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Post by Mickmack on Jun 4, 2015 17:23:42 GMT
Have we a separate thread for competition structure? I fear we are in danger of all going of topic (again) from the subject of this thread. I cant ever understand this fixation about staying "on topic". So what if it evolves into something else. I accept that I am probably in a minority of one on this one .....I would say anyway. But its not like each topic has strict terms of reference. And its in the nature of conversation that topics evolve
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jun 4, 2015 22:13:01 GMT
I think if a conversation flows naturally even if not quite on topic then it can be ok to leave it go a while. I suppose if it takes over the thread, that's a different story.
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kot
Fanatical Member
Posts: 1,126
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Post by kot on Jun 5, 2015 10:14:43 GMT
Have we a separate thread for competition structure? I fear we are in danger of all going of topic (again) from the subject of this thread. I cant ever understand this fixation about staying "on topic". So what if it evolves into something else. I accept that I am probably in a minority of one on this one .....I would say anyway. But its not like each topic has strict terms of reference. And its in the nature of conversation that topics evolve I suppose it would be something if there was games coming up that whet the appetite. Derry & Down maybe to a degree, given the clashes they have had over the years. But Laois & Kildare, talk about 2 teams who have fallen into insignificance rapidly. A bit harsh, maybe but. . . .
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jun 5, 2015 11:06:51 GMT
Laois are going much better than Kildare, I feel.
Derry could well take Down, I think the Mournemen are in a bad place at the moment, despite their promotion to Div 1.
Armagh-Donegal should be a great clash the week after but I fancy Donegal quite strongly, I think Armagh let it slip in the Qtr final last year, either they learn alot or Donegal learnt more.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jun 5, 2015 11:32:57 GMT
Laois are going much better than Kildare, I feel. The bookies have Laois as favourites.
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 5, 2015 12:43:25 GMT
Laois are going much better than Kildare, I feel. The bookies have Laois as favourites. Either team will be swirled around like confetti at a wedding on a breezy day against the Dubs at home. It might be prudent to throw this game and travel the qualifiers road. A home tie in either Portlaoise or Newbridge might have some validity as tie. Hard game to call between these two perennial underachievers in the Leinster championship.A 50/50 game in my opinion.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jun 5, 2015 13:17:54 GMT
I would imagine quite a few teams would rather not take a hammering on their home patch, that would indeed be extremely demoralising. Laois played well last year but shipped heavily in the final 10 or 15 minutes. I think they have shown signs of some progress since then. If they beat Kildare they go into the qualifiers at a later stage, assuming they lose to Dublin. But still early enough to probably avoid a top team in their qualifier draw. Get the first qualifier win and further progress is very possible.
Of course what they really need is further competition guaranteed over the summer but there's no point in turning every post about games into bigger issue discussions. The fact is that once the All-I is over these days, just like in the 70s and early 80s, and to some extent in the noughties, for many in the very top counties the only really meaningful game they will look to in all likelihood will be either a Provincial Final or even not til the Qtr Finals. That's a gap of 10-11 months, in the eyes of the casual follower of inter-county games. But then we might as well have no discussion about games at all if we keep repeating that, and similar, related, or red-herring/non-issues in relation to every post.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Jun 5, 2015 13:34:35 GMT
Although I would never have rated them as highly as many once did, only a cad would claim that Kildare haven't disimproved.
I would like to put it on record that I take no pleasure from their plight and hope that the great fans of Kildare will see their senior team improve their football and hence results.
I would go further and say that it would be fantastic for Kildare to discover a rich vein of form and show that well-organised, footballing teams can and will upset the apple cart. Unfortunately my hunch is that they are neither organised nor footballing.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jun 5, 2015 14:21:05 GMT
I think Kildare went wrong from an organisational point of view and on top of that the whole Geeser thing knocked them back mentally even further. I went on record as saying that I didn't think KMcG had made them much better. And I stand by that, even though I think Geeser has many great qualities, and despite the fact that Kildare have disimproved since he left. I said at the time that I felt Kildare had wed themselves too much to a slavish belief in KMcG and his influence, especially by the time he left. That made the job of whoever came after impossible. It was clear to me that either Kildare weren't good enough to win Sam or Geeser didn't cut the mustard as a head coach since as far back as 2008. Or a bit of both. Tactically there were many signs of issues over his tenure. But clearly also they lacked a couple of killer forwards, especially with JD ending up in such a withdrawn role. Yet they came close to reaching an All-I final, though I will always argue they weren't unlucky to lose against Down. Still, there's no doubt they were much better than they have been the past 2 years and also that Geeser got them to a level of conditioning and motivation that put them in the top 6 teams in the country. That brings me to their current coach, and whilst he has been on a hiding to almost nothing as regards Kildare's mental approach and motivation there are plenty of signs that he isn't perhaps as good as was thought from his time with Wexford. Even though they achieved more than they had in generations, I would ask the question whether he actually got the best out of that Wexford team which for me were more talented than the Kildare team under Geeser. Kildare need to clean the recent era out of their system, and meanwhile keep alot of emphasis on the underrage structures. By rights they should be very competitive at Snr level but then so should Meath. The latter's prolonged fall has been much more surprising than Kildare's, given that Meath had many structures in a good place up until about 10-15 years ago. One would wonder was the prolonged tenure of SB ultimately a detrimental effect? Or is it simply more to do with overall structural/administrative decline? It's not something I'd predict with any sort of confidence but I think Meath will sort themselves out within another year or two, if the will is there. I expect them to be improved on the pitch this summer, they can hardly be as bad as last year. For Kildare it's more difficult, they put in a very concerted effort over the last 20 years and the problem is I think they pushed that effort in the wrong direction in some ways. They are now trying to overcome both the fallout of fundamental mistakes along with possibly fatigue from the efforts expended by all concerned during that period. If the lessons have been deeply learned they can start again and build in a sustainable way. That will take a minimum of 5 years to bear serious fruit at senior level I would think. Quite possibly longer. Meanwhile, who will shoot JR?
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Post by givehimaball on Jun 5, 2015 15:34:26 GMT
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 5, 2015 19:18:12 GMT
I think Kildare went wrong from an organisational point of view and on top of that the whole Geeser thing knocked them back mentally even further. I went on record as saying that I didn't think KMcG had made them much better. And I stand by that, even though I think Geeser has many great qualities, and despite the fact that Kildare have disimproved since he left. I said at the time that I felt Kildare had wed themselves too much to a slavish belief in KMcG and his influence, especially by the time he left. That made the job of whoever came after impossible. It was clear to me that either Kildare weren't good enough to win Sam or Geeser didn't cut the mustard as a head coach since as far back as 2008. Or a bit of both. Tactically there were many signs of issues over his tenure. But clearly also they lacked a couple of killer forwards, especially with JD ending up in such a withdrawn role. Yet they came close to reaching an All-I final, though I will always argue they weren't unlucky to lose against Down. Still, there's no doubt they were much better than they have been the past 2 years and also that Geeser got them to a level of conditioning and motivation that put them in the top 6 teams in the country. That brings me to their current coach, and whilst he has been on a hiding to almost nothing as regards Kildare's mental approach and motivation there are plenty of signs that he isn't perhaps as good as was thought from his time with Wexford. Even though they achieved more than they had in generations, I would ask the question whether he actually got the best out of that Wexford team which for me were more talented than the Kildare team under Geeser. Kildare need to clean the recent era out of their system, and meanwhile keep alot of emphasis on the underrage structures. By rights they should be very competitive at Snr level but then so should Meath. The latter's prolonged fall has been much more surprising than Kildare's, given that Meath had many structures in a good place up until about 10-15 years ago. One would wonder was the prolonged tenure of SB ultimately a detrimental effect? Or is it simply more to do with overall structural/administrative decline? It's not something I'd predict with any sort of confidence but I think Meath will sort themselves out within another year or two, if the will is there. I expect them to be improved on the pitch this summer, they can hardly be as bad as last year. For Kildare it's more difficult, they put in a very concerted effort over the last 20 years and the problem is I think they pushed that effort in the wrong direction in some ways. They are now trying to overcome both the fallout of fundamental mistakes along with possibly fatigue from the efforts expended by all concerned during that period. If the lessons have been deeply learned they can start again and build in a sustainable way. That will take a minimum of 5 years to bear serious fruit at senior level I would think. Quite possibly longer. Meanwhile, who will shoot JR? Fine post rashers, although I don't agree Kildare were ever a top 6 under Geeser, maybe a top eight but that is even pushing out the boat in the true sense of having real quality in the team. I would argue, at their peak under McGeeney, 2010 & 2011 in particular that Kildare possibly had their second best ever era in the game after the O'Dywer era, leaving aside when they contested and won finals in the 1920's. Kildare might have been a top four team in the late '90s and early '00s, but even that is questionable, although they certainly operated within that "top four parish" as genuine contenders in the era pre back door. I don't believe the DNA makeup is in the Kildare psychic to win an All-ireland, especially in the truest sense of playing traditional attacking football, pre blanket defence and swarm break away offence. Maybe someone sometime will assemble a collection of players that will adapt to the modern game as we see it currently played. In my memory Kildare have never remotely come near to producing a Linden, Whitnal, McCartan. O'Rourke, Stafford, Flynn. Mooney, Connor, Lowry, McFadden, Murphy, Brearty and in the higher echelons, O'Neil, Cavanagh and Canavan as a blue chip inside fullforward line. Therein lies the crux to the issue, as to how a county views the attacking game in it's truest art form of generating blue-chip fullforward line play at the highest level, how you feed that line and defend sufficiently at the other end. Meath teams under SB cracked this completely. That is the gigantic step football across Kildare will have to change. Their philosophy on how they view and secondly develop blue chip fullforward line play within the county. That might not be possibly. It is 87 years since Kildare won the All-Ireland. Something is amiss.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jun 5, 2015 23:22:06 GMT
KG I'd genuinely love, and I do mean that, to see Kildare really compete at the top levels again, albeit if they start to really win things I'd be even more jealous than when Meath were on top. But it's sad to see their decline again. It must be soul-destroying for people in their set-up who give everything and who have genuine expectation of progress to see the way they have gone back, especially after 20 years of competing so well.
I agree with all you said except the last part. People said the same sort of things about Donegal pre-1992, and they were saying similar things about them until 2011/12. Ok I accept people have often said Donegal have some class forwards, but..............
So yes, Kildare do seem to have fallen very short in terms of developing really top class forwards, inside forwards. But take the Cork team that won Sam in 2010, the Dublin team in 1995 (more consistent than either Kildare 1990s or Cork 2000s, despite the lack of top full-forwards). I'm sure there's other examples.
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Post by southward on Jun 6, 2015 13:36:03 GMT
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 6, 2015 22:16:04 GMT
The bookies have Laois as favourites. Either team will be swirled around like confetti at a wedding on a breezy day against the Dubs at home. It might be prudent to throw this game and travel the qualifiers road. A home tie in either Portlaoise or Newbridge might have some validity as tie. Hard game to call between these two perennial underachievers in the Leinster championship. A 50/50 game in my opinion. I'll say no more
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jun 7, 2015 8:35:43 GMT
Good result for Kildare, especially with the late rally. Replay will tell a lot. Either Kildare come on a bit more and win a close game, which will be great progress for them, or they caught Laois out yesterday and won't get close the next day.
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Post by donegalman on Jun 7, 2015 12:30:01 GMT
Derry have a poor record at home, so I am going for Down today, by the narrowest of margins if it isnt a draw.
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Post by donegalman on Jun 7, 2015 16:12:29 GMT
Well I was wrong about the result, but right that it was close. Ref was accused of being too whistle happy, but in fairness, if you let a game flow you are in danger of it turning into a very bad tempered affair. McConville made a very interesting point at half time that Kinsella was not fit and therefore blowing more often to stop the play so he could get his breath. In hindsight probably true. I think that Derry will not be a threat to either Armagh or Donegal, without Eoin Bradley they are very limited.
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Post by givehimaball on Jun 8, 2015 12:17:02 GMT
I thought both games at the weekend were very average fare The Kildare Laois game at least had the excuse of a strong wind and I felt a draw was a fair result in a sense as neither side deserved to win it. The Down Derry was of a similar standard and the most noteworthy thing was how Derry almost made a hash of it in the 2nd half but in the end Down made a hash of getting the draw. Very hard to see any of the four teams making any sort of serious impact on the championship.
The winner of the Kildare Laois replay gets to play Dublin while the loser gets a home game against Antrim.
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Post by playitfair on Jun 8, 2015 12:58:17 GMT
Well I was wrong about the result, but right that it was close. Ref was accused of being too whistle happy, but in fairness, if you let a game flow you are in danger of it turning into a very bad tempered affair. McConville made a very interesting point at half time that Kinsella was not fit and therefore blowing more often to stop the play so he could get his breath. In hindsight probably true. I think that Derry will not be a threat to either Armagh or Donegal, without Eoin Bradley they are very limited. I think that is a very unfair comment on Eddie Kinsella who I believe remains the top referee in the country.
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Post by donegalman on Jun 8, 2015 15:21:28 GMT
I think Kinsella is about the best too. But he looked like he was struggling yesterday with the play. I think that the umpires did him a great disservice as well by sighting the down player for the alleged punch he threw, and the red card that resulted. There should be strict penalties on those who play act to get their opponents sent off.
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Post by southward on Jun 8, 2015 18:31:23 GMT
I think Kinsella is about the best too. But he looked like he was struggling yesterday with the play. I think that the umpires did him a great disservice as well by sighting the down player for the alleged punch he threw, and the red card that resulted. There should be strict penalties on those who play act to get their opponents sent off. Not sure the Derry lad was playacting. Looked Like he got a hand/fingers in the face, which can hurt. At the same time I don't think it was intentional; the Down player probably trying to hold him off or push him away. I can only assume it looked worse to the umpire on first sight. For sure the red card was harsh.
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Post by Ard Mhacha on Jun 12, 2015 16:57:06 GMT
Donegalman, what's your prediction for Sunday?
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Post by royalkerryfan on Jun 12, 2015 19:59:38 GMT
Predictions for this weekend lads,
Kildare v Laois, - Kildare Mayo v Galway - Mayo Kerry v Tipp - Kerry Cork v Clare - Cork Westmeath v Wexford - westmeath Armagh v Donegal ? ? Thinking Armagh for the shock of the weekend
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Post by royalkerryfan on Jun 12, 2015 20:00:20 GMT
Left out Meath v Wicklow! - Meath
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Post by kerrygold on Jun 12, 2015 20:49:29 GMT
Predictions for this weekend lads, Kildare v Laois, - Kildare Mayo v Galway - Mayo Kerry v Tipp - Kerry Cork v Clare - Cork Westmeath v Wexford - westmeath Armagh v Donegal ? ? Thinking Armagh for the shock of the weekendSomething like 1-12 - 1-13. Has the makings of a northern, defensive, bruiser.
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 12, 2015 21:02:08 GMT
sneak video of Armagh and Donegal putting their defensive set up in place
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Post by Mickmack on Jun 12, 2015 21:03:10 GMT
Only for Podge Collins doing his cruciate I would be looking for Clare to beat Cork. I still wouldn't rule it out
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Post by wideball on Jun 12, 2015 21:20:03 GMT
Predictions for this weekend lads, Kildare v Laois, - Kildare Mayo v Galway - Mayo Kerry v Tipp - Kerry Cork v Clare - Cork Westmeath v Wexford - westmeath Armagh v Donegal ? ? Thinking Armagh for the shock of the weekend Laois Mayo Kerry Cork Westmeath Armagh
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Post by royalkerryfan on Jun 12, 2015 21:20:09 GMT
Maybe in Ennis Mickmack but I doubt it in Cork.
There will be a shock this weekend just can't decide where.
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Post by givehimaball on Jun 12, 2015 21:21:36 GMT
Only for Podge Collins doing his cruciate I would be looking for Clare to beat Cork. I still wouldn't rule it out Not just Podge Collins out - they have a lot of injuries and to what would have been key players for them - very hard to see them giving Cork serious bother as their squad depth just isn't there. If they had a fully fit squad I'd have expected them to have a decent enough cut against Cork but with the injuries they have it's a massive ask to see them causing Cork worries. www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/clare-hit-by-injury-crisis-as-six-players-ruled-out-for-cork-clash-335654.html
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