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Post by Mickmack on May 4, 2015 20:45:14 GMT
Why should success be punished? Has to be a level playing field in terms of competition rules. I do believe in home games for 'designated counties', or whatever they might be called these days, playing against, say, League 1 teams, for argument's sake. In championship that is. I agree there's nothing much wrong with qtr finals on, except of course that provincial winners don't get a 2nd chance. League and earlier championship could be combined but I think there have to be sub-competitions on some sort of basis in order for weakest teams to have something to aim for, just as middle-ranking teams have a very outside chance of winning an All-I, or at least getting to a final maybe (Galway 1998, for example? Offaly 1997 was a near example). There has to be some way of evening up the field. Horse racing does sit by adding weight. The lads at work who go to Croker to support Dublin for the Leinster Championship aren't going to bother this year. Years ago you could only bring on 3 subs. Now its 6 (with the black card)and that just widens the gap between the haves and the have-nots.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on May 4, 2015 22:20:45 GMT
Ha that's funny. So because we are strong right now there's a big problem, but there was never a big problem with Kerry being even more strong and winning All-Is every couple of years, and with Kk in hurling the past 15 years or so? What crowds are there when Kerry beat Waterford or Clare yet again every year?
I bring up the issue of competition structure that has been an elephant in the room for so long, and you jump on the bandwagon of Dublin's recent Leinster dominance and all that. Thought you were bigger than that. Sure twas grand while we were bringing 80,000 to Leinster games and not winning anything else, a short time ago. But now there's a big problem........ I suppose our 2 All-Is in 20 years backs up that popular theory.
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Post by Mickmack on May 4, 2015 22:39:53 GMT
The hurling has been lobsided for about 100 years....
Not giving a back door route to the last three winners would effect Kerry too. And Kilkenny. Being able to bring on 6 subs helps Kerry too.
No matter what competition structure you have, you will have the same few teams in the final four.
Have you any proposals to make things more even and interesting? I would favour a handicap system for winners from the three previous years as outlined above and also perhaps only allowing them 4 subs. For the greater good. It would hurt Kerry though.
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Post by Mickmack on May 4, 2015 22:45:59 GMT
and it is strange that Dublin seemed to have had more supporters going to games in the era before they were winning all Irelands, now that you mention it. I was at the Leinster final of 2005 or 2006 v Laois and it was a full house.
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Post by kerrygold on May 4, 2015 22:51:55 GMT
I think the Irish people have dealt with enough punitive measures over the past 7 years without introducing more to Gaelic games.
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fitz
Fanatical Member
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Post by fitz on May 5, 2015 9:38:31 GMT
and it is strange that Dublin seemed to have had more supporters going to games in the era before they were winning all Irelands, now that you mention it. I was at the Leinster final of 2005 or 2006 v Laois and it was a full house. They were the "Hunger Games". Now that has been sated, well a combination of nobody to play against meaningfully and being accustomed to top table dining means the Leinster title is less palatable and infinitely predictable. I think drop in attendance is understandable.
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Post by donegalman on May 5, 2015 9:59:04 GMT
I think that there are 2 sides to looking at attendances.
What is the total attendance of championship football matches around the country every year, as opposed to individual gates? then compare this to a championship that didnt include the back door. You will see a big difference in attendances.
But I agree that there is a big slip in gates that is worrying for the GAA and for the game too. It means that the big teams are looking at august and september before they get excited, and this is trickling down to the supporters.
What can be done about this? Not sure there is an easy answer. I think that if you put seeding in place relative to league performances, then you are going to benefit the strong counties once again.
Negative seeding could be a plan. Provincial finalists automatically meet the following year in the provisional round of the championship, the losers being at home. That would mean that at the very least, every other year we would see a perceived weaker county making the provincial finals. Would this be good for the game? Long term, it could really make a difference but would have to be given about 6 years to see if it is making a difference.
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Post by kerrygold on May 5, 2015 12:26:31 GMT
and it is strange that Dublin seemed to have had more supporters going to games in the era before they were winning all Irelands, now that you mention it. I was at the Leinster final of 2005 or 2006 v Laois and it was a full house. They were the "Hunger Games". Now that has been sated, well a combination of nobody to play against meaningfully and being accustomed to top table dining means the Leinster title is less palatable and infinitely predictable. I think drop in attendance is understandable. A huge part of those attendances was the "Micko Factor" Laois won their first Leinster titles in 48 years, or so, and went on to contest three in a row in the province under Micko. The "Micko Factor" was at it's height coming off the brilliant trilogy of games in Leinster between Dublin, Meath and Kildare in the '90s and early '00s. The man had the ability to move/motivate whole counties emotionally. Thrown into the cocktail was the Paidi factor, coming off the back of been spooked in the '98 All-Ireland semi final at the hands of Micko with Kildare, and rising from the ashes, post Kerry, to move/motivate Westmeath to win their first ever Leinster championship at the expense of Micko and Laois. The concoction was potent, Micko, Paidi, the Dubs and three Leinster counties wining their first Leinster championships in donkeys years and the fanatical fans from the three counties starved of success. While the Westmeath v Laois Lenister final didn't draw the same huge crowd it was more in-house between these two great Kerry men, adding the Dubs was like pouring petrol on the fire of people's emotion, desires, dreams and ambitions. There was regularly full houses in Croker during that time. Offaly, a great breed of Leinster gaa people with real "knowhow", added to the Leinster championship by plucking a Div 1 League title and a Leinster championship from each side of the ashes that resulted from Kildare and Meath tearing each other to pieces in the brilliant trilogy of games in the Leinster championship of 1997. A trilogy of games that might have had an impact as to where Sam rested in 1997. A fresh Meath or kildare would have been infinitely stronger than Offaly at the business end of the championship in that particular year. Sadly the Leinster championship is now a damp squip, going nowhere in particular.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on May 5, 2015 12:38:19 GMT
Attendances have dropped off generally from the peak of the previous decade. There were some factors to do with Tyrone & Armagh, plus a great Kerry side, the new stadium coming into its own, and of course factors to do with people have money etc. Probably also wit the 90s being such a boom time in gaelic football too there was a momentum there, football was still very attractive and in fashion etc.
Yet the All-Is of the last 5 years have been shared out amongst 4 counties, each final has been close or very close, and there have been some great contests in most of the semi-finals. So to compare the last 5 years unfavourably to the previous period in terms of competitiveness doesn't make sense. I think it's a perception based on heresay and a flawed one at that.
The reality of the previous 10 years was that two counties shared 8 of the All-Is, yet at no stage was there any cry of woe or clamour for change or talk of lack of competition. People talk about the 1970s being a period of imbalance and too much dominance by two teams, yet not so the last decade, why is that? There were actually three other winners in the 1970s by the way. Perhaps it's mainly people who enjoyed success in the 2000s who were unhappy with the 1970s and also the current era, and people who had more success in the last decade than they are currently having.................
As I said above the issue for me and many has been one of competition structure. The whole "dominance by a few teams" thing is related, but also different, and probably not really accurate or a bit of a red herring anyway.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on May 5, 2015 12:58:27 GMT
They were the "Hunger Games". Now that has been sated, well a combination of nobody to play against meaningfully and being accustomed to top table dining means the Leinster title is less palatable and infinitely predictable. I think drop in attendance is understandable. A huge part of those attendances was the "Micko Factor" Laois won their first Leinster titles in 48 years, or so, and went on to contest three in a row in the province under Micko. The "Micko Factor" was at it's height coming off the brilliant trilogy of games in Leinster between Dublin, Meath and Kildare in the '90s and early '00s. The man had the ability to move/motivate whole counties emotionally. Thrown into the cocktail was the Paidi factor, coming off the back of been spooked in the '98 All-Ireland semi final at the hands of Micko with Kildare, and rising from the ashes, post Kerry, to move/motivate Westmeath to win their first ever Leinster championship at the expense of Micko and Laois. The concoction was potent, Micko, Paidi, the Dubs and three Leinster counties wining their first Leinster championships in donkeys years and the fanatical fans from the three counties starved of success. While the Westmeath v Laois Lenister final didn't draw the same huge crowd it was more in-house between these two great Kerry men, adding the Dubs was like pouring petrol on the fire of people's emotion, desires, dreams and ambitions. There was regularly full houses in Croker during that time. Offaly, a great breed of Leinster gaa people with real "knowhow", added to the Leinster championship by plucking a Div 1 League title and a Leinster championship from each side of the ashes that resulted from Kildare and Meath tearing each other to pieces in the brilliant trilogy of games in the Leinster championship of 1997. A trilogy of games that might have had an impact as to where Sam rested in 1997. A fresh Meath or kildare would have been infinitely stronger than Offaly at the business end of the championship in that particular year. Sadly the Leinster championship is now a damp squip, going nowhere in particular. I would agree with a lot of that and it's not that long ago so to talk of crisis it needs to be put in perspective/context. The only real shock is that Meath have not recovered and Kildare have not pushed on, in fact they've gone backwards. Those are issues within those two counties, and probably very little to do with national issues, certainly much less of a factor than local factors within those counties related to their own organisation and preparation. If either of those two counties had stepped up the last few years there would be no talk of crisis. Meanwhile Connaught has become a procession again and Munster is at it almost always was, a duopoly, mind you also where one of the 'two' has become significantly weaker. For all the talk of Ulster's strength in depth, the titles from about 1998 to 2011 were annexed yearly between two counties. And since the decline of those two that supposed strength in depth has only really been visible in the middle and sub-top realms of the league. Down's emergence in the 2010 championship increasingly became a freak comet appearance. Donegal's emergence & continued competitiveness at the top refutes lazy beliefs and assumptions about 'marginality' being a defining factor or a faites a complis. By the way, I don't agree re-Meath and Kildare in 1997. If that was true then how on earth did an ageing Meath in 1991 only fail by two points to win the All-I after 10 matches and the greatest saga ever in the history of the game? The fact was that Meath in 97 couldn't follow up from 96 (didn't get close until 99) and Kildare, as the argument goes round and round, were simply not good enough, IMO. Offaly had a brief flowering. You neglected to mention 'the Tommy Lyons factor', a period during which Dublin slumped to very historic defeats against Laois and Westmeath, subsequently put in context by Laois and Westmeath losing multiple times and often quite heavily to Dublin in the succeeding years after Tommy had taken his arse-boxing, hot air and holding his team back from altercations with Armagh to another place and thankfully away from us.
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Post by givehimaball on May 5, 2015 13:28:15 GMT
Saw a stat that in the last 100 championship games Division 4 sides have played that there have only achieved 1 win over a Division 1 side.
Another key stat is the average attendance at a hurling championship game is 25k while at a football championship game it's 15k.
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Post by Mickmack on May 5, 2015 18:29:13 GMT
Attendances have dropped off generally from the peak of the previous decade. There were some factors to do with Tyrone & Armagh, plus a great Kerry side, the new stadium coming into its own, and of course factors to do with people have money etc. Probably also wit the 90s being such a boom time in gaelic football too there was a momentum there, football was still very attractive and in fashion etc. Yet the All-Is of the last 5 years have been shared out amongst 4 counties, each final has been close or very close, and there have been some great contests in most of the semi-finals. So to compare the last 5 years unfavourably to the previous period in terms of competitiveness doesn't make sense. I think it's a perception based on heresay and a flawed one at that. The reality of the previous 10 years was that two counties shared 8 of the All-Is, yet at no stage was there any cry of woe or clamour for change or talk of lack of competition. People talk about the 1970s being a period of imbalance and too much dominance by two teams, yet not so the last decade, why is that? There were actually three other winners in the 1970s by the way. Perhaps it's mainly people who enjoyed success in the 2000s who were unhappy with the 1970s and also the current era, and people who had more success in the last decade than they are currently having................. As I said above the issue for me and many has been one of competition structure. The whole "dominance by a few teams" thing is related, but also different, and probably not really accurate or a bit of a red herring anyway. Do you have any proposals for a revamped structure
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Post by Mickmack on May 5, 2015 18:37:24 GMT
Ha that's funny. So because we are strong right now there's a big problem, but there was never a big problem with Kerry being even more strong and winning All-Is every couple of years, and with Kk in hurling the past 15 years or so? What crowds are there when Kerry beat Waterford or Clare yet again every year? I bring up the issue of competition structure that has been an elephant in the room for so long, and you jump on the bandwagon of Dublin's recent Leinster dominance and all that. Thought you were bigger than that. Sure twas grand while we were bringing 80,000 to Leinster games and not winning anything else, a short time ago. But now there's a big problem........ I suppose our 2 All-Is in 20 years backs up that popular theory. I have been arguing here for the chance to the back door in relation to the last 3 all Ireland winners for yonks... well before 2011 when Dublin won. Its not all about Dublin you know.
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Post by Dermot on May 7, 2015 9:28:13 GMT
Ha that's funny. So because we are strong right now there's a big problem, but there was never a big problem with Kerry being even more strong and winning All-Is every couple of years, and with Kk in hurling the past 15 years or so? What crowds are there when Kerry beat Waterford or Clare yet again every year? I bring up the issue of competition structure that has been an elephant in the room for so long, and you jump on the bandwagon of Dublin's recent Leinster dominance and all that. Thought you were bigger than that. Sure twas grand while we were bringing 80,000 to Leinster games and not winning anything else, a short time ago. But now there's a big problem........ I suppose our 2 All-Is in 20 years backs up that popular theory. I have been arguing here for the chance to the back door in relation to the last 3 all Ireland winners for yonks... well before 2011 when Dublin won. Its not all about Dublin you know. Thats not a bad idea actually (the last 3 (or so) winners cant access the back door) !! ... Even though the back door does have the desired effect of giving every team at least 2 championship games per year, it also ensures that a top team is more likely to win the AI even after a slip up !!
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fitz
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Post by fitz on May 7, 2015 9:43:15 GMT
Dangerous to introduce different sets of rules for different teams. Uproar will surely ensue at first tight contentious game resulting in a team out on first defeat. The Championship is of so much more importance to people than league. So potential early exit e. Tyrone v Donegal in first round and your year is over is heartbreak stuff, wait til next year. Kerry v Cork, Mayo v Galway/Roscommon would be similar fixture for calamity. The back door is all good for all counties Imo.
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Post by Dermot on May 7, 2015 10:46:05 GMT
Dangerous to introduce different sets of rules for different teams. Uproar will surely ensue at first tight contentious game resulting in a team out on first defeat. The Championship is of so much more importance to people than league. So potential early exit e. Tyrone v Donegal in first round and your year is over is heartbreak stuff, wait til next year. Kerry v Cork, Mayo v Galway/Roscommon would be similar fixture for calamity. The back door is all good for all counties Imo. I know what you're saying Fitzwop but as well as the benefits of at least 2 games for every team, the current system sorta ensures that one of the usual suspects will win the AI every year (even if they slip up at some stage).. Not sure I should be saying this as we won 2 of our 3 through the back door lol
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Post by donegalman on May 7, 2015 10:57:55 GMT
unfortunately, the losers of a preliminary round game or a first round game in the champoinship have a hell of a long road ahead of them, lets not forget the club players and fixtures who have to put their lives on hold while the county teams train and travel the country. It is not a satisfactory situation to face. Tyrone are the only team to have won the all ireland, 2005, from the first round of the back door having lost to down. They played 10 matches that year including a replay against dublin, and I dont think there will be too many teams repeating this sort of a run. You need about 27 players without injuries to do it. You need to stay on your feet in the front door as long as you possibly can imo, if not, you have to get a break with who and where you draw your matches.
I am not sure about the back door, it does favor the bigger teams, and reading the stat above about division 4 teams and how unlikely they are to get a result against a division 1 team, it perhaps should be scrapped or at least refined to provincial semi final losers or final runners up.
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Post by Dermot on May 7, 2015 12:10:51 GMT
unfortunately, the losers of a preliminary round game or a first round game in the champoinship have a hell of a long road ahead of them, lets not forget the club players and fixtures who have to put their lives on hold while the county teams train and travel the country. It is not a satisfactory situation to face. Tyrone are the only team to have won the all ireland, 2005, from the first round of the back door having lost to down. They played 10 matches that year including a replay against dublin, and I dont think there will be too many teams repeating this sort of a run. You need about 27 players without injuries to do it. You need to stay on your feet in the front door as long as you possibly can imo, if not, you have to get a break with who and where you draw your matches. I am not sure about the back door, it does favor the bigger teams, and reading the stat above about division 4 teams and how unlikely they are to get a result against a division 1 team, it perhaps should be scrapped or at least refined to provincial semi final losers or final runners up. Aye but then the teams that lose in the first round "every year" wont get another game ... I think MM's idea of "no back door" for the last 3 winning teams is about the best option yet !!
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Post by ansúilleabhánach on May 7, 2015 14:42:01 GMT
unfortunately, the losers of a preliminary round game or a first round game in the champoinship have a hell of a long road ahead of them, lets not forget the club players and fixtures who have to put their lives on hold while the county teams train and travel the country. It is not a satisfactory situation to face. Tyrone are the only team to have won the all ireland, 2005, from the first round of the back door having lost to down. They played 10 matches that year including a replay against dublin, and I dont think there will be too many teams repeating this sort of a run. You need about 27 players without injuries to do it. You need to stay on your feet in the front door as long as you possibly can imo, if not, you have to get a break with who and where you draw your matches. I am not sure about the back door, it does favor the bigger teams, and reading the stat above about division 4 teams and how unlikely they are to get a result against a division 1 team, it perhaps should be scrapped or at least refined to provincial semi final losers or final runners up. Think you mean 2008 for Tír Eoghain donegalman? In 2005 they lost the Ulster final to Ard Mhacha so entered at round 4 v Muineachán. But since 2001, I've come around to being in full agreement with your main point. I was a massive fan of the back door at first, but the outcome of the 2004 hurling championship was an epiphany for me (ditto 2012 and 2013). I think if it was to be scrapped now would be a suitable time, seeing as there has been a four year period with only a single reversal for provincial champions in the quarter finals. And I say this knowing that it favours the likes of us, but all that magic that was in days like the Leinster first round in 2000, when the AI champions were knocked out, has gone. Think of 2003- the same thing happens in Ulster, but Ard Mhacha were back in the final. There is no El Dorado of more games with more intensity, as so achingly desired by many GAA pundits. It is either less games with more significance, or vice versa. Since this is very likely to be an unfeasible proposition, as an alternative, would it be worth considering automatic home advantage in the qualifiers for counties who have progressed further in the provincial championships? The advantages surely should be weighed in favour of the direct route. At quarter final stage, the provincial champions could be offered the choice of a home game or Páirc an Chrócaigh. This has baffled me even more at minor level- there is no incentive, as regards the All Ireland series, to win the provincial championship. This might be associated with the fact that after 14 attempts, all 4 provincial champions won their qfs for the first time last year.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on May 7, 2015 14:43:58 GMT
Ha that's funny. So because we are strong right now there's a big problem, but there was never a big problem with Kerry being even more strong and winning All-Is every couple of years, and with Kk in hurling the past 15 years or so? What crowds are there when Kerry beat Waterford or Clare yet again every year? I bring up the issue of competition structure that has been an elephant in the room for so long, and you jump on the bandwagon of Dublin's recent Leinster dominance and all that. Thought you were bigger than that. Sure twas grand while we were bringing 80,000 to Leinster games and not winning anything else, a short time ago. But now there's a big problem........ I suppose our 2 All-Is in 20 years backs up that popular theory. I have been arguing here for the chance to the back door in relation to the last 3 all Ireland winners for yonks... well before 2011 when Dublin won. Its not all about Dublin you know. Eh, it was you who brought up Dublin and Leinster, I referenced other provinces, and yet you're trying to say I'm only referring to Dublin?? In answer to my posts and points about championship structures you started going on about dwindling crowds for Dublin games in Leinster.............. I don't have new proposal for revamping, I've suggested things before but these ideas have all been suggested by many people and turned down or fudged or avoided. We all know the different proposals. Have you anything new to add? Do you agree or disagree with any of the points I made about championship structures, competitiveness etc, and why?
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on May 7, 2015 14:53:46 GMT
unfortunately, the losers of a preliminary round game or a first round game in the champoinship have a hell of a long road ahead of them, lets not forget the club players and fixtures who have to put their lives on hold while the county teams train and travel the country. It is not a satisfactory situation to face. Tyrone are the only team to have won the all ireland, 2005, from the first round of the back door having lost to down. They played 10 matches that year including a replay against dublin, and I dont think there will be too many teams repeating this sort of a run. You need about 27 players without injuries to do it. You need to stay on your feet in the front door as long as you possibly can imo, if not, you have to get a break with who and where you draw your matches. I am not sure about the back door, it does favor the bigger teams, and reading the stat above about division 4 teams and how unlikely they are to get a result against a division 1 team, it perhaps should be scrapped or at least refined to provincial semi final losers or final runners up. Think you mean 2008 for Tír Eoghain donegalman? In 2005 they lost the Ulster final to Ard Mhacha so entered at round 4 v Muineachán. But since 2001, I've come around to being in full agreement with your main point. I was a massive fan of the back door at first, but the outcome of the 2004 hurling championship was an epiphany for me (ditto 2012 and 2013). I think if it was to be scrapped now would be a suitable time, seeing as there has been a four year period with only a single reversal for provincial champions in the quarter finals. And I say this knowing that it favours the likes of us, but all that magic that was in days like the Leinster first round in 2000, when the AI champions were knocked out, has gone. Think of 2003- the same thing happens in Ulster, but Ard Mhacha are back in the final. There is no El Dorado of more games with more intensity, as so achingly desired by many GAA pundits. It is either less games with more significance, or vice versa. Since this is very likely to be an unfeasible proposition, as an alternative, would it be worth considering automatic home advantage in the qualifiers for counties who have progressed further in the provincial championships? The advantages surely should be weighed in favour of the direct route. At quarter final stage, the provincial champions could be offered the choice of a home game or Pairc an Chrocaigh. This has baffled me even more at minor level- there is no incentive, as regards the All Ireland series, to win the provincial championship. This might be associated with the fact that after 14 attempts, all 4 provincial champions won their qfs for the first time last year. Why should a team that got through more provincial games get an advantage over a team that has come through more qualifier games? The only thing I think should be changed in that regard is provincial winners get another chance if they lose the quarter final. But that's completely unworkable as far as I can see. Given that the province structure is so uneven, it would make more sense to change that, such as 4 groups of 8 based on regions. Make the regional championships round robin with semi-finals and a final. Or maybe two sub-groups of 4 in each region before the semi-finals & final. Then straight to qtr finals. Qualifiers could be scrapped
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Post by ansúilleabhánach on May 7, 2015 14:54:46 GMT
Actually, having thought about this before, we may have won the All Ireland in 2005 and 2010 under the old system. Also we may have got the O Neill monkey off our backs in the 2007 final!
Although with all my objections, justice was delivered by the back door in 2005. The Ulster final was Tír Eoghain's until the two bizarre sendings off of Canavan and O Neill. They were in a class of their (Tyr)own that year. I've never so simultaneously admired, and been sickened by, a team's performance as I was at the final.
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Post by Ard Mhacha on May 7, 2015 15:26:32 GMT
Actually, having thought about this before, we may have won the All Ireland in 2005 and 2010 under the old system. Also we may have got the O Neill monkey off our backs in the 2007 final! Although with all my objections, justice was delivered by the back door in 2005. The Ulster final was Tír Eoghain's until the two bizarre sendings off of Canavan and O Neill. They were in a class of their (Tyr)own that year. I've never so simultaneously admired, and been sickened by, a team's performance as I was at the final. Ah, that back door. Came in at the wrong time for us definitely. Tyrone should have won it the first day. 4 points up, couple minutes left yet you rarely hear praise for our comeback. The replay, don't forget McKeever was harshly sent off too, with Canavan. O'Neill, harsh yes. McMenamin, well... whether it would have made a difference by that stage I don't know. 3 Armagh Tyrone games that year, we were up by 1 point overall, so although Tyrone were at the peak of their powers that year, so were we. The semi could've went either way, and while it was very very hard to take that defeat, Tyrone did deserve to win the final.
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Post by donegalman on May 7, 2015 17:05:27 GMT
Actually, having thought about this before, we may have won the All Ireland in 2005 and 2010 under the old system. Also we may have got the O Neill monkey off our backs in the 2007 final! Although with all my objections, justice was delivered by the back door in 2005. The Ulster final was Tír Eoghain's until the two bizarre sendings off of Canavan and O Neill. They were in a class of their (Tyr)own that year. I've never so simultaneously admired, and been sickened by, a team's performance as I was at the final. I think that there has to be a line drawn, re the quarter final defeat of the provincial winners deserving a second chance, that means in theory an even greater advantage for stronger teams, and lets face it, you are not going to make the competition any more exciting by doing this, the opposite is likely. Scrapping the back door altogether isnt going to happen for the simple reason that it is such a money spinner now, and does add much excitement in late june and early july, when there is little else on offer due to the weakness of the provincial championships as meaningful competition in their own rights. The handicapping of successful teams, denying a back door for winners of the 3 previous years, or seeding negatively the winners of the provincial finals the following year away from home and in the first round would all be things worth looking at. There is no excitement until at least the semi finals any more.. Monaghan were not 20 points worse than dublin last year, but they were on the day due to their unfortunate fixture pile up before the quarter final. Something has to be done about it, there is no doubt that the back door may give you another chance, but it is not all good either.
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Post by Ard Mhacha on May 7, 2015 17:34:10 GMT
The back door has diluted the provincial c'ships. The whole format needs looking at. The c'ship as a whole has become stale.
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fitz
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Post by fitz on May 7, 2015 19:49:34 GMT
Actually, having thought about this before, we may have won the All Ireland in 2005 and 2010 under the old system. Also we may have got the O Neill monkey off our backs in the 2007 final! Although with all my objections, justice was delivered by the back door in 2005. The Ulster final was Tír Eoghain's until the two bizarre sendings off of Canavan and O Neill. They were in a class of their (Tyr)own that year. I've never so simultaneously admired, and been sickened by, a team's performance as I was at the final. I laughed out loud at that final point Suill. Enjoyed it immensely. How true. I think it was Southward's? version of the GAA rules that was the funniest thing I ever read on here. A goal - a shot by JOD A point - a miss by JOD ... Was priceless.
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Post by southward on May 7, 2015 20:09:24 GMT
Are some people really advocating that more successful teams be handicapped in some way ? This is nuts. "the current system sorta ensures that one of the usual suspects will win the AI every year" (Dermot). So what? One of the "usual suspects" wins in most sports every year. That's the nature of sport. How many different teams win the World Cup, the Rugby World Cup, the Premiership ? - fewer than win the AI , that's for sure.
The back-door does not reinforce this, nor was it intended to. In fact, if anything there's been a greater spread of winners since it's inception, though this is probably coincidental . The backdoor was designed (and with the weaker teams in mind) to ensure at least more than one game for everyone, nothing else. It does this, and it's good.
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Post by kerrygold on May 7, 2015 20:45:27 GMT
There seems to be no appetite what so ever to introduce four regional groups of eight to replace the current provincial set up. Until that changes the conversation is dead.
Agus rud eile: I see John Tracey is introducing blood testing for intercounty players in 2016. Why not just pay the players altogether now and just get on with a proper professional game?
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Post by ansúilleabhánach on May 8, 2015 2:37:33 GMT
Actually, having thought about this before, we may have won the All Ireland in 2005 and 2010 under the old system. Also we may have got the O Neill monkey off our backs in the 2007 final! Although with all my objections, justice was delivered by the back door in 2005. The Ulster final was Tír Eoghain's until the two bizarre sendings off of Canavan and O Neill. They were in a class of their (Tyr)own that year. I've never so simultaneously admired, and been sickened by, a team's performance as I was at the final. Ah, that back door. Came in at the wrong time for us definitely. Tyrone should have won it the first day. 4 points up, couple minutes left yet you rarely hear praise for our comeback. The replay, don't forget McKeever was harshly sent off too, with Canavan. O'Neill, harsh yes. McMenamin, well... whether it would have made a difference by that stage I don't know. 3 Armagh Tyrone games that year, we were up by 1 point overall, so although Tyrone were at the peak of their powers that year, so were we. The semi could've went either way, and while it was very very hard to take that defeat, Tyrone did deserve to win the final. Gabh mo leithsceal Ard Mhacha, I didn't mean to run your county down- you were superb that year! What a goal that was at the end of the first day- not only McDonnell's finish, but McEntee's pass was sublime. BUT- it was completely against the run of play. An outstanding smash-and-grab final two minutes. Can't agree with you about McKeever- the least I'll concede is that he should have been black carded! As for McMenamin's actions- a lifetime ban wouldn't have been enough. What he did, in cold blood, off the field of play, had the potential to compromise the man's cerebral circulation by carotid artery compression. It is admittedly extremely unlikely, but you could shear off an embolus and cause a stroke, with sustained pressure to the neck like that. Outrageous that he was cleared for the replay- maor uisce should have been the sum of his ambitions thereafter. I watched the Connacht, Munster and Ulster finals in a bar in Barcelona that day with the brother and a few lads from both Ulster counties. Three games going to the wire that had all of us leaping out of our seats and yelping, slumping back in despair seconds later, etc. A thoroughly enjoyable experience. For the entire six hours a trio of Aussies sipped their pints in front of the corner TV showing the Ashes. There's no accounting for taste! If it's any consolation, in this alternate universe without a back door, I'm awarding you the 2006 title!
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Post by ansúilleabhánach on May 8, 2015 2:52:07 GMT
Why should a team that got through more provincial games get an advantage over a team that has come through more qualifier games? Why not? Surely the championship should be biased in such a way to make the direct route more attractive? As happy as I am that we retained the title in 2007, we can't say we managed two years unbeaten.
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