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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Jul 28, 2015 12:52:17 GMT
Without being too much of an ass, this shouldn't come as a surprise to Cork as: 1) They know at the start of every year that they will prob be in the Munster final, and 2) They lose them more than they win with the games regularly going to replays. They should be prepared for this scenario- I agree that we could do with a format change but with the format as is- Cork would have known that there was a very strong possibility that they would end up in this scenario. That is true and not every team would have lost in the scenario. Simply put- they need to come up with a less attritional game plan or else they wont ever be able to play several important games in quick succession
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Post by donegalman on Jul 28, 2015 14:03:47 GMT
Can I make the point that Cork were disadvantaged this year more than ever by the fact that they lost a replay, had a week turnaround for their game, and tried harder than they ever have tried in recent years to win in killarney. I think that their campaign was make or break re Munster. They would probably have beaten sligo in the back door if they had met them, or possibly westmeath. They would have either struggled badly to beat fermanagh and the rest of the field would have beaten them no mater what. Should they have kept a bit up their sleve? they did in 2013. They got beaten in killarney but looked like they held off a bit, or at least wernt trying as much as they were this year. They beat sligo, and then got easily beaten by the dubs. It looks like they are darned if they do or darned if they dont, as their batch of players is very similar to their team back then. League seeding would definitely help a team to reorganize later in the year, but I am at a loss to explain how one of the best teams on paper year in year out get beaten well before the season is over. A week is an enormous length of time in the lifespan of a championship season in the same way an extra furlong is to a horse in a race.
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Post by piggott on Jul 28, 2015 14:23:12 GMT
Could the four defeated provincial finalists not play each other in the two matches in round 4B and the two winners go on to quarter finals, maybe seeded on National League placings to avoid mismatches in QFs
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Post by wayupnorth on Jul 28, 2015 17:01:44 GMT
Can I make the point that Cork were disadvantaged this year more than ever by the fact that they lost a replay, had a week turnaround for their game, and tried harder than they ever have tried in recent years to win in killarney. I think that their campaign was make or break re Munster. They would probably have beaten sligo in the back door if they had met them, or possibly westmeath. They would have either struggled badly to beat fermanagh and the rest of the field would have beaten them no mater what. Should they have kept a bit up their sleve? they did in 2013. They got beaten in killarney but looked like they held off a bit, or at least wernt trying as much as they were this year. They beat sligo, and then got easily beaten by the dubs. It looks like they are darned if they do or darned if they dont, as their batch of players is very similar to their team back then. League seeding would definitely help a team to reorganize later in the year, but I am at a loss to explain how one of the best teams on paper year in year out get beaten well before the season is over. A week is an enormous length of time in the lifespan of a championship season in the same way an extra furlong is to a horse in a race. They couldn't have met Sligo or Westmeath because those teams are also losing provincial finalists. Yes it was an uphill struggle to turn things around in seven days but a team that hopes to lift Sam must be capable of doing such things. This is probably the benefit of the qualifiers - it allows good teams to lift themselves up after a setback. Donegal did it in 2011 (at least getting to the Qr finals)- it wasn't following a tough replay but that year as in every other Donegal played more games in their province than Cork did in Munster.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jul 28, 2015 17:23:00 GMT
Don't agree with two things JMG said there, (the issue of a week turnaround after losing the provincial final replay notwithstanding):
Cork actually did have a record of collapse this year, they failed to turn up in the league final.
And I disagree they didn't win the first day mainly because of Fionn Fitz's point, they blew it by losing possession twice in good positions when they could have sewn the game up, barring a goal.
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Post by Sons of Pitches on Jul 28, 2015 18:14:12 GMT
Don't agree with two things JMG said there, (the issue of a week turnaround after losing the provincial final replay notwithstanding): Cork actually did have a record of collapse this year, they failed to turn up in the league final. And I disagree they didn't win the first day mainly because of Fionn Fitz's point, they blew it by losing possession twice in good positions when they could have sewn the game up, barring a goal. Exactly. Brolly keeps bringing up the penalty but they had a 45 to kill the game and they couldn't manage that.
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Post by donegalman on Jul 28, 2015 18:17:10 GMT
Wayupnorth, In 2011 we were provincial champions. I would love to be the same again this year, but that is the way the old cookie crumbles.
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Post by Mickmack on Jul 28, 2015 19:23:21 GMT
Cuthbert looked very fatalistic after losing the replay. I think he dreaded another filleting by a fresh Dublin in the QF.
Being honest here now, I wouldn't have fancied meeting a fresh Dublin in the QF if Kerry had lost to Cork and beat Kildare in the qualifier.
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Post by wayupnorth on Jul 28, 2015 23:05:48 GMT
Wayupnorth, In 2011 we were provincial champions. I would love to be the same again this year, but that is the way the old cookie crumbles. Apologies. I meant 2013.
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Post by donegalman on Jul 29, 2015 11:00:16 GMT
Cuthbert is gone.
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Post by playitfair on Jul 29, 2015 12:42:39 GMT
Very good article certainly one of the better writers and from the best GAA paper IMO. In relation to Brian Cuthbert departing the scene, I must say that I have a huge degree of empathy for him. I believe that he has always conducted himself admirably and with dignity. His team had evolved hugely over the past two years considering the raft of departures in 2013 & injuries this year. It just wasn't meant to be for him however I think the Cork football team is in a much better place than their hurlers.
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Post by kerrybhoy06 on Jul 29, 2015 13:03:24 GMT
Really good article! When writing a comment piece- the key is to take knowledge/opinions that already exists, put your own slant on them and articulate them in a manner that most people cant- Quirke does that perfectly here
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Jul 29, 2015 15:11:52 GMT
Very good article certainly one of the better writers and from the best GAA paper IMO. In relation to Brian Cuthbert departing the scene, I must say that I have a huge degree of empathy for him. I believe that he has always conducted himself admirably and with dignity. His team had evolved hugely over the past two years considering the raft of departures in 2013 & injuries this year. It just wasn't meant to be for him however I think the Cork football team is in a much better place than their hurlers. Fair point. Considering they have had two relatively excellent national leagues (much better than 95% of other teams), and that whilst in deep transition. It was the few really bad defeats that did for him. And had they killed the drawn game before the equaliser I'm sure he wouldn't be stepping down so quickly even if they had a very bad quarter final
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Post by givehimaball on Aug 4, 2015 9:37:33 GMT
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Post by Seoirse Ui Duic on Aug 4, 2015 10:10:23 GMT
I still have a lot of friends up north from my time working there and some of them from Fermanagh. In the past they would have cared little for gaelic games, and this was true for people from both communities. After all it's hard to stay interested when success is not forthcoming. Not too long ago Fermanagh were being beaten by everyone, including London. This year coming within a point of reaching the McKenna Cup final and having a great run through the qualifiers there is more and more support for the footballers. Many people who would have never been to a match have come out this year to support the team. There is a real buzz about them and friends from Fermanagh tell me it is noticeable all around the county that the mood has changed. Even those from the other community are showing an interest and a friend of mine has finally been to her first ever GAA match, something she really enjoyed. As Quigley already pointed out putting Fermanagh in a different competition would do little for the players and even less for the supporters. It is unlikely Fermanagh will be in another quarter final next year, but not impossible and it is doing so much for the county and the people.
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Post by glengael on Aug 4, 2015 16:31:34 GMT
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Post by wayupnorth on Aug 4, 2015 18:31:40 GMT
A more cynical person than me might quip that JMcG has done more to make us fear for the game than any amount of one-sided quarter finals in Croke Park. But to be fair to the man he deserves great credit for taking an underperforming county team and turning them into All Ireland champions. This in itself is a blatant contradiction of his premise in that all counties with the right motivation and leadership can do likewise. The solution is not football aparteid. Fermanagh supporters alone would tell him that they must continue to be allowed to aspire to better things next year. He makes the same mistake as the hordes calling for major Championship surgery on the basis of a single season. One swallow never makes a summer and the Quarters are unlikely to be the same next week never mind next year. Thankfully in Kerry we are more inclined to think in terms of decades.
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Post by southward on Aug 4, 2015 20:58:54 GMT
The angst continues unabated in punditland over the supposed insurmountable gulf between the top 4 and the rest. Last weekend's games are now being referenced in the ever-increasing clamour for a 2nd tier championship. These were AI Q/Fs.
Who then do these pundits envisage playing in the "A" championship - Kerry Dublin, Mayo, Donegal and no-one else? This is the logic of the current narrative. Which seems more about exclusion than anything else - you guys are too good, you can't play with us anymore.
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Post by southward on Aug 4, 2015 21:33:35 GMT
The other angle to all the recent noise, and McGuinness alludes to it again today, is of course coaches. An army of coaches in every schoolyard, every backyard, every farmer's field. A coach over the shoulder of every kid who dreams of being the next Gooch or Colm O'Neill or Diarmuid Connolly. A coach to make sure that kid never loses possession or ever attempts to kick a football until 10 yards from the posts. A coach to suck the joy out of every kickaround at every level. All for the good of the weaker counties, don't you know.
Or, as a cynic might say, jobs and careers for the boys.
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Post by Chinatown on Aug 5, 2015 20:26:19 GMT
Dara sé's article was brilliant today. But this is well worth a read as well , about the importance of Anthony Maher & Donnacha Walsh to Kerry. ebx.sh/1E6LQz1Agreed, Quirke good Twitter feed also
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 5, 2015 21:27:31 GMT
Mike Quirke: A shout out for the lads in the trenches
Wednesday, August 05, 2015
By Mike Quirke
When I watch rugby games on television, I loathe when the commentator talks about the huge amount of ‘unseen work’ being done by certain players.
Of course, what the man with the microphone is really telling us is; the work being done is in plain view, but we’re just too uneducated on the game to understand what he’s doing out there and too ignorant about the intricacies of the battle to truly appreciate the different roles on the team.
Maybe he’s right – it’s was always easy for a rugby novice like myself to appreciate the sniper-like accuracy of O’Gara’s kicking, or the majesty of Paul O’Connell’s fielding, but far more difficult to properly acknowledge the importance of the muck-savagery involved in John Hayes’ war in the trenches.
I’m not trying to send any similar such subliminal messages here, but with the advent of a more structured game of Gaelic football we’ve definitely seen an upsurge in the use of the term ‘under-rated footballer’ by commentators to describe some of our more heralded ‘unseen’ workers.
It’s not rocket science, but some roles have become more difficult to clearly quantify because of the way the game is now played. For every Diarmuid Connolly, there is a Denis Bastick. For every Aidan O’Shea, there’s a Kevin McLoughlin. For every Gooch there is a Donnchadh Walsh… For every artist who gets praised for his work, there is a guy who mixes the paint and creates the beautiful colours to put on the canvas.
There are many other of course… players who you will not see much of on the highlight package on a Sunday night, but are vital cogs in the smooth operating of their machine. Last Sunday in Croke Park, Kerry ruthlessly dismantled a Kildare side who rolled over far too tamely and allowed themselves to be dominated all over the field.
Kerry had lost their captain and the focal point of their attack three days prior to the game when Kieran Donaghy aggravated a groin injury and was pulled as a precaution. Then they had further disruption when James O’Donoghue went down late in the first- half with a recurrence of a shoulder injury that has placed a large doubt over his participation in the semi-final.
It should have been a perfect chance for Kildare to make it a very uncomfortable afternoon, but instead, they were lifeless - unable to raise a gallop. Despite the adversity of losing two key attackers, Kerry made no excuses, and the next man up did his job. Once they found their rhythm, Kerry didn’t skip a beat and punished the Lilies all the way to the 72nd minute by emptying the bench with men each with their own point to prove.
Despite the lack of a challenge from Kildare, and after a sluggish opening, Kerry began to look pacy and penetrative in attack and rock solid defensively. A good combination for any aspiring All Ireland champion.
Colm Cooper and David Moran led the way, and grabbed all the Monday morning headlines. They were the Ronan O’Gara and Paul O’Connell – easy to appreciate their brilliance on a day that was all one way traffic. But, for several years now, and like this year’s Munster final replay; quiet leaders like Anthony Maher and Donnchadh Walsh remain the under-appreciated heartbeat of Kerry football. They are the ‘unseen’. The guys who live in the trenches like the ‘Bull’ Hayes, rucking and mauling and doing all the little things to nudge their team closer to victory.
For the second game in a row, Maher put on an exhibition of midfield play and that was right up there with what Moran produced. We know he’s an excellent kick passer off both feet, he’s a good ball winner, has good wheels, a huge work rate and likes to kick a score. But they are all the obvious things. He never gets credit for the amount of times he uses his body so intelligently to legally hold off midfield traffic and allow Moran to swoop in uninhibited to fetch ball.
Watch for it next time, he sacrifices himself to allow somebody else get the credit. Or the amount of instances he rises for a kick-out and instead of making the highlight reel catch, he taps the ball constructively to team-mate to release them on the attack quicker, effectively taking stats from his own column and giving them to somebody else. He’s a cog. An unselfish, unaffected sidekick who is happy to be Robin and allow others to be Batman.
Donnchadh Walsh is another member of that invisible workforce whose importance to Kerry is far more appreciated inside the walls of the dressing room than outside. He, like Maher, is a glue guy. He links play and is a big part of their transition from defence to attack. He offers you the sneaky scoring, the breaking ball, the tackling and the incessant running that would break your heart if you were marking him.
Think back to Paul Geaney’s goal that clinched the Munster final replay in Killarney… Donnacha sprinted from 40 yards behind where the free was awarded to 40 yards ahead of it on the off chance he might get the ball. That was his fifth time making a similar hard run at goal in that game, but it was the only time he got the ball. That unselfish running forces help defenders to become attracted to him in the attacking third, thus creating a sliver more time and space for the blue chip finishers to exploit.
Again, you won’t find that on any stat sheet, but his team-mates recognise it and his manager values it. He and Maher constantly leave their own man to chase down somebody else’s — no ego, just honesty.
I know every good team has members of the ‘unseen’, quietly plying their trade in the shadows of greatness. Mayo and Donegal have their guys too, and they will need to extract every last ounce out of them at the weekend if they are to advance. On Saturday, we’ll see the two best full forwards in the game right now going head to head, but I have a feeling this game might just be decided by the supporting casts.
From Mayo’s perspective, I love the positioning of Aidan O’Shea at 14. He looks like a senior footballer who doctored his birth cert and snuck into the minor championship such is the ease with which he throws grown men out of his way with ball in hand. His power and directness will make Cillian O’Connor and Mayo an even greater threat inside.
The question is, will Seamie O’Shea, Tom Parsons and Barry Moran at some stage get enough ball inside to allow their new strike force to flourish. I believe they will. Donegal finished strongly last weekend and looked to find a better groove with Michael Murphy on the edge of the square.
For me, it’s the only place to play him, such is his quality close to goal. But, unlike Mayo with Aidan O’Shea, I’m not sure if Donegal can afford the luxury of leaving him in there for the whole game. Mayo’s ‘unseen’ men around the middle are the key here and wont fear the ominous challenge that Donegal present, having dealt with them so handily back in 2013.
McLoughlin, Doherty and O’Shea and the rest are capable of dominating the trenches for Mayo. If they can get a stranglehold around the middle and force Michael Murphy away from goal, it will present them with their best opportunity of getting the win and advancing to the last four.
Watch out for the little things next weekend… big games are more often than not won by the foot soldiers - even if it’s the generals who determine by how much.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Aug 5, 2015 21:34:01 GMT
The other angle to all the recent noise, and McGuinness alludes to it again today, is of course coaches. An army of coaches in every schoolyard, every backyard, every farmer's field. A coach over the shoulder of every kid who dreams of being the next Gooch or Colm O'Neill or Diarmuid Connolly. A coach to make sure that kid never loses possession or ever attempts to kick a football until 10 yards from the posts. A coach to suck the joy out of every kickaround at every level. All for the good of the weaker counties, don't you know. Or, as a cynic might say, jobs and careers for the boys. Good post
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Post by Mickmack on Aug 5, 2015 21:35:18 GMT
Quirke's articles puts Darragh's in the hapenny place for me at any rate.
My only crib is that for me, Maher is the Paul OConnell of the Kerry team .
Oh and I think there is a message there for you too brigid!
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fitz
Fanatical Member
Red sky at night get off my land
Posts: 1,719
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Post by fitz on Aug 5, 2015 21:40:53 GMT
Dara sé's article was brilliant today. But this is well worth a read as well , about the importance of Anthony Maher & Donnacha Walsh to Kerry. ebx.sh/1E6LQz1Agreed, Quirke good Twitter feed also Quirke's piece is very good. I dunno, the whole "cute hoor" thing with Darragh's piece, even though it's used very deliberately in today's article, ah I just don't think it holds up well with Quirke's copy.
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Post by veteran on Aug 5, 2015 22:02:39 GMT
It was a breath of fresh air to read Paraic Duffy's comments about the hysterical reaction to some lob sided scorelines this year.
I have written here before that it seems the only organisation where all participants are expected to have an equal chance of winning the championship. In every code, rugby and soccer for example, there are several teams who have no chance of ultimate success. The rugby world cup is upon us. Watch New Zealand , South Africa, Australia, indeed Ireland , post anything up to 100 points on hapless opposition. Will there be a hysterical reaction calling for a fundamental revamp of the competition? Tell me if you hear any whisper of it. Not ideal of course but that is the way of the big bad world. The haves and havenots will be forever with us.
Should something be done to improve the lot of the helpless? No doubt. No mystery in a possible solution. Start with the youth. Get into the schools and work your way up(the rugby boys may just have beaten you to it!) Need a blueprint? Look to Tyrone and and Tipperary for instance. Tyrone have only become a force relatively recently. Tipperary have become a force even more recently ,and that in hurling mad county. I have no doubt these decent counties would share that blueprint.
In his comments, Paraic Duffy, revealed that Kildare has a population of 200,000 approx. That size of a population in a football county and they humiliate themselves twice in Croke Park this year. Something radically wrong there I fear which a two tier championship or an open draw etc will not rectify. Now in fairness to Kildare they are in the minor football semifinal this year so perhaps something is moving up there,
I suggest every county should look at their underage structures, implement say a five year plan with the goal of having a realistic chance of winning the minor All-Ireland at the end of that period. That would appear to me to be an attainable ambition.
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Aug 6, 2015 7:51:20 GMT
Perhaps a mistake that many counties make is that they coach underage teams rather than underage players.
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Post by donegalman on Aug 6, 2015 11:00:49 GMT
Kildare were involved in the u21 final 7 years ago, so they do have some form at under age level. What I cant understand is their lack of performance since MCGeeney left them. They were a tad unlucky when he was there, but the current guy Ryan, whom I dont rate at all, is taking them backwards in time. His one season of relative success with wexford is a long time ago now. I think that Kildare football needs someone like Anthony Rainbow in charge, or even Early. A former player who has a knowledge of the game and respect of the players within the county.
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mandad
Senior Member
Posts: 448
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Post by mandad on Aug 6, 2015 12:42:45 GMT
Ah but this process is difficult, time consuming and far slower at achieving the immediate results we all look for. As stated already, and in my humble opinion, the first milestone has to be player’s development and not the win/loss ratio. Or maybe we should just change the rules so that all players with terrible football skills are protected from their own inadequacies. In fact, let’s do away with keeping scores and give everyone a Certificate of Participation.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Aug 6, 2015 13:14:31 GMT
Ryan is certainly to blame in part. Did he underachieve with that Wexford team, despite the run to the All-I semi?
But the Kildare players, in the way they sold themselves into outright worship of Geeser and his systems, and the way they handled the fallout of his departure, are surely the most responsible here? Along with the county board and the way they handled everything, from use of funding to appointing coaches and more. The whole thing seems to have been seriously messed up.
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Post by rockie36 on Aug 6, 2015 15:30:50 GMT
Nobody was too worried after Kildare beat Cork a few weeks ago....it was all about the Kildare momentum and the fact that they always produce good footballers. Kerry come to town with a team mostly made up of guys who did not have a very good underage CV and give them a whopping and then we are back to two tier football again. When these guys were being hammered by Cork at Minor and U21 the Kerry County Board reacted with putting in place a good longterm underage structure and that started to show fruition last year and the future is bright. Every county has to take responsibility for their own structures....by all means Croke Park should assist the weaker counties. The English Premiership is kicking off next week...totally professional game and there are probably only 4 or 5 teams that can realistically win it...but they keep doing what they are doing....
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