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Post by kerry83 on Nov 25, 2014 16:50:45 GMT
From an outsider from Down looking in and having watched all Kerry teams since 75 very closely here is my selection. 1. Diarmuid Murphy 2. Páidí Sé 3. John O'Keeffe 4. Marc Sé 5. Tomás Sé 6. Séamus Moynihan 7. Mike McCarthy 8. Darragh Sé 9. Jack O'Shea 10. Mikey Sheehy 11. Maurice Fitzgerald 12. Pat Spillane 13 Colm Cooper 14. Eoin Liston 15. John Egan As someone said earlier...you could pick another team that would be equally as good. Looks good, Swap Paidi and Mike Mc though.
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Post by kerrygold on Nov 25, 2014 17:20:00 GMT
To argue that any particular player could be considered 'the best ever' seems like an exercise in futility, but it does not mean it’s a conversation not even worth having. Apart from Veteran on this forum, I'm not sure that there are too many others who saw much of Mick O'Connell in his playing days. I am glad to say that I too had the pleasure of witnessing 'live' a lot of his many superlative performances and, I will admit, several mystifyingly pedestrian ones, some at rather unfortunate times. There are many reasons Micko generally considered to be the best player to ever play the game, most of these having to do with the fact that he was really, really, good. At his best, he was exceptional, so good that he became the baseline by which all others are measured. Only a minority of individuals have special talent and Micko was indeed one such man. He redefined midfield play with utmost elegance skills and athleticism. He simply dwarfed everyone around him. Referees in the 50's –70's were far more forgiving in terms of things like 'rough tactics' (euphemism for dirty play) than they are today. He had a reputation for under performing against some 'dark art' merchants and there were a few of those about that specialized in that stuff. Two that spring to mind are Galway's Frank Eivers, a garda and Larry Coughlan of Offaly, and army officer, certainly not a gentleman. On one occasion Micko got so frustrated with the said Mr. Coughlan that he dispensed his own justice – a humiliating kick in the arse, much to the approval of the crowd. I had the pleasure of witnessing that. Willie Bryan of Offaly, on the other hand was a fine clean footballer and probably no more than 5ft. 9Ins. Jack O'Shea was the next best that I saw. Jacko had the advantage of playing with a better crop of players than Micko. It’s easier to perform and win stuff when you are a part of probably the greatest side that will ever be assembled - probably better than their predecessors, but that is going to be the case given the advancement in skills and physical fitness. Right now I am not prepared to accept Micko dethroned by any of the worthy pretenders to date. He most have been some player if he was a better midfielder than Jacko. How would you compare and contrast Micko and Maurice in terms of football skills and performance mandad, and their contributions to the green and gold jersey?
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mandad
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Post by mandad on Nov 25, 2014 20:30:37 GMT
Both men have enriched the game in their own right and in their own respective eras. I have no difficulty in understanding why some regard him so highly as indeed I do too. I am not in any way attempting to make my point in a “Let me put you straight” kind of way. These arguments can never truly be proven. The fact is, the generational gap, technology, pitches, and the science the game has become makes this an impossible comparison. Micko was simply the best of his era. And no one should say who is, and who isn't, the greatest of all time unless they can recreate the big bang. Micko was a perfectionist who worked tirelessly at his craft and had no tolerance for those less dedicated. A complex man, he was single-minded and stubborn, a player who reduced the game to its simplest elements: man against man, one trying to outfield and outplay the other. In those instances, he usually won. I saw Maurice in a different light. When Maurice was in there anything was possible. He maintained excellence without arrogance, earned respect without ever assuming it, and displayed confidence and self-assurance within his immense humility. Jacko was different again - Mental Toughness is imperative in today's game and the difference between success and failure may be determined by this sole factor. The gizzard truth is that Jacko had more of that than anyone. Just my humble opinion and unless history is revised in every generation it stultifies into mythology. Sure if God himself lived in Kerry we would break all his windows !
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Post by veteran on Nov 25, 2014 20:59:18 GMT
I always shy away from picking the best Kerry team ever or declaring the best Kerry player ever etc. When I pick one over the other I feel I am offending the other and I cannot bring myself to do that.
The reason I am writing a few lines in this thread is to commend Mandad on the quality of his two recent posts on Micko, Jacko and Maurice. I feel if any of those remarkable men read those two posts they certainly could not walk away with any sense of grievance. Weren't they just remarkable craftsmen and Mandad does them justice.
In a very private moment regarding Micko and Jacko, I might hand it to Micko for the incomparable catching and exquisite kicking and to Jacko for the sheer consistency of grade one performances. But I could change my mind the following morning!
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Jigz84
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Post by Jigz84 on Nov 26, 2014 10:45:02 GMT
To argue that any particular player could be considered 'the best ever' seems like an exercise in futility, but it does not mean it’s a conversation not even worth having. Apart from Veteran on this forum, I'm not sure that there are too many others who saw much of Mick O'Connell in his playing days. I am glad to say that I too had the pleasure of witnessing 'live' a lot of his many superlative performances and, I will admit, several mystifyingly pedestrian ones, some at rather unfortunate times. There are many reasons Micko generally considered to be the best player to ever play the game, most of these having to do with the fact that he was really, really, good. At his best, he was exceptional, so good that he became the baseline by which all others are measured. Only a minority of individuals have special talent and Micko was indeed one such man. He redefined midfield play with utmost elegance skills and athleticism. He simply dwarfed everyone around him. Referees in the 50's –70's were far more forgiving in terms of things like 'rough tactics' (euphemism for dirty play) than they are today. He had a reputation for under performing against some 'dark art' merchants and there were a few of those about that specialized in that stuff. Two that spring to mind are Galway's Frank Eivers, a garda and Larry Coughlan of Offaly, and army officer, certainly not a gentleman. On one occasion Micko got so frustrated with the said Mr. Coughlan that he dispensed his own justice – a humiliating kick in the arse, much to the approval of the crowd. I had the pleasure of witnessing that. Willie Bryan of Offaly, on the other hand was a fine clean footballer and probably no more than 5ft. 9Ins. Jack O'Shea was the next best that I saw. Jacko had the advantage of playing with a better crop of players than Micko. It’s easier to perform and win stuff when you are a part of probably the greatest side that will ever be assembled - probably better than their predecessors, but that is going to be the case given the advancement in skills and physical fitness. Right now I am not prepared to accept Micko dethroned by any of the worthy pretenders to date. Not to say that Darragh specialised in the "dark arts", he was just hard, but maybe O'Connell would've struggled against An Fear Láidir.
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kerryexile
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Post by kerryexile on Nov 26, 2014 14:54:42 GMT
I agree that it is impossible and unfair (for several reasons) to pick a team from different eras. But I do think that players fit in to different levels.
Some players are of the genius level – they do things subconsciously – they don’t even have to think. We have produced 3 of these in my lifetime – Mickey, Maurice and Colm.
Immediately below this level there is the player who has everything – skill intelligence, speed, strength, spirit and usually longevity of career. In this vein I would put Declan, Spillane, Moynihan, Johno, and there are probably a few more.
Next there is the player who has most of the above but can use one they have in abundance to cover for one they may be lacking. Examples are Paidi, Sean Walsh, Bomber, Donaghy, Tom O’Sullivan - there are several more.
Only players in these levels would make it on to the team.
I have deliberately avoided putting some big name in the 2nd and 3rd tier because like picking a team it is an opinion thing and I don’t want this to be a controversial post.
As Micko has been mentioned - I was very young when he was playing but can vaguely remember the clean fielding and the pinpoint, defence splitting passes – previously unseen in the game. So for skill, vision and ability to innovate I (mere mortal) would put him in the top level above with the 3 gods.
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Nov 26, 2014 17:21:48 GMT
To argue that any particular player could be considered 'the best ever' seems like an exercise in futility, but it does not mean it’s a conversation not even worth having. Apart from Veteran on this forum, I'm not sure that there are too many others who saw much of Mick O'Connell in his playing days. I am glad to say that I too had the pleasure of witnessing 'live' a lot of his many superlative performances and, I will admit, several mystifyingly pedestrian ones, some at rather unfortunate times. There are many reasons Micko generally considered to be the best player to ever play the game, most of these having to do with the fact that he was really, really, good. At his best, he was exceptional, so good that he became the baseline by which all others are measured. Only a minority of individuals have special talent and Micko was indeed one such man. He redefined midfield play with utmost elegance skills and athleticism. He simply dwarfed everyone around him. Referees in the 50's –70's were far more forgiving in terms of things like 'rough tactics' (euphemism for dirty play) than they are today. He had a reputation for under performing against some 'dark art' merchants and there were a few of those about that specialized in that stuff. Two that spring to mind are Galway's Frank Eivers, a garda and Larry Coughlan of Offaly, and army officer, certainly not a gentleman. On one occasion Micko got so frustrated with the said Mr. Coughlan that he dispensed his own justice – a humiliating kick in the arse, much to the approval of the crowd. I had the pleasure of witnessing that. Willie Bryan of Offaly, on the other hand was a fine clean footballer and probably no more than 5ft. 9Ins. Jack O'Shea was the next best that I saw. Jacko had the advantage of playing with a better crop of players than Micko. It’s easier to perform and win stuff when you are a part of probably the greatest side that will ever be assembled - probably better than their predecessors, but that is going to be the case given the advancement in skills and physical fitness. Right now I am not prepared to accept Micko dethroned by any of the worthy pretenders to date. Not to say that Darragh specialised in the "dark arts", he was just hard, but maybe O'Connell would've struggled against An Fear Láidir. Hmmm, not sure Mandad. I reckon Darragh had a deck full of cards of the Arts, he could shuffle and play em to suit the game and players, there were definitely clubs and spades in the pack.
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Nov 26, 2014 17:25:51 GMT
I think it's too hard to get a consistent trend of consensus, which I think there could probably be, because the range of years in question, plus the complete variation on what "best" means for folks. For a very specific example, a couple of contributors have put JOD on the fringe stating he might make the team in time. So by that estimation length of service is a key component in selection and best is not specifically decided based on skills. Fair enough, but that is interpretative unless called out. Weightings for different eras in terms of fitness, skills, tactics and very specifically quality of opposition must be factored in. The opinions are quite diverse and without putting a template/structure on it I don't think the thread is meaningful in way of constructive debate on the protagonists of the last 29 years. It is merely folks rolling out their favourites, again fair enough, but I'd prefer a constructive discussion comparing/contrasting. I think that would be more stimulating and bring much more rich points to the table, from memory vaults. I'll put such a thread in place (metrics of 'bestness') if folks think it worthwhile and start a new thread. If not then this thread continues... I've given up on this idea, I must have been having a seizure when I wrote it. There's a better chance of getting 5 (being realistic and not sensationalist numbers in the lotto than trying to nail all the permutations and then get buy in from the punters. The current flow works just fine...
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Post by watchdebreakswillye on Nov 26, 2014 23:08:41 GMT
A team of players from that era who are related to each other. Could have missed a few & couldn't 'find' a goalkeeper. 1. AN Other 2. Marc O’ Sé 3. Paudie Lynch 4. Mick Spillane 5. Páidí Ó Sé 6. Tim Kennelly 7. Tomás Ó Sé 8. Seanie Walsh 9. Dara Ó Sé 10. Pat Spillane 11. Ogie Moran 12. Liam Hassett 13. David Moran 14. Tommy Walsh 15. James Ó Donoghue 16. Diarmuid Ó Donoghue 17. Mike Hassett 18. Brendan Lynch 19. Tom Spillane 20. Tadgh Kennelly 21. Noel Kennelly
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Post by kerrygold on Nov 27, 2014 16:06:33 GMT
A team of players from that era who are related to each other. Could have missed a few & couldn't 'find' a goalkeeper. 1. AN Other 2. Marc O’ Sé 3. Paudie Lynch 4. Mick Spillane 5. Páidí Ó Sé 6. Tim Kennelly 7. Tomás Ó Sé 8. Seanie Walsh 9. Dara Ó Sé 10. Pat Spillane 11. Ogie Moran 12. Liam Hassett 13. David Moran 14. Tommy Walsh 15. James Ó Donoghue 16. Diarmuid Ó Donoghue 17. Mike Hassett 18. Brendan Lynch 19. Tom Spillane 20. Tadgh Kennelly 21. Noel Kennelly Jacko and Aidan O'Shea
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Post by kerrygold on Nov 27, 2014 16:22:03 GMT
Both men have enriched the game in their own right and in their own respective eras. I have no difficulty in understanding why some regard him so highly as indeed I do too. I am not in any way attempting to make my point in a “Let me put you straight” kind of way. These arguments can never truly be proven. The fact is, the generational gap, technology, pitches, and the science the game has become makes this an impossible comparison. Micko was simply the best of his era. And no one should say who is, and who isn't, the greatest of all time unless they can recreate the big bang. Micko was a perfectionist who worked tirelessly at his craft and had no tolerance for those less dedicated. A complex man, he was single-minded and stubborn, a player who reduced the game to its simplest elements: man against man, one trying to outfield and outplay the other. In those instances, he usually won. I saw Maurice in a different light. When Maurice was in there anything was possible. He maintained excellence without arrogance, earned respect without ever assuming it, and displayed confidence and self-assurance within his immense humility. Jacko was different again - Mental Toughness is imperative in today's game and the difference between success and failure may be determined by this sole factor. The gizzard truth is that Jacko had more of that than anyone. Just my humble opinion and unless history is revised in every generation it stultifies into mythology. Sure if God himself lived in Kerry we would break all his windows ! Thanks for that mandad. I find it hard to comprehend a footballer at any time with superior ball skills than Maurice, and off either foot from the hand or placed ball, and in vision of execution of plays. I wonder if Maurice was transported back to Micko's era would he be considered the greatest of all time. Three supreme footballers to come from within a circle of 3-4 miles. Jacko was sheer class everyday in terms of performing consistently at a very high level, winter and summer, right up to his retirement at 35 and remained injury free throughout his career. Maurice was a footballing poet when in the zone, cue the 1997 final. I'm none the wiser as to whether Maurice or Micko was the greater and more skilful ball player with ball in hand. Something I would like an opinion on from people who have seen both play the game.
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Post by veteran on Nov 27, 2014 21:17:18 GMT
Both men have enriched the game in their own right and in their own respective eras. I have no difficulty in understanding why some regard him so highly as indeed I do too. I am not in any way attempting to make my point in a “Let me put you straight” kind of way. These arguments can never truly be proven. The fact is, the generational gap, technology, pitches, and the science the game has become makes this an impossible comparison. Micko was simply the best of his era. And no one should say who is, and who isn't, the greatest of all time unless they can recreate the big bang. Micko was a perfectionist who worked tirelessly at his craft and had no tolerance for those less dedicated. A complex man, he was single-minded and stubborn, a player who reduced the game to its simplest elements: man against man, one trying to outfield and outplay the other. In those instances, he usually won. I saw Maurice in a different light. When Maurice was in there anything was possible. He maintained excellence without arrogance, earned respect without ever assuming it, and displayed confidence and self-assurance within his immense humility. Jacko was different again - Mental Toughness is imperative in today's game and the difference between success and failure may be determined by this sole factor. The gizzard truth is that Jacko had more of that than anyone. Just my humble opinion and unless history is revised in every generation it stultifies into mythology. Sure if God himself lived in Kerry we would break all his windows ! Thanks for that mandad. I find it hard to comprehend a footballer at any time with superior ball skills than Maurice, and off either foot from the hand or placed ball, and in vision of execution of plays. I wonder if Maurice was transported back to Micko's era would he be considered the greatest of all time. Three supreme footballers to come from within a circle of 3-4 miles. Jacko was sheer class everyday in terms of performing consistently at a very high level, winter and summer, right up to his retirement at 35 and remained injury free throughout his career. Maurice was a footballing poet when in the zone, cue the 1997 final. I'm none the wiser as to whether Maurice or Micko was the greater and more skilful ball player with ball in hand. Something I would like an opinion on from people who have seen both play the game. Kerrygold, Nobody will ever be able to tell you who was the superior; Micko, Jacko, Maurice etc. The only possible way you might arrive at an objective assessment is if you could collect all the relevant data and feed it into a computer and see what it might might churn out. I know they did that with the heavyweight boxing champions some years ago. While I am not sure of the outcome I recall that the result was controversial in any case. Not surprising. From reading your posts, I know you have a particular interest in the respective merits of Mick O'Connell and Maurice. Indeed, I think you may have directed that question at me some years ago and I felt unable to reply. In fairness to Mandad he gave as good a reply as you are likely to get. I have been blessed. I have witnessed the entire careers of Micko and Maurice but I would not dare to come down on the side of either but I will address one of the points you made, regarding finding it hard to imagine any player with superior ball skills etc etc etc to Maurice. Very likely, Micko did not have superior ball skills etc etc etc to Maurice but take it from me, with no axe to grind expect a life long love affair with Kerry football, Micko's ball skills etc etc were the equal of Maurice's. Micko was the more supreme fielder, as you would expect from a master midfielder, Maurice was the more deadly scorer as you would expect from an extraordinary forward. They would be the only areas in which one would have an advantage over the other. Kerrygold, I suppose it is hard to imagine a midfielder playing with the style and grace of a crack forward like Maurice. I exaggerate not when I say Micko executed his midfield duties with the same style and grace as Maurice did with his offensive duties. As for kicking out of hand or off the ground with either foot, Maurice possibly had the greater range and maybe just maybe had marginally the better left foot but that was about it. For example: No doubt you recall Maurice's sideline kick in the 1997 final and his supernatural effort against the Dubs in Thurles in 2001. Well in the semifinal against the Dubs in 1962 , he drew gasps when the trotted over in front of the Hogan stand and shot a sideline kick(off the ground in those days) over the bar. Believe it or believe it not, he repeated that act later on in front of the Cusack stand! One peccadillo Mick had was that occasionally he wouldn't bother placing the ball himself for a free but would merely run up and kick it from where the referee placed it or where the opponent had left it. Oh he was a strange boy alright! You say "Maurice was a footballing poet when in the zone" Nobody could argue with that. Substitute the name Micko for Maurice and the statement still remains incontestable. So, Kerrygold, rather than tormenting yourself with the respective qualities of these men, luxuriate in the fact that both wore the green and gold. That's good enough for me.
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Post by watchdebreakswillye on Nov 28, 2014 0:46:47 GMT
A team of players from that era who are related to each other. Could have missed a few & couldn't 'find' a goalkeeper. 1. AN Other 2. Marc O’ Sé 3. Paudie Lynch 4. Mick Spillane 5. Páidí Ó Sé 6. Tim Kennelly 7. Tomás Ó Sé 8. Seanie Walsh 9. Dara Ó Sé 10. Pat Spillane 11. Ogie Moran 12. Liam Hassett 13. David Moran 14. Tommy Walsh 15. James Ó Donoghue 16. Diarmuid Ó Donoghue 17. Mike Hassett 18. Brendan Lynch 19. Tom Spillane 20. Tadgh Kennelly 21. Noel Kennelly Jacko and Aidan O'Shea Thanks Kerrygold. I've thought of a few more since, but not sure if they're 100% accurate. They are: John & Anthony O’ Keeffe (not sure if Ger O Keeffe is related to John & Anthony) Jackie & Barry Walsh (Ballylongford) Jimmy Deenihan & Barry John Keane (related through marriage) Eamon Fitzmaurice & Paul Galvin (related through marriage) Paul & Michael Geaney (cousins, I think) I'm sure there's loads more, but at what point do you stop? Breeding bates feeding, they say.
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Post by Mickmack on Nov 28, 2014 8:14:32 GMT
Drawing comparisons between Mick O'Connell and Maurice Fitzgerald is valid as both were blessed with unnatural skill and could do anything with a football. As a hurling comparison, only Joe Canning comes near as Joe has all the skills.
But for me, I would take Jacko anyday over either or both. Jacko was a phenomenal footballer and a long distance runner to boot. Jacko never seemed to have an off game and if things weren't going his way he just went ahead and grabbed the game and made it his. He won four footballer of the year awards while Micko O'Connell and Maurice got just one each. Club game, league game, championship game, aussie rules game, all the one to Jack...winter or summer he towered over everyone and like the advertisement for broadband, he was "always on". As a hurling comparison, think Henry Shefflin.
In my opinion.
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fivenarow
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Post by fivenarow on Nov 28, 2014 9:34:52 GMT
Drawing comparisons between Mick O'Connell and Maurice Fitzgerald is valid as both were blessed with unnatural skill and could do anything with a football. As a hurling comparison, only Joe Canning comes near as Joe has all the skills. But for me, I would take Jacko anyday over either or both. Jacko was a phenomenal footballer and a long distance runner to boot. Jacko never seemed to have an off game and if things weren't going his way he just went ahead and grabbed the game and made it his. He won four footballer of the year awards while Micko O'Connell and Maurice got just one each. Club game, league game, championship game, aussie rules game, all the one to Jack...winter or summer he towered over everyone and like the advertisement for broadband, he was "always on". As a hurling comparison, think Henry Shefflin. In my opinion. I'd agree with you there mick,in his prime Jacko was unbelievable & probably unbeatable for a lot of the time. The only thing that I will say is that Jacko played on great & probably the greatest Kerry team for 90% of his career where as Maurice played on good Kerry teams for 40% of his & from what I hear Micko played on a lot of poor ones as well. Obviously Maurice played most of his time in the forwards but I dont think either himself or Micko had as good players alongside them as Jacko had - taking nothing away from Jacko, personally I'd pick him too.
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kerryexile
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Post by kerryexile on Nov 28, 2014 14:37:38 GMT
It must be said is that Jacko was very unpolished in his early twenties – he could hit the corner flag as well as splitting the posts but O’Dwyer persisted with him in a way that rarely happens today.
Also when playing midfield with Sean Walsh he was with one of the greatest fielders ever and an incredibly strong man. (Tommy didn't pick it up in the street). O’Dwyer deployed Walsh to take the high balls and hold the centre. Jacko was given a roaming role. This gave him a chance to pop up all over the place and this did no damage at all to his growing reputation. Notice that in all the old photos / videos it is Walsh that is beating Brian Mullins.
Having said that Jacko did become a more polished footballer and gave years of great service. However I think folklore has been very kind to him.
On the other hand Maurice Fitzgerald carried one of the poorest Kerry sides ever to win an All-Ireland in 1997 scoring 9 points in the final. And this after spending most of his career carrying even worse teams. For a number of reasons Maurice’s career did not fulfil all of its potential – none of it Maurice’s fault.
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fitz
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Post by fitz on Nov 28, 2014 21:04:20 GMT
It must be said is that Jacko was very unpolished in his early twenties – he could hit the corner flag as well as splitting the posts but O’Dwyer persisted with him in a way that rarely happens today. Also when playing midfield with Sean Walsh he was with one of the greatest fielders ever and an incredibly strong man. (Tommy didn't pick it up in the street). O’Dwyer deployed Walsh to take the high balls and hold the centre. Jacko was given a roaming role. This gave him a chance to pop up all over the place and this did no damage at all to his growing reputation. Notice that in all the old photos / videos it is Walsh that is beating Brian Mullins. Having said that Jacko did become a more polished footballer and gave years of great service. However I think folklore has been very kind to him. On the other hand Maurice Fitzgerald carried one of the poorest Kerry sides ever to win an All-Ireland in 1997 scoring 9 points in the final. And this after spending most of his career carrying even worse teams. For a number of reasons Maurice’s career did not fulfil all of its potential – none of it Maurice’s fault. A fine final paragraph summation, the 97 team assertion might seem harsh but given their exits in 98 and 99 and to whom, it reads reasonable to me. The 97 final was truly won by Maurice and it is brilliant that even though his medals don't begin to scratch the man's contribution to Kerry football for as Ex says through none of his doing, his genius is seared and indelible on that title, the one that broke the 11 year famine. It's joyous that we got to see such a player and for him to be of Kerry. Christ, imagine a 25 year old Maurice in that Kerry team at its peak in 2006/07. Christ.
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Post by greengold35 on Nov 28, 2014 22:45:46 GMT
We are all lucky to have seen these wonderful players and more so that they wore the green & gold; I lived outside this beloved place in the 90s but took every opportunity to come home to see Fitz play; he was often the sole reason I made the 4 hour round trip to watch National league games and I don't for one minute ever regret it; he was magnificent in an era where we had few stars- a genius, beautifully balanced and ice cool. I read recently of the qualifying criteria employed by Ajax of Amsterdam in the 70s for selecting guys for their youth academy- it's acronym was TIPS- Technique, Intelligence, Pace & Strength- Fitz easily would have ticked all boxes in a GAA sense! At the county final in 2008 I met a Tipperary man on the terraces who had driven to Killarney with his young son- he wanted his son to see Fitz & Gooch together on the one pitch as he reckoned we would never see their likes again- enough said!!
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Post by Chinatown on Nov 29, 2014 20:03:25 GMT
Could watch this all day, goal v Armagh and point in Thurles...makes it look effortless,
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Dec 2, 2014 17:53:34 GMT
If I may be so bold as to humbly and respectfully contribute...............
The best player I ever saw play for Kerry (watching 'live' since '75) overall was Jack O'Shea. Very close behind comes Maurice Fitz, and Colm Cooper. After that, there are many I would put at a similar level. Pat Spillane, Sheehy, Egan, Ogie Moran, Paidi, Walsh, Darragh OSé, Tomás O'Sé (those two really almost up with the 2 just behind Jacko), Marc O'Sé, Seamus Moynihan, Mike McCarthy, Tom O'Sullivan, Galvin, MFRussell. Probably left a couple out. On their days, Kieran Donaghy & Dec OS would be up there too but in my memory they had many ineffectual days and years too. Charlie Nelligan also in the 3rd 'tier' for me, not sure about Murphy.
Do i pick Jacko because I saw more of him in more big games than those I put just behind him? Because his role was so influential all around the field? Because he was a supreme all-rounder? Probably. The only player I can think of that might compare is Brian Mullins. If not for Brian's car crash, oft forgotten/ignored, and considering his displays from 83-84 following same, I think he could be considered thus. Not the Rolls Royce that Jacko was for sure, not quite as prolific in scoring (allowing for the fact he wasn't on such a successful team), but otherwise he had everything.
As for talk of "the negative modern game", I'm not sure on what critera that's based. Take the current 'top teams' - of them only really Donegal could be called consistently overly "negative" in approach, the All-I since 2009 has been one by essentially very attack-minded teams, some of who (Dublin 2011, Kerry 2014) employed more negative tactics AT TIMES. Similar to Tyrone in 2008 and 2005, Armagh in 2002.
Back in the days when 15 players weren't interchangeable and covering most of the field, there were always teams who, at least in some games, employed negative tactics relative to the time. Generally 6 forwards attacked 6 backs. Pulling, dragging, body-checking, 3rd man tackles, and off-the-ball stuff was carried on as far back as I recall. In response to that, amongst other reasons, overlapping players became more of a factor in the 70s. As did "3rd midfielders". Although augmented defences have become very common in the last decade or so, at the same time counter-attack football, long-ball tactics, and massed attack with overlapping and interchanging players have also been employed. To that end you could argue that forwards have more support than they ever had. And midfielders too.
BTW I'm in full agreement with those who eloquently explained that in comparing players from different eras we merely consider them either in the context of their era and leave eras as generally being similar in terms of overall 'quality', or we consider how some players may have been if they played and trained in a different era (this latter a bit pointless I suppose but the point is that the irrelevant thing is differing training/fitness etc, ability is ability in any era. I don't know many players at the top level who would ever have been considered 'special' above any other player based in any way upon their level of fitness. Fitness is a given for the top players at the top level in any era. Yes some lads are relatively more athletic than some others, and able to exist at that level in some way because of their athleticism more so than others, who do so more due to 'skill'. But even the most skillful player would not go far without being at least supremely fit, relative to what the levels of fitness are at the level of the game being played, in any given era.)
In fact, the more you think about it, the relative 'quality' of a given era (how many players of how much quality were around) is also irrelevant. A player should be judged in isolation to some extent. if he plays with and against players of much less ability, then he is judged on ability to perform RELATIVE to what is around him/in front of him.
Here's a side-step provocative teaser for you all - how good could Vinnie Murphy have been had he played solely all his career in Kerry? He is one of the most naturally talented players I ever saw. On one of the lesser talented Dublin teams of the last 40 years. In an era when a great Meath team and no backdoor existed (except for.....you know when/where!) And without perhaps the level of mental toughness that could have made a big difference to his impact
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Post by kerrygold on Dec 3, 2014 23:58:40 GMT
Thanks for that mandad. I find it hard to comprehend a footballer at any time with superior ball skills than Maurice, and off either foot from the hand or placed ball, and in vision of execution of plays. I wonder if Maurice was transported back to Micko's era would he be considered the greatest of all time. Three supreme footballers to come from within a circle of 3-4 miles. Jacko was sheer class everyday in terms of performing consistently at a very high level, winter and summer, right up to his retirement at 35 and remained injury free throughout his career. Maurice was a footballing poet when in the zone, cue the 1997 final. I'm none the wiser as to whether Maurice or Micko was the greater and more skilful ball player with ball in hand. Something I would like an opinion on from people who have seen both play the game. Kerrygold, Nobody will ever be able to tell you who was the superior; Micko, Jacko, Maurice etc. The only possible way you might arrive at an objective assessment is if you could collect all the relevant data and feed it into a computer and see what it might might churn out. I know they did that with the heavyweight boxing champions some years ago. While I am not sure of the outcome I recall that the result was controversial in any case. Not surprising. From reading your posts, I know you have a particular interest in the respective merits of Mick O'Connell and Maurice. Indeed, I think you may have directed that question at me some years ago and I felt unable to reply. In fairness to Mandad he gave as good a reply as you are likely to get. I have been blessed. I have witnessed the entire careers of Micko and Maurice but I would not dare to come down on the side of either but I will address one of the points you made, regarding finding it hard to imagine any player with superior ball skills etc etc etc to Maurice. Very likely, Micko did not have superior ball skills etc etc etc to Maurice but take it from me, with no axe to grind expect a life long love affair with Kerry football, Micko's ball skills etc etc were the equal of Maurice's. Micko was the more supreme fielder, as you would expect from a master midfielder, Maurice was the more deadly scorer as you would expect from an extraordinary forward. They would be the only areas in which one would have an advantage over the other. Kerrygold, I suppose it is hard to imagine a midfielder playing with the style and grace of a crack forward like Maurice. I exaggerate not when I say Micko executed his midfield duties with the same style and grace as Maurice did with his offensive duties. As for kicking out of hand or off the ground with either foot, Maurice possibly had the greater range and maybe just maybe had marginally the better left foot but that was about it. For example: No doubt you recall Maurice's sideline kick in the 1997 final and his supernatural effort against the Dubs in Thurles in 2001. Well in the semifinal against the Dubs in 1962 , he drew gasps when the trotted over in front of the Hogan stand and shot a sideline kick(off the ground in those days) over the bar. Believe it or believe it not, he repeated that act later on in front of the Cusack stand! One peccadillo Mick had was that occasionally he wouldn't bother placing the ball himself for a free but would merely run up and kick it from where the referee placed it or where the opponent had left it. Oh he was a strange boy alright! You say "Maurice was a footballing poet when in the zone" Nobody could argue with that. Substitute the name Micko for Maurice and the statement still remains incontestable. So, Kerrygold, rather than tormenting yourself with the respective qualities of these men, luxuriate in the fact that both wore the green and gold. That's good enough for me. Thanks for posting that veteran, appreciated. Micko must have been a very special talent. Not tormenting myself, just trying to gain an appreciation. - Maurice was no slouch in the air either. Players that played on him at midfield during a less prolific era for Kerry, remarked that he was a very difficult midfield opponent. If he came down with the ball the war was only beginning as one did not know what he was going to do with the ball. Less gifted midfielders were more predictable.
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Post by Mickmack on Dec 4, 2014 20:06:42 GMT
yes rashers, Brian Mullins was a great player. The crash nearly killed him but he came back. A ferocious competitor and his recovery to play again as outlined below really says it all. www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/summer-of-83-26469498.htmlWhile Vinny Murphy had lots of talent there was always a question mark over his temperament, judgement and decision making. Firstly he tried to be the hard man and real hard men don't do the sort of things he got involved in. As regards judgement and decision making, do you by any chance recall the final seconds of one of those four games v Meath in 1991. I think twas the 3rd game. Teams level, ref is looking at 30 minutes extra time, long ball into the Hill, Mick Lyons jumps with his man, ball breaks behind and there waiting is Vinny about ten yards from goal. Unmarked. The Hill erupts, Vinny gathers, the winning point is inevitable, will he punch a simple point or boot it over. Vinny goes for a goal and the keeper saves it and lamps it down the field. Final whistle goes. 30 mins of extra time ensues which also ends level. On we go to the 4th game and extra time and Kevin Foleys goal and Beggys winning point after extra time. I know its unfair to judge a guy on that but the moment didn't find the man! Dublin had a fine team in 1990 to 1995. He was Dublins targetman in 1992 v Donegal but Matt Gallagher got the better of him. He was Strand Roads best player for a few years and the Bomber felt he should have played with Kerry. He hurled with Kerry. As a modern day comparison, I would pick Diarmaid Connolly. Both gifted footballser but........
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demun
On Probation
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Post by demun on Mar 30, 2015 14:17:18 GMT
Sorry for hijacking the tread but I have a question from that era. What was the name of the water carrier for the Kerry team in the 70's and 80's? Used to get his picture in the paper all the time.
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G_S_J
Senior Member
With greatness already assured, history now awaits.
Posts: 647
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Post by G_S_J on Mar 30, 2015 14:24:10 GMT
1. Diarmuid Murphy 2. Marc O'Se 3. Mike McCarthy 4. Tom O'Sullivan 5. Tomas O'Se 6. Seamus Moynihan 7. Paidi O'Se 8. Darragh O'Se 9. Jack O'Se 10. Paul Galvin 11. Maurice Fitzgerald 12. Pats Spillane 13. Colm Cooper 14. Kieran Donaghy 15. Mikey Sheehy
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Post by ruralgaa on Mar 30, 2015 15:25:06 GMT
Sorry for hijacking the tread but I have a question from that era. What was the name of the water carrier for the Kerry team in the 70's and 80's? Used to get his picture in the paper all the time. Leo Griffin
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fivenarow
Senior Member
If it aint broken, then dont fix it!
Posts: 924
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Post by fivenarow on Mar 30, 2015 15:53:08 GMT
Sorry for hijacking the tread but I have a question from that era. What was the name of the water carrier for the Kerry team in the 70's and 80's? Used to get his picture in the paper all the time. Leo Griffin Bagman rather than mayor uisce You'd have to pick a best 30 from that era & it wouldnt do as we'd still disagree. I was lucky enough to see all of those players & you'd be leaving fellows out of the 30 that have maybe 4 senior AI medals not to mind minor & u21's. Its impossible to pick players from different decades but I'm sure that the best players in the 70s or 80's would also have been the best players in the 2000's - class is permanent!
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Post by sinkthelead on Apr 3, 2015 10:14:48 GMT
For what it's worth From what I've seen from the telly clips of yesteryear and the more recent in the flesh
Nelligan ( even though he tried to break McNally up in 85) Ose O'Keeffe T Osullivan
P Ose Moynihan T Ose
D Ose J Ose
D Osullivan M Fitz P Spillane
Gooch Sheehy Egan
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Post by watchdebreakswillye on Apr 3, 2015 16:09:12 GMT
For what it's worth From what I've seen from the telly clips of yesteryear and the more recent in the flesh Nelligan ( even though he tried to break McNally up in 85) Ose O'Keeffe T Osullivan P Ose Moynihan T Ose D Ose J Ose D Osullivan M Fitz P Spillane Gooch Sheehy Egan Your post got me thinking of players since 1975 with O in their surnames. Off the top of my head, I had a go at it and I've given them below. It's quite a team. There must also be a Kerry team of surnames with Mac (McCarthy, Mac Gearailt etc), but I reckon it would have to be spread it out and go from 1903 on...
Paudie O’ Mahoney
Marc O’ Sé John O’ Keeffe Tom O’ Sullivan
Páidí O’ Sé Aidan O’ Mahony Tomás O’ Sé
Jack O’ Shea Dara O’ Sé
Dara O’ Cinnéide Declan O’ Sullivan Mickey ‘Ned’ O’ Sullivan
James O’ Donoghue Vincent O’ Connor Ger O’ Driscoll
Bainisteoir: Mick O' Dwyer. Selectors: Bernie O' Callaghan (RIP), Jack O Connor, Pat O' Shea Subs: Declan O’ Keeffe, Ger O’ Keeffe, Anthony O' Keeffe, Darren O’ Sullivan, Billy O’ Shea
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Post by kerrygold on Apr 3, 2015 18:11:27 GMT
For what it's worth From what I've seen from the telly clips of yesteryear and the more recent in the flesh Nelligan ( even though he tried to break McNally up in 85) Ose O'Keeffe T Osullivan P Ose Moynihan T Ose D Ose J Ose D Osullivan M Fitz P Spillane Gooch Sheehy Egan Your post got me thinking of players since 1975 with O in their surnames. Off the top of my head, I had a go at it and I've given them below. It's quite a team. There must also be a Kerry team of surnames with Mac (McCarthy, Mac Gearailt etc), but I reckon it would have to be spread it out and go from 1903 on...
Paudie O’ Mahoney
Marc O’ Sé John O’ Keeffe Tom O’ Sullivan
Páidí O’ Sé Aidan O’ Mahony Tomás O’ Sé
Jack O’ Shea Dara O’ Sé
Dara O’ Cinnéide Declan O’ Sullivan Mickey ‘Ned’ O’ Sullivan
James O’ Donoghue Vincent O’ Connor Ger O’ Driscoll
Bainisteoir: Mick O' Dwyer. Selectors: Bernie O' Callaghan (RIP), Jack O Connor, Pat O' Shea Subs: Declan O’ Keeffe, Ger O’ Keeffe, Anthony O' Keeffe, Darren O’ Sullivan, Billy O’ Shea Excellent post, well done. Mick O'Connell as the maor uisce
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Post by watchdebreakswillye on Apr 3, 2015 20:39:08 GMT
Your post got me thinking of players since 1975 with O in their surnames. Off the top of my head, I had a go at it and I've given them below. It's quite a team. There must also be a Kerry team of surnames with Mac (McCarthy, Mac Gearailt etc), but I reckon it would have to be spread it out and go from 1903 on...
Paudie O’ Mahoney
Marc O’ Sé John O’ Keeffe Tom O’ Sullivan
Páidí O’ Sé Aidan O’ Mahony Tomás O’ Sé
Jack O’ Shea Dara O’ Sé
Dara O’ Cinnéide Declan O’ Sullivan Mickey ‘Ned’ O’ Sullivan
James O’ Donoghue Vincent O’ Connor Ger O’ Driscoll
Bainisteoir: Mick O' Dwyer. Selectors: Bernie O' Callaghan (RIP), Jack O Connor, Pat O' Shea Subs: Declan O’ Keeffe, Ger O’ Keeffe, Anthony O' Keeffe, Darren O’ Sullivan, Billy O’ Shea Excellent post, well done. Mick O'Connell as the maor uisce Thanks a mill. Believe it or not, I thought of the maor uisce, but decided that my choice would be cheating. My choice of maor uisce requires a play with words and it is Le O' Griffin. I think Leo deserves it for the length of time he spent there and his passion for the green and gold.
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