Post by ballynamona on Jun 3, 2015 20:21:13 GMT
This conversation was taking over another thread.
As I have posted before, I feel that the Sean Kelly proposal is worth serious consideration. It may be an Irish solution to an Irish problem if that phrase isn't too tainted. I am not really in favour of making 4 championships of 8 teams to replace the Provincial Championships. Nor am I in favour of a 'Champions League' comp with 8 groups of 4, as you would have too many mismatches. The weakest teams would end up getting hammered multiple times.
However Utopian people's views may be, Provincial Councils are not going to vote themselves irrelevant. A Provincial Championship which had no link to the ultimate destination of the All-Ireland Championship would be irrelevant. The Provincial Championships, imperfect though they are, have history and should not be jettisoned lightly. We have already moved away from pure knock-out, but the qualifiers are not really working properly.
To my mind, group stages are necessary to give teams a worthwhile number of games, i.e. to help with the training/games ratio. I don't favour round robins within the Provincial Championships, as there is too much disparity between the standards of the teams involved. Group stages belong later in the competition, once the teams have been split into two streams.
I assigned every team in the country a number based on their 2015 NFL finishing position. I went through all the 2015 Provincial Championships, taking in actual results to date. I predicted the winners of the games which have not been played. For simplicity, I assumed in each case that the highest ranking team from the NFL would win the game (immature perhaps, but I made an exception for Kerry v Cork).
Here's how I see the top 16/bottom 17 teams might end up if this structure was in place this year:
AI Senior FC Group Stage (16 teams)
Directly Qualified as Provincial Winners (seeded)
2 – Dublin. Leinster Champions
3 – Monaghan. Ulster Champions
5 – Mayo. Connacht Champions
6 – Kerry. Munster Champions
Directly Qualified as Provincial Runners-Up
1 – Cork. Defeated Munster Finalists.
4 – Donegal. Defeated Ulster Finalists
8 – Roscommon. Defeated Connacht Finalists.
11 – Meath. Defeated Leinster Finalists
Directly Qualified through League position.
7 – Down. Defeated in Ulster SF.
9 – Tyrone. Defeated in Ulster Preliminary Round.
10 – Derry. Defeated in Ulster QF.
12 – Galway – Defeated in Connacht SF.
Qualified after play-off
13 – Cavan. Defeated in Ulster QF. (beat 20- Sligo in play-off)
14 – Laois. Defeated in Leinster SF. (Defeated 19- Tipperary)
15 – Fermanagh. Defeated in Ulster SF (beat 18- Kildare in play-off)
16 – Armagh. Defeated in Ulster QF (beat 17- Westmeath in play-off)
In the first year, 8 places would be up for grabs through league position. In the 2nd and subsequent years, this would be reduced to 6, with the previous years All-Ireland Intermediate (Tommy Murphy Cup) winners and runners-up qualifying for the top 16.
Play-offs would be a good idea for a few places to provide some interest and also to give some of the slightly weaker teams in this stream a game while Provincial Finals took place.
Provincial winners could be seeded in the 4 groups, with an open draw allocating the remaining 12 places. In order to ensure that there was a real reward for winning to win the Provincial finals, beyond the title, perhaps the Provincial Champs should get two home games in the round-robin.
Top 2 in each group go through to Quarter-Finals. Group winners could perhaps get a home quarter-final.
AI Intermediate Championship Group Stage (17 teams)
Qualified through being beaten in the play-off
17 – Westmeath – Defeated in Leinster SF; defeated in play-off by Armagh
18 - Kildare. Defeated in Leinster QF; defeated in play-off by Fermanagh
19 – Tipperary. Defeated in Munster SF; defeated in play-off by Laois.
20 – Sligo. Defeated in Connacht SF; defeated in play-off by Cavan
Qualified through early elimination from Provincials and League position
21 – Clare. Defeated in Munster SF.
22 – Limerick. Defeated in Munster QF.
23 – Longford. Defeated in Leinster QF.
24 – Offaly. Defeated in Leinster Preliminary Round.
25 - Louth. Defeated in Leinster Preliminary Round.
26 - Wexford. Defeated in Leinster QF.
27 - Antrim. Defeated in Ulster QF.
28 - Leitrim. Defeated in Connacht QF.
29 – Carlow. Defeated in Leinster Preliminary Round.
30 – Waterford. Defeated in Munster QF.
31 – Wicklow. Defeated in Leinster QF.
32 – London. Defeated in Connacht QF.
33 – New York. Defeated in Connacht Preliminary Round.
Play-off losers could be seeded. Top 2 in each group through to QFs. One group will have 5 teams.
I don't believe that a single county in this bottom 17 should turn their nose up at An All-Ireland Intermediate Championship, irrespective of past glories. They still have the opportunity to qualify for the Senior Champ through the province, and of course to win the Province. Getting to the AI IFC Final guarantees entry to the Senior Champ group stages the following year. The Tommy Murphy Cup in its last incarnation was like a stick to beat counties with (remember Division 4 teams were excluded from the qualifiers in favour of the Tommy Murphy Cup). This way, teams can play in their province, but also have a few meaningful summer games against teams at a similar level, with the chance of winning a trophy, and a tangible reward in the way of promotion.
In order to prevent defeated Provincial Preliminary Round/QF teams from waiting weeks for games, the Provincial Championships should reach the semi-final stage before the end of the league.
Club considerations must also be paramount. Another poster mentioned that there would be designated club weekends in every county, with players being released from the county panels to their clubs. That is an excellent idea.
Barring replays, this system ensures that every team has at least 4 Championship games in the summer.
I calculate the maximum number of games any county would need to play to win the All-Ireland would be 10 games.
As I have posted before, I feel that the Sean Kelly proposal is worth serious consideration. It may be an Irish solution to an Irish problem if that phrase isn't too tainted. I am not really in favour of making 4 championships of 8 teams to replace the Provincial Championships. Nor am I in favour of a 'Champions League' comp with 8 groups of 4, as you would have too many mismatches. The weakest teams would end up getting hammered multiple times.
However Utopian people's views may be, Provincial Councils are not going to vote themselves irrelevant. A Provincial Championship which had no link to the ultimate destination of the All-Ireland Championship would be irrelevant. The Provincial Championships, imperfect though they are, have history and should not be jettisoned lightly. We have already moved away from pure knock-out, but the qualifiers are not really working properly.
To my mind, group stages are necessary to give teams a worthwhile number of games, i.e. to help with the training/games ratio. I don't favour round robins within the Provincial Championships, as there is too much disparity between the standards of the teams involved. Group stages belong later in the competition, once the teams have been split into two streams.
I assigned every team in the country a number based on their 2015 NFL finishing position. I went through all the 2015 Provincial Championships, taking in actual results to date. I predicted the winners of the games which have not been played. For simplicity, I assumed in each case that the highest ranking team from the NFL would win the game (immature perhaps, but I made an exception for Kerry v Cork).
Here's how I see the top 16/bottom 17 teams might end up if this structure was in place this year:
AI Senior FC Group Stage (16 teams)
Directly Qualified as Provincial Winners (seeded)
2 – Dublin. Leinster Champions
3 – Monaghan. Ulster Champions
5 – Mayo. Connacht Champions
6 – Kerry. Munster Champions
Directly Qualified as Provincial Runners-Up
1 – Cork. Defeated Munster Finalists.
4 – Donegal. Defeated Ulster Finalists
8 – Roscommon. Defeated Connacht Finalists.
11 – Meath. Defeated Leinster Finalists
Directly Qualified through League position.
7 – Down. Defeated in Ulster SF.
9 – Tyrone. Defeated in Ulster Preliminary Round.
10 – Derry. Defeated in Ulster QF.
12 – Galway – Defeated in Connacht SF.
Qualified after play-off
13 – Cavan. Defeated in Ulster QF. (beat 20- Sligo in play-off)
14 – Laois. Defeated in Leinster SF. (Defeated 19- Tipperary)
15 – Fermanagh. Defeated in Ulster SF (beat 18- Kildare in play-off)
16 – Armagh. Defeated in Ulster QF (beat 17- Westmeath in play-off)
In the first year, 8 places would be up for grabs through league position. In the 2nd and subsequent years, this would be reduced to 6, with the previous years All-Ireland Intermediate (Tommy Murphy Cup) winners and runners-up qualifying for the top 16.
Play-offs would be a good idea for a few places to provide some interest and also to give some of the slightly weaker teams in this stream a game while Provincial Finals took place.
Provincial winners could be seeded in the 4 groups, with an open draw allocating the remaining 12 places. In order to ensure that there was a real reward for winning to win the Provincial finals, beyond the title, perhaps the Provincial Champs should get two home games in the round-robin.
Top 2 in each group go through to Quarter-Finals. Group winners could perhaps get a home quarter-final.
AI Intermediate Championship Group Stage (17 teams)
Qualified through being beaten in the play-off
17 – Westmeath – Defeated in Leinster SF; defeated in play-off by Armagh
18 - Kildare. Defeated in Leinster QF; defeated in play-off by Fermanagh
19 – Tipperary. Defeated in Munster SF; defeated in play-off by Laois.
20 – Sligo. Defeated in Connacht SF; defeated in play-off by Cavan
Qualified through early elimination from Provincials and League position
21 – Clare. Defeated in Munster SF.
22 – Limerick. Defeated in Munster QF.
23 – Longford. Defeated in Leinster QF.
24 – Offaly. Defeated in Leinster Preliminary Round.
25 - Louth. Defeated in Leinster Preliminary Round.
26 - Wexford. Defeated in Leinster QF.
27 - Antrim. Defeated in Ulster QF.
28 - Leitrim. Defeated in Connacht QF.
29 – Carlow. Defeated in Leinster Preliminary Round.
30 – Waterford. Defeated in Munster QF.
31 – Wicklow. Defeated in Leinster QF.
32 – London. Defeated in Connacht QF.
33 – New York. Defeated in Connacht Preliminary Round.
Play-off losers could be seeded. Top 2 in each group through to QFs. One group will have 5 teams.
I don't believe that a single county in this bottom 17 should turn their nose up at An All-Ireland Intermediate Championship, irrespective of past glories. They still have the opportunity to qualify for the Senior Champ through the province, and of course to win the Province. Getting to the AI IFC Final guarantees entry to the Senior Champ group stages the following year. The Tommy Murphy Cup in its last incarnation was like a stick to beat counties with (remember Division 4 teams were excluded from the qualifiers in favour of the Tommy Murphy Cup). This way, teams can play in their province, but also have a few meaningful summer games against teams at a similar level, with the chance of winning a trophy, and a tangible reward in the way of promotion.
In order to prevent defeated Provincial Preliminary Round/QF teams from waiting weeks for games, the Provincial Championships should reach the semi-final stage before the end of the league.
Club considerations must also be paramount. Another poster mentioned that there would be designated club weekends in every county, with players being released from the county panels to their clubs. That is an excellent idea.
Barring replays, this system ensures that every team has at least 4 Championship games in the summer.
I calculate the maximum number of games any county would need to play to win the All-Ireland would be 10 games.
