point, t he opposition will not want him to and he has 5 seconds to kick it. You cant picture the scene. They will be penalized 13m and he will have an easier pot at it with more time.
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Aodhan
Senior Member
Posts: 792
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Post by Aodhan on Nov 27, 2016 4:11:17 GMT
Not sure if I've ever seen a goalkeeper hit an unattended player from 45m..... That area tends to be a busy place on the pitch.... This is my point. It's 32m plus.
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Post by onlykerry on Nov 30, 2016 10:17:55 GMT
Watched the Crokes game last week with the Mark in mind and ended up thinking crikes the mark could be interesting after all. I assume one can score from a mark - this means intercepting a short kick out could give the attacking team a shot at a score. Will this encourage attacking teams to contest kick outs more? Will it make teams think twice about the short kick out? The keepers kick out could become an even more critical part of the game depending on how attacking teams view the mark and adapt to it. Also we have all wondered about kicking into a strong wind, imagine kicking with it and a keeper having the range to target a half forward who could catch clean and have a shot at the posts.
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Post by lár na páirce on Nov 30, 2016 11:03:03 GMT
Watched the Crokes game last week with the Mark in mind and ended up thinking crikes the mark could be interesting after all. I assume one can score from a mark - this means intercepting a short kick out could give the attacking team a shot at a score. Will this encourage attacking teams to contest kick outs more? Will it make teams think twice about the short kick out? The keepers kick out could become an even more critical part of the game depending on how attacking teams view the mark and adapt to it. Also we have all wondered about kicking into a strong wind, imagine kicking with it and a keeper having the range to target a half forward who could catch clean and have a shot at the posts. Can't score from a "Mark" and the player who fields it must take the kick within 5 secs
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Post by onlykerry on Nov 30, 2016 12:04:47 GMT
Watched the Crokes game last week with the Mark in mind and ended up thinking crikes the mark could be interesting after all. I assume one can score from a mark - this means intercepting a short kick out could give the attacking team a shot at a score. Will this encourage attacking teams to contest kick outs more? Will it make teams think twice about the short kick out? The keepers kick out could become an even more critical part of the game depending on how attacking teams view the mark and adapt to it. Also we have all wondered about kicking into a strong wind, imagine kicking with it and a keeper having the range to target a half forward who could catch clean and have a shot at the posts. Can't score from a "Mark" and the player who fields it must take the kick within 5 secs Thanks for clarifying that. The five second rule is wishy washy - bit like the number of steps. However scoring is very definitive. Does the mark kick have to go a particular distance?
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keane
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,267
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Post by keane on Nov 30, 2016 12:45:17 GMT
I'm not sure the scoring is all that definitive. The handout below is very specifically referring to someone other than the mark winner not being allowed to score from the mark. I take that this means the mark winner may score, but if he's injured and someone else has to take it that person can't score. This makes sense as a team can't have guys pretend to be injured every time they win a mark so their long range free taker can step up, but doesn't stop someone having a pop if they want to themselves.
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Post by onlykerry on Nov 30, 2016 15:23:07 GMT
Jumpin Jack Flash - there is an opportunity for a third level college to introduce a degree level course in refereeing. The number of points the referee needs to be au fait with in relation to this rule is bonkers. The amount of information the referee must process and be aware of as well as staying alert for what is going on behind his back. Rule makers should be made referee games and then see what they would come up with.
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keane
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,267
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Post by keane on Dec 1, 2016 0:45:48 GMT
Would be interesting to hear any ideas for 'simplified rules for gaelic football' if anyone wanted to hazard any...
My own would approximate some opposite of 'make the games more like AFL and then charge them for taking our players' but that's deliberately facetious so.....
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Post by givehimaball on Dec 1, 2016 11:51:24 GMT
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Post by givehimaball on Dec 1, 2016 11:52:13 GMT
Jumpin Jack Flash - there is an opportunity for a third level college to introduce a degree level course in refereeing. The number of points the referee needs to be au fait with in relation to this rule is bonkers. The amount of information the referee must process and be aware of as well as staying alert for what is going on behind his back. Rule makers should be made referee games and then see what they would come up with. www.gaa.ie/news/brian-gavin-referee-handbook-can-help-players-and-public-too/
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Post by Ballyfireside on Dec 1, 2016 12:44:30 GMT
It is little wonder we are confused even a correct rule change won't work if because referees don't cooperate. The Black Card should be working smoothly before any further rule change, otherwise we are creating a right mess that will corrupt the outcome of games. Just imagine Cluxton or the like on a windy day, lands the ball on his high fielder FF and who when ascending pushed a wee laddo in the back of which the ref was blindsided and the umpires broke into their usual silence, big FF gets his mark and is on for goal, when it should have been a free out! And others will have better examples.
Tight margins is now common so I think HQ should step back from rule changes, well at least until previous ones have overcome teething problems, the problem is referees, not the rules, no good souping up the engine if the driver needs to brush up on their skill, otherwise we are looking at mayhem, when we should be looking at battoning down the hatches from the Aussie raiders.
Our own county board and HQ sent out very encouraging signals last season that they were listening, yet they then proceed with crazy stuff. Although we are each capable of miscalls, it isn't as if we are all stupid and THE MISUSE OF THE BLACK CARD RULE HAS DISTORTED THE OUTCOME OF GAMES and that is the ultimate failure of a rule.
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Post by Attacking Wing Back on Dec 1, 2016 14:26:16 GMT
I Just imagine Cluxton or the like on a windy day, lands the ball on his high fielder FF and who when ascending pushed a wee laddo in the back of which the ref was blindsided and the umpires broke into their usual silence, big FF gets his mark and is on for goal, when it should have been a free out! And others will have better examples. It would nearly want to be a hurricane for Cluxton to be able to land the ball to the full forward. Wait and see how it goes before people start going mental. As for the black card I think its fine. Any of the matches i've been at people have been screaming for the black card for nothing fouls. People need to know the rules. Also most issues are with the black card are when they are not given as opposed to when they are given. I'd rather a ref err on the side of caution and not end a players day early if unsure. I wonder what we gave out about before the black card? Reds not being given etc.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Dec 5, 2016 8:01:07 GMT
I Just imagine Cluxton or the like on a windy day, lands the ball on his high fielder FF and who when ascending pushed a wee laddo in the back of which the ref was blindsided and the umpires broke into their usual silence, big FF gets his mark and is on for goal, when it should have been a free out! And others will have better examples. It would nearly want to be a hurricane for Cluxton to be able to land the ball to the full forward. Wait and see how it goes before people start going mental. As for the black card I think its fine. Any of the matches i've been at people have been screaming for the black card for nothing fouls. People need to know the rules. Also most issues are with the black card are when they are not given as opposed to when they are given. I'd rather a ref err on the side of caution and not end a players day early if unsure. I wonder what we gave out about before the black card? Reds not being given etc. Depends where the FF is and while unlikely, I think my general point is valid. The ref admitted he got a black card wrong in this years AI final and the lucky side won by the minimum so it could have determined the outcome, so the issue is not the rules but the implementation and nobody can argue that while refs have a hard job, they have let us down badly here. Until this is rectified the introducing of further monumental rules is creating a bigger mess to untangle down the road.
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Post by ciarrailar on Mar 14, 2017 21:34:45 GMT
Can't score from a "Mark" and the player who fields it must take the kick within 5 secs Thanks for clarifying that. The five second rule is wishy washy - bit like the number of steps. However scoring is very definitive. Does the mark kick have to go a particular distance? The winner of the mark can score from the resulting kick.. If the mark winner were to be injured in the process of winning the mark, another player can take the kick but that player cannot score with that kick..
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Post by ciarrailar on Mar 14, 2017 21:45:57 GMT
I Just imagine Cluxton or the like on a windy day, lands the ball on his high fielder FF and who when ascending pushed a wee laddo in the back of which the ref was blindsided and the umpires broke into their usual silence, big FF gets his mark and is on for goal, when it should have been a free out! And others will have better examples. It would nearly want to be a hurricane for Cluxton to be able to land the ball to the full forward. Wait and see how it goes before people start going mental. As for the black card I think its fine. Any of the matches i've been at people have been screaming for the black card for nothing fouls. People need to know the rules. Also most issues are with the black card are when they are not given as opposed to when they are given. I'd rather a ref err on the side of caution and not end a players day early if unsure. I wonder what we gave out about before the black card? Reds not being given etc. I think the main issue that people seem to forget about with the black card is that the ref has to make a split second call on whether an action was deliberate or not. Deliberate pull down, deliberate body collide, deliberate trip..... Players are cute nowadays. They drop to the deck at the merest tug on a jersey, knowing this gives the ref a decision to make with supporters shouting for blood.... Players need to man up and play with more integrity and not constantly look for the edge to get their opponent sent off..... a jersey pull pull is a noting as far as I know but you have mentors and supporters shouting for black because their player hit the deck.... We need more integrity in the game.
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Post by kerrygold on Mar 15, 2017 8:49:09 GMT
It would nearly want to be a hurricane for Cluxton to be able to land the ball to the full forward. Wait and see how it goes before people start going mental. As for the black card I think its fine. Any of the matches i've been at people have been screaming for the black card for nothing fouls. People need to know the rules. Also most issues are with the black card are when they are not given as opposed to when they are given. I'd rather a ref err on the side of caution and not end a players day early if unsure. I wonder what we gave out about before the black card? Reds not being given etc. I think the main issue that people seem to forget about with the black card is that the ref has to make a split second call on whether an action was deliberate or not. Deliberate pull down, deliberate body collide, deliberate trip..... Players are cute nowadays. They drop to the deck at the merest tug on a jersey, knowing this gives the ref a decision to make with supporters shouting for blood.... Players need to man up and play with more integrity and not constantly look for the edge to get their opponent sent off..... a jersey pull pull is a noting as far as I know but you have mentors and supporters shouting for black because their player hit the deck.... We need more integrity in the game. Surely the black card lost its integrity once and for all in the replayed All-Ireland final last year with the Small & Keegan incidents if it hadn't already done so? It is not governable at the discretion of a split second refereeing decision.
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Post by ciarrailar on Mar 15, 2017 9:17:02 GMT
I think the main issue that people seem to forget about with the black card is that the ref has to make a split second call on whether an action was deliberate or not. Deliberate pull down, deliberate body collide, deliberate trip..... Players are cute nowadays. They drop to the deck at the merest tug on a jersey, knowing this gives the ref a decision to make with supporters shouting for blood.... Players need to man up and play with more integrity and not constantly look for the edge to get their opponent sent off..... a jersey pull pull is a noting as far as I know but you have mentors and supporters shouting for black because their player hit the deck.... We need more integrity in the game. Surely the black card lost its integrity once and for all in the replayed All-Ireland final last year with the Small & Keegan incidents if it hadn't already done so? It is not governable at the discretion of a split second refereeing decision. I disagree. Every rule is at the discretion of the referee and by discretion, I mean interpretation..... The trouble is that the referee needs to be strong enough to make the tough decision and in that case with small, you are only 10 mins into the match and in my opinion, the referee bottled it. That's not a fault of the rule..... The rule is perfectly fine if it is enforced properly and consistently across the board. Some referees use the rules like an a la carte menu and pick and choose which rules they will apply and which ones they will let lads away with. This causes most of the frustration when you have no consistency. Referees need to be coached properly and told not to worry about the consequences of a decision as long as the decision is the correct one!
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Post by kerrygold on Mar 15, 2017 9:31:01 GMT
Surely the black card lost its integrity once and for all in the replayed All-Ireland final last year with the Small & Keegan incidents if it hadn't already done so? It is not governable at the discretion of a split second refereeing decision. I disagree. Every rule is at the discretion of the referee and by discretion, I mean interpretation..... The trouble is that the referee needs to be strong enough to make the tough decision and in that case with small, you are only 10 mins into the match and in my opinion, the referee bottled it. That's not a fault of the rule..... The rule is perfectly fine if it is enforced properly and consistently across the board. Some referees use the rules like an a la carte menu and pick and choose which rules they will apply and which ones they will let lads away with. This causes most of the frustration when you have no consistency. Referees need to be coached properly and told not to worry about the consequences of a decision as long as the decision is the correct one! And your interpretation of the Keegan black carding?
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Post by Mickmack on Mar 15, 2017 10:52:11 GMT
I think the main issue that people seem to forget about with the black card is that the ref has to make a split second call on whether an action was deliberate or not. Deliberate pull down, deliberate body collide, deliberate trip..... Players are cute nowadays. They drop to the deck at the merest tug on a jersey, knowing this gives the ref a decision to make with supporters shouting for blood.... Players need to man up and play with more integrity and not constantly look for the edge to get their opponent sent off..... a jersey pull pull is a noting as far as I know but you have mentors and supporters shouting for black because their player hit the deck.... We need more integrity in the game. Surely the black card lost its integrity once and for all in the replayed All-Ireland final last year with the Small & Keegan incidents if it hadn't already done so? It is not governable at the discretion of a split second refereeing decision. Maurice deegans split second refereeing decision was that it was not a black card. He indicated to connolly that it was a jersey tug and to get away. Then he seems to listen into his earpiece and all of a sudden twas a black card. If twas coldrick on the sideline...then how did he miss the john small incident. Coldrick is a worrysome presence at these high profile matches
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Post by ciarrailar on Mar 15, 2017 22:07:06 GMT
I disagree. Every rule is at the discretion of the referee and by discretion, I mean interpretation..... The trouble is that the referee needs to be strong enough to make the tough decision and in that case with small, you are only 10 mins into the match and in my opinion, the referee bottled it. That's not a fault of the rule..... The rule is perfectly fine if it is enforced properly and consistently across the board. Some referees use the rules like an a la carte menu and pick and choose which rules they will apply and which ones they will let lads away with. This causes most of the frustration when you have no consistency. Referees need to be coached properly and told not to worry about the consequences of a decision as long as the decision is the correct one! And your interpretation of the Keegan black carding? Keegan's incident was never black. As Mickmack says, Deegan actually indicated to the Dublin players to get away it was only a jersey pull... Then takes his time and inexplicably gives black.... Maddening decision.... Dublin were baying for blood and Deegan wasn't strong enough to stand up to them.
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Aodhan
Senior Member
Posts: 792
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Post by Aodhan on Mar 15, 2017 22:28:20 GMT
And your interpretation of the Keegan black carding? Keegan's incident was never black. As Mickmack says, Deegan actually indicated to the Dublin players to get away it was only a jersey pull... Then takes his time and inexplicably gives black.... Maddening decision.... Dublin were baying for blood and Deegan wasn't strong enough to stand up to them. Should Connolly have received a black card so for cheating/diving?
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Post by kerrygold on Mar 15, 2017 23:18:15 GMT
And your interpretation of the Keegan black carding? Keegan's incident was never black. As Mickmack says, Deegan actually indicated to the Dublin players to get away it was only a jersey pull... Then takes his time and inexplicably gives black.... Maddening decision.... Dublin were baying for blood and Deegan wasn't strong enough to stand up to them. And you still think the black card retains its integrity after that incident as questioned in an earlier post above?
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Mar 15, 2017 23:31:38 GMT
Keegan's incident was never black. As Mickmack says, Deegan actually indicated to the Dublin players to get away it was only a jersey pull... Then takes his time and inexplicably gives black.... Maddening decision.... Dublin were baying for blood and Deegan wasn't strong enough to stand up to them. Should Connolly have received a black card so for cheating/diving? Diving is not a black card offence.
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Aodhan
Senior Member
Posts: 792
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Post by Aodhan on Mar 16, 2017 1:04:35 GMT
Should Connolly have received a black card so for cheating/diving? Diving is not a black card offence. It must be a yellow card offense so if the intention of the dive is to get the opponent black carded. Kevin McLouglin did likewise to get Jonathan Lyne black carded in the recent league game. When he felt the pull he took a dive. Just another reason of many why the black card needs to be abolished.
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Post by ciarrailar on Mar 16, 2017 11:51:11 GMT
Keegan's incident was never black. As Mickmack says, Deegan actually indicated to the Dublin players to get away it was only a jersey pull... Then takes his time and inexplicably gives black.... Maddening decision.... Dublin were baying for blood and Deegan wasn't strong enough to stand up to them. Should Connolly have received a black card so for cheating/diving? No, can't give black for that. Wouldn't say he dived, but he went down easy. It was a foul by Keegan but definitely not a black card.
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Post by ciarrailar on Mar 16, 2017 11:55:25 GMT
Keegan's incident was never black. As Mickmack says, Deegan actually indicated to the Dublin players to get away it was only a jersey pull... Then takes his time and inexplicably gives black.... Maddening decision.... Dublin were baying for blood and Deegan wasn't strong enough to stand up to them. And you still think the black card retains its integrity after that incident as questioned in an earlier post above? The integrity of the black card is fine.... The referee is the one who made the decision...... I'm not going to question the integrity of the referee though as there's a lot going on to try and manage in those matches.mits a heated situation with hundreds of thousands watching so the pressure is on.... It was the wrong call on this occasion but he obviously got info from the sideline...
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Post by ciarrailar on Mar 16, 2017 11:56:54 GMT
Diving is not a black card offence. It must be a yellow card offense so if the intention of the dive is to get the opponent black carded. Kevin McLouglin did likewise to get Jonathan Lyne black carded in the recent league game. When he felt the pull he took a dive. Just another reason of many why the black card needs to be abolished. Black card doesn't need to be abolished. Players need to play with more integrity!
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Post by kerrygold on Mar 16, 2017 13:29:29 GMT
And you still think the black card retains its integrity after that incident as questioned in an earlier post above? The integrity of the black card is fine.... The referee is the one who made the decision...... I'm not going to question the integrity of the referee though as there's a lot going on to try and manage in those matches.mits a heated situation with hundreds of thousands watching so the pressure is on.... It was the wrong call on this occasion but he obviously got info from the sideline... That is not good enough when it incorrectly takes one of the main players out of the biggest game of the year. The black card is critically flawed and should be stood down in favour of an 8 minute sin bin.
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Post by kerrygold on Mar 16, 2017 13:32:54 GMT
It must be a yellow card offense so if the intention of the dive is to get the opponent black carded. Kevin McLouglin did likewise to get Jonathan Lyne black carded in the recent league game. When he felt the pull he took a dive. Just another reason of many why the black card needs to be abolished. Black card doesn't need to be abolished. Players need to play with more integrity! Players are not going to play with integrity, it should be abolished.
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Post by ciarrailar on Mar 17, 2017 0:19:43 GMT
The integrity of the black card is fine.... The referee is the one who made the decision...... I'm not going to question the integrity of the referee though as there's a lot going on to try and manage in those matches.mits a heated situation with hundreds of thousands watching so the pressure is on.... It was the wrong call on this occasion but he obviously got info from the sideline... That is not good enough when it incorrectly takes one of the main players out of the biggest game of the year. The black card is critically flawed and should be stood down in favour of an 8 minute sin bin. The referee made that call..... That's like saying a guy got sin binned in the wrong at a crucial point in the game. The black card is fine but refs need to use it more consistently
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