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Post by Ard Mhacha on Oct 6, 2015 1:05:58 GMT
All sounds complicated and a League linked to the Championship heavy's the load and lengthens the journey for amateur sportsmen who have to have day jobs, if they are lucky enough. Here's a simple solution; 1. League stays as it is, useful for blooding new recruits, and resting and repairing veterans. 2. Losers at various stages in the provinces grouped together for separate All Ireland Competition. It would be compatible with as much as the backdoor system as we wanted to keep and Dropout would be determined by the level at which a County has no hope of Sam success in a given year. So say all 1st and 2nd Round losers are automatically enter say a Dermot Earley All Ireland Competition of say 4 x 2 counties. 3rd and 4th Round losers go into say a Paidí O'Shea All Ireland Competition and so on. This also eliminates Longford v Dublin scenarios and improves the standard with more competitive games as teams are more closely matched and the Knockout consequence is somewhat restored. Critically it ensures that any team in any given year can win Sam, so breakthroughs are accommodated and that dream at the outset is preserved, while it also stops good money going after bad when weak teams face prevailing stalwarts. So you'd have more games of say Longford v Louth, Leitrim v say Limerick, etc while good teams would only meet each other as they progress. So you'd have 4 AI Final competitions and we know how important it was for Kerry Hurlers to win a Christy Ring this year. That only a few teams will win Sam shouldn't mean others never get any silverware in their careers. This structure even opens the possibility of an enhancement to the later stage back door as Knockouts would be over sooner; could the winners of Knockout competitions re-enter through the backdoor, i.e. 2nd chance of a Breakthrough team, maybe a team that found it's form from playing equally matched opponents progressively, Tyrone winning Sam through 10 backdoor games is a good example. If the same was applied to Minors it would enable the GAA to compete better with other codes. I have always thought of this as the solution and it is lower risk than other proposals that are bound to have unintended consequences and teething issues. Over to mo chairde GAA for analysis!! League needs to mean something otherwise what's the point? For fans or players? Some sort of seeding is needed otherwise it should be scrapped as it's a meaningless exercise. As for the your c'ship - if say, Donegal met Tyrone first round of Ulster (two potential AI winners), one goes out, they're in the lowest ranked B competition? That doesn't make sense. It suits big guns in The other provinces as the top 2 or 3 will always rise to the top no matter what the format. I think Jim McG's idea is also lopsided too. Basically provincial c'ship form dictates your seeding for a champions league style group. Again, say Donegal draw Tyrone in preliminary in Ulster (as in 2015), say Donegal lose and therefore ranked poorly for the group stage. Whereas Waterford might get to a Munster semi and be ranked ahead of Donegal. Again, doesn't make sense as you're being punished for being in a competitive province. |
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Post by onlykerry on Oct 6, 2015 9:17:06 GMT
Re-jigging the format will do little to change the final outcome - need to start at the grass roots level and develop the sport in the weaker counties. Changing the competition format expecting it to give more competitive games is failing to understand that underage development and funding are the two cornerstones on which success is built.
No re-arranging the chairs on the deck of the titanic will stop the ship from sinking - fix the bloody hole.
Stepping stone approach with serious financial support for counties that make an effort in B and C championships.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Oct 6, 2015 10:23:32 GMT
All sounds complicated and a League linked to the Championship heavy's the load and lengthens the journey for amateur sportsmen who have to have day jobs, if they are lucky enough. Here's a simple solution; 1. League stays as it is, useful for blooding new recruits, and resting and repairing veterans. 2. Losers at various stages in the provinces grouped together for separate All Ireland Competition. It would be compatible with as much as the backdoor system as we wanted to keep and Dropout would be determined by the level at which a County has no hope of Sam success in a given year. So say all 1st and 2nd Round losers are automatically enter say a Dermot Earley All Ireland Competition of say 4 x 2 counties. 3rd and 4th Round losers go into say a Paidí O'Shea All Ireland Competition and so on. This also eliminates Longford v Dublin scenarios and improves the standard with more competitive games as teams are more closely matched and the Knockout consequence is somewhat restored. Critically it ensures that any team in any given year can win Sam, so breakthroughs are accommodated and that dream at the outset is preserved, while it also stops good money going after bad when weak teams face prevailing stalwarts. So you'd have more games of say Longford v Louth, Leitrim v say Limerick, etc while good teams would only meet each other as they progress. So you'd have 4 AI Final competitions and we know how important it was for Kerry Hurlers to win a Christy Ring this year. That only a few teams will win Sam shouldn't mean others never get any silverware in their careers. This structure even opens the possibility of an enhancement to the later stage back door as Knockouts would be over sooner; could the winners of Knockout competitions re-enter through the backdoor, i.e. 2nd chance of a Breakthrough team, maybe a team that found it's form from playing equally matched opponents progressively, Tyrone winning Sam through 10 backdoor games is a good example. If the same was applied to Minors it would enable the GAA to compete better with other codes. I have always thought of this as the solution and it is lower risk than other proposals that are bound to have unintended consequences and teething issues. Over to mo chairde GAA for analysis!! League needs to mean something otherwise what's the point? For fans or players? Some sort of seeding is needed otherwise it should be scrapped as it's a meaningless exercise. As for the your c'ship - if say, Donegal met Tyrone first round of Ulster (two potential AI winners), one goes out, they're in the lowest ranked B competition? That doesn't make sense. It suits big guns in The other provinces as the top 2 or 3 will always rise to the top no matter what the format. I think Jim McG's idea is also lopsided too. Basically provincial c'ship form dictates your seeding for a champions league style group. Again, say Donegal draw Tyrone in preliminary in Ulster (as in 2015), say Donegal lose and therefore ranked poorly for the group stage. Whereas Waterford might get to a Munster semi and be ranked ahead of Donegal. Again, doesn't make sense as you're being punished for being in a competitive province. Under McG's suggestion, if Tyrone or Donegal are so hot they should go off and win the second tier competition --- this will qualify them for the year after. I do think they should move to N, S, E & W --- the imbalance in numbers isn't good at all. |
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Post by ballynamona on Oct 6, 2015 12:12:45 GMT
If the Jim McGuinness suggestion was adopted, provinces could seed their championships. They would not need to be too rigid, but Ulster for example could ensure the top few teams would not go into the Preliminary Round.
I am sceptical about moving counties around. Who do you think would move? Maybe this:
Connacht: gain Donegal, Longford
Munster: gain Laois, Wexford.
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Post by Ballyfireside on Oct 6, 2015 15:47:18 GMT
League needs to mean something otherwise what's the point? For fans or players? Some sort of seeding is needed otherwise it should be scrapped as it's a meaningless exercise. As for the your c'ship - if say, Donegal met Tyrone first round of Ulster (two potential AI winners), one goes out, they're in the lowest ranked B competition? That doesn't make sense. It suits big guns in The other provinces as the top 2 or 3 will always rise to the top no matter what the format. I think Jim McG's idea is also lopsided too. Basically provincial c'ship form dictates your seeding for a champions league style group. Again, say Donegal draw Tyrone in preliminary in Ulster (as in 2015), say Donegal lose and therefore ranked poorly for the group stage. Whereas Waterford might get to a Munster semi and be ranked ahead of Donegal. Again, doesn't make sense as you're being punished for being in a competitive province. Under McG's suggestion, if Tyrone or Donegal are so hot they should go off and win the second tier competition --- this will qualify them for the year after. I do think they should move to N, S, E & W --- the imbalance in numbers isn't good at all. Apologies for an omission on my part. Seedings are key, in both League AND Championship, and The League system appears to be okish overall. Munster have it right in that there is little point in Kerry playing say Clare in the 1st round, no more Donegal should face Tyrone. Let weaker teams play each other and nothing beats competitive game practice and this gives them every advantage when they come up against the stalwarts, and it also preserves the route to Sam for teams making a breakthrough out of the blue. My proposition also solves the Ulster problem in that more of their teams will win silver and outside of Ulster if they are good enough. And yes, the beaten AI finalists mightn't have any silverware whereas say the winner of a Paidi or Earley Cup could potentially have a provincial aswell, i.e. two cups, maybe three if they won their division of the League. That would have an enormous impact on solving the structural inequality and if Kerry hurlers winning silverware in '15 is anything to go by then the GAA would be reinvigorated instantly. There is little downside risk with this plan as the changes are smart tweaks that have critical, significant and immediate effect. Hurling already has multiple All Ireland competitions so pitfalls are forewarned. The only disadvantage is that the GAA like to have a big derby 'kickstart' clashes to get the Championship going each year but that means losing a top team as happened with Tyrone last year. We can't have it everyway and what the GAA coffers might lose there, they would gain in having 4 extra AI semis and 2 extra finals - 8 quarter finals? Of course the domino injection effect of spirit to weaker teams would help regenerate rural Ireland. McGuinness's proposition wouldn't be as flexible and there would be upheaval, it couldn't happen anyway as counties wouldn't move, Galway hurlers was a very rare exception and look at how long that took, and it was only a tweak as opposed to a system change. Now I am no more an expert than anyone and if the GAA adopt it then I want a lifetime entitlement to all matches at HQ, and not a birds nest seat, ah just behind the podium in the Hogan will do nicely where I can welcome my chairde Chiarrai annually! |
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Post by donegalman on Oct 6, 2015 20:13:48 GMT
If the Jim McGuinness suggestion was adopted, provinces could seed their championships. They would not need to be too rigid, but Ulster for example could ensure the top few teams would not go into the Preliminary Round. I am sceptical about moving counties around. Who do you think would move? Maybe this: Connacht: gain Donegal, Longford Munster: gain Laois, Wexford. Rotate the counties. I dont think tht laois nor wexford would benefit from playing in munster any more than munster would benefit having them. I think that if they were there every 6 years, in their turn, it would work. It would be a great thing for donegal or any other ulster county to share a slot in connaught, but it also would have to rotate. It means a lot for counties in ulster to compete there, missing a year now and again would be tolerable. The problem with the championship is that it doesnt come to life until late in the summer, but it could if there were more counties involved head to head earlier in the year in meaningful fixtures. Dublin v Kerry or cork in killarney, cork, or croke park in a munster fixture at the beginning of july or the end of june would benefit the game no end. Even meath or kildare in munster could liven up their own game as well as allow smaller teams in leinster to try and get to a leinster final in their absence. The game would grow. |
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Post by kerrygold on Oct 6, 2015 20:47:25 GMT
If the Jim McGuinness suggestion was adopted, provinces could seed their championships. They would not need to be too rigid, but Ulster for example could ensure the top few teams would not go into the Preliminary Round. I am sceptical about moving counties around. Who do you think would move? Maybe this: Connacht: gain Donegal, Longford Munster: gain Laois, Wexford. Rotate the counties. I dont think tht laois nor wexford would benefit from playing in munster any more than munster would benefit having them. I think that if they were there every 6 years, in their turn, it would work. It would be a great thing for donegal or any other ulster county to share a slot in connaught, but it also would have to rotate. It means a lot for counties in ulster to compete there, missing a year now and again would be tolerable. The problem with the championship is that it doesnt come to life until late in the summer, but it could if there were more counties involved head to head earlier in the year in meaningful fixtures. Dublin v Kerry or cork in killarney, cork, or croke park in a munster fixture at the beginning of july or the end of june would benefit the game no end. Even meath or kildare in munster could liven up their own game as well as allow smaller teams in leinster to try and get to a leinster final in their absence. The game would grow. Fair play, nail on head. Fully agree, 100% That is the vision the GAA family needs to get it's head around. |
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Post by wayupnorth on Oct 7, 2015 5:41:06 GMT
Rotate the counties. I dont think tht laois nor wexford would benefit from playing in munster any more than munster would benefit having them. I think that if they were there every 6 years, in their turn, it would work. It would be a great thing for donegal or any other ulster county to share a slot in connaught, but it also would have to rotate. It means a lot for counties in ulster to compete there, missing a year now and again would be tolerable. The problem with the championship is that it doesnt come to life until late in the summer, but it could if there were more counties involved head to head earlier in the year in meaningful fixtures. Dublin v Kerry or cork in killarney, cork, or croke park in a munster fixture at the beginning of july or the end of june would benefit the game no end. Even meath or kildare in munster could liven up their own game as well as allow smaller teams in leinster to try and get to a leinster final in their absence. The game would grow. Fair play, nail on head. Fully agree, 100% That is the vision the GAA family needs to get it's head around. I really think you have come up with a great idea here and it only requires a small tweak to the Championship. People may complain about travelling but the worst trip would be Antrim to Galway in Connaught and Louth to Kerry in Munster. The only drawback that I can see is that Dublin would add Connaught and Munster titles to their belts but in their absence every six years another Leinster county would be guaranteed a Leinster. Are you listening GAA management? Let's make this happen! |
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Oct 7, 2015 6:08:23 GMT
Sorry folks but at the moment the Leinster council aren't going to let their golden goose - the Dubs fans - out of their sight for that long.
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Post by wayupnorth on Oct 7, 2015 6:47:22 GMT
Sorry folks but at the moment the Leinster council aren't going to let their golden goose - the Dubs fans - out of their sight for that long. It would only be one year in six which could make it as far away as 2022. And even in those years they would probably play most of the games in Croke anyway as the "weaker" counties would love to play there. As for the Leinster Council,the non-Dublin county reps should see this as a great advantage for their counties. |
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Post by donegalman on Oct 7, 2015 9:21:02 GMT
Sorry folks but at the moment the Leinster council aren't going to let their golden goose - the Dubs fans - out of their sight for that long. Good point, but there would be swings and roundabouts involved here. 1 Dublin would only compete every 6 years outside of leinster 2 Smaller counties would have more than plenty of support in semi final or final stages if they knew the fixture was winnable. 3 Dublin's support has been steadily and rapidly declining in the past few years, on account of their unrivaled success in leinster. There is no joy in it for their supporters any more, until the all ireland semi finals. 4 The short term losses of the leinster gaa would mean the long term gains of both their provincial attendances and those of munster. Dublin fans love travelling. They packed out thurles in 2001. They took a massive crowd to clones for a back door game v derry in 2004. Those of us who were old enough to remember cork in 1983 will remember their support that day. And of course it would bring out a huge crowd of cork/kerry/neutral supporters too. 5 If sky got a sniff of the potential gates and hype of these fixtures, there would be no turning back for the GAA, as they have lost the monopoly on decision making now that they are on board. I also think that the short term losses of the leinster gaa, more specifically the dublin gaa through gates, could be argued to be thus balanced, on account of the massive support in grants from the government over the past several years. |
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Post by kerrygold on Oct 7, 2015 9:25:25 GMT
Sorry folks but at the moment the Leinster council aren't going to let their golden goose - the Dubs fans - out of their sight for that long. It would only be one year in six which could make it as far away as 2022. And even in those years they would probably play most of the games in Croke anyway as the "weaker" counties would love to play there. As for the Leinster Council,the non-Dublin county reps should see this as a great advantage for their counties. The GPAs suggestion of no replays has huge merit. 70 minutes, two 10 minutes of extra time, two 5 minutes of extra extra time if required and then shots from the 50 to determine the winner if required. Saturday and Sundays set in stone throughout the year for club and county games. It would transform the fixtures lists. |
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Post by kerrygold on Oct 7, 2015 9:30:48 GMT
Sorry folks but at the moment the Leinster council aren't going to let their golden goose - the Dubs fans - out of their sight for that long. Good point, but there would be swings and roundabouts involved here. 1 Dublin would only compete every 6 years outside of leinster 2 Smaller counties would have more than plenty of support in semi final or final stages if they knew the fixture was winnable. 3 Dublin's support has been steadily and rapidly declining in the past few years, on account of their unrivaled success in leinster. There is no joy in it for their supporters any more, until the all ireland semi finals. 4 The short term losses of the leinster gaa would mean the long term gains of both their provincial attendances and those of munster. Dublin fans love travelling. They packed out thurles in 2001. They took a massive crowd to clones for a back door game v derry in 2004. Those of us who were old enough to remember cork in 1983 will remember their support that day. And of course it would bring out a huge crowd of cork/kerry/neutral supporters too. 5 If sky got a sniff of the potential gates and hype of these fixtures, there would be no turning back for the GAA, as they have lost the monopoly on decision making now that they are on board. I also think that the short term losses of the leinster gaa, more specifically the dublin gaa through gates, could be argued to be thus balanced, on account of the massive support in grants from the government over the past several years. Kerry defending their Munster title in Killarney against the Dubs would be mouth watering. It would bring 45,000 people to Killarney and a carnival samba beat to the streets. Agree re Sky, Croker have taken their hand off that particular boat and let it drift..............Eventually it will part fund a semi professional game! |
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Oct 7, 2015 11:01:40 GMT
Maybe get the Dubs out of Croke Park more than once a decade first. Baby steps.
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Post by ballynamona on Aug 3, 2016 17:47:12 GMT
I realise that people are somewhat weary of new Championship structures being proposed. At the same time one is badly needed for a variety of reasons, and I don’t think a single one proposed has properly caught the public imagination. I believe the Sean Kelly/Jim McGuinness idea is the best of what has made the mainstream media. It is probably the easiest to sell to the Provincial Councils, but I think it has some flaws.
The overall structure is one thing, but having a coherent football calendar for every player in every county is key.
My own contribution to the debate on this forum was a League/Championship idea some while back, but it was a bit complicated, and was aimed at trying, through playing the percentages, to alleviate the unequal gaps between games, without eliminating unequal groupings.
Having thought about things further, I have come up with the following. It is quite straightforward.
Structure
All-Ireland Qualifying Tournament
The NFL is replaced by a qualifying tournament for the All-Ireland Championship.
Instead of the hierarchical NFL divisional structure; the All-Ireland Qualifying tournament will contain seeded ‘mixed ability’ groups. There are 4 groups of 8 teams. All groups have equal status.
1st round of All-Ireland Qualifiers to commence around March 1.
As there is no NFL, there is no League title.
Provincial Championships
4 groupings of 8 teams.
London and New York remain in Connacht, play-off every year to be the 6th team.
1 ‘extra’ team in Ulster is rotated into Connacht every year.
3 ‘extra’ teams in Leinster are rotated into Connacht (1) and Munster (2) every year.
The expectation is that the Provincial Championships will commence in the latter half of the All-Ireland Qualifiers and to be played in tandem, i.e. on alternate weekends.
It is expected that they will be played off on a knock-out basis, but it will be up to the respective Provincial Councils to organise, on the proviso that the Provincial Finals must be played before the last round of the All-Ireland Qualifiers.
The following is expected:
Provincial Quarters to be played in between AIQ Round 4 and AIQ Round 5 (guideline)
Provincial Semis to be played in between AIQ Round 5 and AIQ Round 6 (guideline)
Provincial Finals to be played before AIQ Round 7 (mandatory)
Extra time to be played in every drawn Provincial Championship game.
All 4 Provincial Finals to be played over the 3 days of the May Bank Holiday Weekend.
Championship ‘Proper’ Format (Senior and Intermediate)
16 teams placed in 4 groups of 4. Provincial Winners all top seeds in their groups. All other teams will be seeded based on placings in the All-Ireland Qualifiers.
Top 2 in each group play in Quarter Finals. Top team in each group to get choice of venue for AI QF.
Split
16 teams compete for All-Ireland Senior (Sam Maguire Cup)
16 teams compete for All-Ireland Intermediate (name to be decided). Possibly best to simply call it the Intermediate for a few years and see if it can become regarded as worthwhile before putting a name on it.
Senior Championship entrants
8 from All-Ireland Qualifying Tournament. Top 2 teams from each qualifying groups
8 from Provincial Route, i.e. all finalists.
If there is overlap between provincial finalists and top 2, then next places go to best 3rd placed teams from qualifying groups (ranked by points and scoring difference).
Intermediate Championship entrants
16 remaining teams.
Championships proper to be commenced from around May 20 or so.
All-Ireland Intermediate Championship to be played on alternate weekends from Senior Championship where possible, particularly in the latter stages. This may suggest that it doesn’t have parity of esteem, but it never will totally, and this way it will get more coverage. Winners of ‘B’ Championship to be guaranteed one of the top 8 seedings in the following years NFL. This gives a tangible reward for winning it, i.e. get to avoid the big guns when trying to qualify for the top 16.
All-Ireland Final to be completed by the end of August.
Pros:
• This format will have the top teams playing each other at the business end of the Championship. The Group stages in the championship proper are integral to this. All-Ireland Quarter Finals are more likely to involve the top 8 teams in the country than if a pure knockout structure is adapted. This is the best way of giving teams a number of meaningful, championship games at the height of summer.
• The two routes give every county two chances of qualifying for the All-Ireland Senior Championship proper.
• Every county will have the same recovery time between their last AIQ game and their first championship ‘proper’ game.
• Because of the group stages in the Championship proper, every county will have at least one home championship game, and many will have two. Counties that did not have a home game in their province will be first in line to get a second home game in the group stage.
• ‘Mixed ability’ qualifying may help to alleviate the growing inequality in the game, by comparison with the current system of 4 hierarchical divisions.
• ‘Mixed ability’ groups help to prevent the ghettoisation of weaker counties. Current ‘Division 4’ teams will learn more early in the year, which is good preparation for playing a big gun in the Provincial Championships, or in the Championship proper. Also it less likely that weaker counties will be stuck playing the same small number of teams over and over again (which is why the Tommy Murphy Cup was ill-conceived).
• ‘Mixed ability’ groups would encourage people from weaker counties to go to see their teams during the qualifying stage, if they are playing a big name county. It may lead to them continuing their support during the Championship proper.N.B. The one year in the early 90s that the mixed ability NFL structure was used (to re-format from three divisions back to 4) attendances rose sharply, and many of the weaker counties were happy with it.
• Every team has a fresh start every year. If some county has an outstanding minor team coming through, they do not need to have an arduous slog from Division 4 over several years to make progress, although a low seeding may put them in a tough qualifying group.
• This format respects the tradition of the Provincial Championships as trophies worth winning, and incentivises progress in them.
• The above does not expressly mention club players throughout, but is designed with them in mind. It eliminates the long lay-offs between inter-county games, where club activity in practice is restricted. It will be possible for counties to schedule designated club weekends from a long way out. There should be enough designated club activity weekends scheduled so that all 32 counties have completed their County Championship Quarter-Finals before the end of August. September could be designated for completing County Championships; October for Provincial Clubs; November for All-Ireland Clubs. That would give a decent closed season for absolutely everyone, and ensure no county is without club-tied players during the qualifiers. December and January should have zero GAA activity. The McGrath Cup type competitions could begin at the start of February.
Cons:
• No NFL title means one less trophy to target. Most counties seem to prize a Provincial title far above the NFL, and League semi-finals and finals would lead to delays and unequal recovery time between the end of the league and the start of the championship.
• No longer will the top 8 teams all play each other in the ‘traditional’ league phase. This is counterbalanced as detailed above.
• No promotion or relegation between divisions in the sense that we are used to. This could lead to somewhat meaningless games during the Qualifying tournament. To alleviate this somewhat, the seeding for the Group stages of the Championship proper will be based on placings in the qualifying groups.
• Definite potential for some very one-sided qualifying games, and for a weak team to be hammered multiple times.
• Teams from the weaker/lop-sided provinces could be seen as advantaged, as merely reaching a Provincial Final means that they will get to the top 16. The rotation into those Provinces would reduce the likelihood of that.
• Risk of Provincial Finals being ‘dead rubbers’ for qualification as both teams are guaranteed a place in the top 2 of their groups. The Provincial Competitions could be played off earlier to guard against that, but that could lead to a team being qualified for the Sam Maguire Cup and having multiple qualifying games left, which is undesirable. A Provincial Final should always be seen as worth winning in any case.
• It could be very difficult to persuade Provincial Councils (especially Ulster) to run off their Provincial Championships as outlined here. They may want to elongate it. To counter-act this, the GAA should impose a punitive fine on any Provincial Council who does not play their Provincial Final before the end of the All-Ireland Qualifying. That will allow any province to start their championship early if they so wish.
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Post by ballynamona on Aug 4, 2016 11:26:53 GMT
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Post by buck02 on Aug 4, 2016 12:28:50 GMT
Probably favours the stronger counties doesnt it. Cuts out the risk of Dublin or Kerry or Mayo claiming an easy provincial title only to be caught by a team with a bit of momentum from the qualifiers at quarter final stage. |
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Post by inforthebreaks on Aug 4, 2016 12:34:20 GMT
on first glance, and listening to padraig duffy just now on the radio i think it has a chance. Makes sense that the provincial winners will have home advanatge in one of their group games. Not sure though replacing the 1/4 finals by a round robin will meet universal approval. as long as they are run week after week I don't have any great objection to them. it would be a massive incentive for smaller teams to make the group stage. Clare this year as their reward for making the 1/4 final got a trouncing from kerry. in this new set up they'd have an extra 2 games, albeit taking the do or die element further out of it. I suppose thats the biggest downfall, that there would now only be two knockout games in the championship, semi final and final. I definitely support the abolishing of replays. |
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Post by givehimaball on Aug 4, 2016 13:57:48 GMT
Not a hope of it getting past Congress - the major beneficiaries are the top teams but this actively damages the chances of the 2nd tier counties of getting to a semi-final and does nothing for the weakest tier. |
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Post by givehimaball on Aug 4, 2016 14:04:04 GMT
Clare this year as their reward for making the 1/4 final got a trouncing from kerry. in this new set up they'd have an extra 2 games, albeit taking the do or die element further out of it. 2 more games against 2 from Dublin, Donegal, Tyrone, Mayo, Tipp or Galway following on from the beating by Kerry. If the draw went against them they could easily be adding 2 more bad beatings to the 2 beatings by Kerry - that's going to do nothing good for football in Clare. For Tipp they would be going from a situation where after beating Galway they are into a semi-final, they would have 2 more games with the opposition being drawn from Dublin, Donegal, Tyrone, Mayo, Kerry or Galway. The group stages would reduce the odds of teams like them, in the 2nd/3rd bracket, getting into the semi significantly. |
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Post by onlykerry on Aug 4, 2016 14:48:42 GMT
The whole thing is bonkers because it is built on faulty foundations - the qualifiers are a mess, particularly the early rounds where a multitude of meaningless games are played off in near empty stadiums taking up dates and geting in the way of club matches.
Make the league and provincial competitions count by giving them entry status in the new knock out AI of 16 counties. The 16 comprise of the four provincial winners, the finalists of the previous years B championship (for the counties that don't make the 16 that year) plus the best placed league counties not already qualified to bring the number to an even 16.
Open draw, straight knock out with extra time from there on out.
This gives 16 counties in the AI senior (should minimise the chance of mis-matches) and the others play in the B championship - reward for the B winners is €100k towards holiday fund and the finalists make the following years A competition.
We need to reduce the number of meaningless intercounty matches, freeing up the calendar for clubs not add 8 more games to an already crowded schedule.
For me championship is knockout football and not a competition filled with second chances and round robins.
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Post by buck02 on Aug 4, 2016 15:16:12 GMT
The document claimed that: "The new structure should increase commercial and broadcast income from the All-Ireland senior football championship. Seems that the combination of the proposed GPA payments and the miserable attendence a at HQ last weekend have rattled the beancounters. Monies will be ring fenced for the weaker counties, so that they continue to develop cannon fodder for the top 4-6 teams. 7 teams in the group stages get one home , one away and one at Croke Park. Dublin get 2 Home , 1 away I would prefer the abandonment of the back door system with provincial finalists entering the last 8. This at least would put the knock out element back into the earlier provincial rounds. Additional games on Sky (can see the Super 8 ads already) ensuring more empty unatmospheric stadia and they've already abandoned the historic Minor structure so that the new u20 competition has more appeal to a TV audience, waiting for the PGA golf to start. Personally I think that the GAA is now paying the price at the turnstiles for the last 10 years when a lot of children couldn't access or afford tickets for the semis and finals. Those children have grown up but never developed a passion for attending Croke Park games. €5 for a u16 ticket for the semi final (no price increase) for the last 10 years. No problem getting a ticket for a semi final. Dont know if an 8 year old missing an all ireland final would turn him or her off going to games 10 years later. |
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Post by inforthebreaks on Aug 4, 2016 15:19:55 GMT
Monies will be ring fenced for the weaker counties, so that they continue to develop cannon fodder for the top 4-6 teams. I would prefer the abandonment of the back door system with provincial finalists entering the last 8. This at least would put the knock out element back into the earlier provincial rounds. jsut on these two points.. the whole country is crying out that the money spread isnt done fairly.. too much goes to dublin etc. so you are saying that money shouldnt be ringfenced for weaker counties? that help shouldn't be given to them? so what do we do write them off altogether? how else can they stop being cannon fodder without investment and support?? And I too miss the cut and thrust of knock out championship football in the early rounds. but we are from kerry, we are lucky in that we can safely assume to have at the bare minimum two games in the munster championship. if Clare hadnt had a back door after kerry beating them we would not have seen their great run to the 1/4 finals. |
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seamo
Fanatical Member
Posts: 2,016
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Post by seamo on Aug 4, 2016 19:00:09 GMT
This does nothing to address the biggest issues. Season is too long and club game is being shunned.
These reforms just smack of greed, more intercounty games...same oul same oul from January to end of July.
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Post by wayupnorth on Aug 4, 2016 21:14:58 GMT
No! Too complicated and doesn't address the Club issue or the imbalance in the Provincials. I don't think there will be much appetite to attend the round robin games compared with the QFs where it's do or die for a place in the Semis. And we will still have the same old complaints about Kerry/Dublin/Mayo getting an easy ride to the round robin. Suppose the groupings were as this weekend and next:
Kerry/Clare/Donegal/Galway and
Dublin/Tyrone/Tipp/Mayo
(Two teams moved as presumably Provincial opponents couldn't be matched)
The likely winners would be
Kerry/Donegal and Dublin/Tyrone
If in that order the semis would be Kerry/Tyrone and Dublin/Donegal. Exciting matches no doubt but not much change for all that upheaval.
If they're serious about change they should at least address the Provincial issue by either moving to four 8 team "Provincials" or uncouple the provincials from the Championship. No need then to scrap the quarters.
Good proposal to get rid of the replays though which should go forward as a stand alone change.
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Post by ballynamona on Aug 5, 2016 9:29:24 GMT
This proposal is disappointing as it is clearly elitist. The people such as Sky Sports who want to get most from the “brand” would be very much in favour.
Personally, I think some group stages are the only way that counties can be provided with the run of games that they crave. But it should not just be for the final eight teams.
To be honest I would like to see the top 4 teams getting to the semi-finals, and am not hugely put out about this structure making it harder for a team to “do a Tipp”. To me the real issues are the long gaps between games, and the uneven numbers in the provinces.
The post I put up earlier in the week would have had group stages in the Championship proper for 32 counties. It was also designed to eliminate the discrepancies that exist.
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