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Post by jackiel on Sept 1, 2014 11:38:55 GMT
Have to say I dont believe that the Dublin players believed the hype, having spent some time in their company they seemed more grounded and dare I say it humble than previous Dublin panels.I think that they just weren't prepared for what Donegal threw at them. It's been said before that they hadn't been tested all year and I believe that has to have been a massive factor. I expected Donegal to stick to the same plodding non-football we've seen before but they changed the plan while Dublin did exactly what they've been doing all year. I actually enjoyed the match more than I expected. In the stewards canteen in Croke Park yesterday everyone seemed to believe it was in the bag for Dublin and would hear nothing else. The one thing that wrecks my head is this whole canonisation of Jimmy McGuinness, well done on getting the team back to a final after last year's disaster but other managers have done it before and not been deemed to be a deity. The players are the ones who put their lives and bodies on the line not him. 3 week's of Jimmy's winning matches. Eamonn & Co are no doubt working on strategy already, best of luck to them in their preparations and to all of you out there in the hunt for tickets. Roll on 21st September. Ciarraí abú
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seamo
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Post by seamo on Sept 1, 2014 11:50:12 GMT
I think it would be foolish to mix "believing the hype", and lacking the "ruthless hunger to win".
I don't think the Dublin players believed in the silly hype that the supposed experts were peddling; but the Dublin players lacked the ruthless hunger to win that most of the top teams have first time around. When you win the previous year, you don't have the same desperation to win the second time around. But that's the players, wouldn't blame them; Jim Gavin however got shown up badly and I think he did buy the hype, that was at least around him as a manager.
There's a reason back to back has only been done once in 20 years, and that came about largely due to a change of manager between the back to back wins, which brought about a new voice, new ideas and a new hope for the fringe players who pushed the more established players even more.
Take a look at hurling and it's a similar case. Clare fantastic last year, don't even make QF's this year. Same with Tipp a few years back. Kilkenny do a 4 in a row ok, BUT talent was the overbearing factor in that success given it was one of the greatest GAA teams of all time.
It's extremely hard to go back to back and it's amazing that people haven't coped onto that yet.
Whoever win's this year won't be winning it next year. Smart money is on Dublin to win it next year!
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Jigz84
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Post by Jigz84 on Sept 1, 2014 11:56:27 GMT
Dublin were so naieve it was unbelievable. Donegal will not get that much space to attack into v Kerry. Dublin cut through them easy enough at times in the first half. Dublin also missed at least 5 or 6 very kickable frees, not to mention the scores they missed once panic set in towards the end.
Gavin had no Plan B and was caught out badly.
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Post by skybluezone on Sept 2, 2014 16:12:31 GMT
Agree with most of above, especially not having a Plan B when push came to shove. Don't agree with the "believing their own hype" rubbish, and certainly don't agree that MDMA is 6 foot 6! He's grown at least 4 inches on this site! Height is the main reason Cluxton has to keep his kickouts away from centre of the pitch, maybe that didn't cross your mind though. To the game, almost 48 hours later and I'm still as sick as a small hospital. After 21 mins, Donegal hadn't won a single Cluxton kick out and we were pillaging theirs. As someone above said, convert either of the goal chances at 9pts to 4 and it's probably goodnight for Donegal. But they stuck at it and worked like absolute dogs. Probably got most of the breaks along the way (eg ball knocked from Mick Fitz' hands when Murphy accidentally crashed into him for first goal) but you need them as underdogs. Never thought I'd write this line but we missed Ger Brennan to hold the fort at centre back. McCaffrey and McCarthy love to attack as wings backs but we had Cooper joining them too, resulting in open country for Donegal on the counter, which they optimised to huge effect. Most disappointing for me was that the much heralded "game intelligence" of the players was not manifest in any way when we were in trouble. Kept doing the same things, ie; running straight at a mass of bodies and then ball was turned over. Cue quick counter attack and usually a score resulting. Although in one sense the last two years has this team thinking they can outscore any team, so having a plan b and actually executing it are two different tasks. No doubt Dublin will be back pushing hard next year, age profile and depth of talent will see to that.
Ultimately, Donegal deserved their win, no arguments from me about that. And fair play to them too. Won't even try to call the final, thought Kerry players celebrated a little too wildly at the finish on Saturday, though Eamonn Fitz was calm as you like. Thought Jim McGuinness had won the All Ireland the way he was celebrating, although both sets of celebrations were in their own way understandable. But it's heads down and eyes on the prize from here on in.
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Post by Corner Back on Sept 2, 2014 16:46:48 GMT
Guess the Dublin 5-in-a-row will now have to be 2015-2019? Stunning by Donegal today. Dublin found out by the first decent team they had to play. Even Joe couldn't save them. Perhaps a few outings around the provinces might build the steel and nous that's needed when trying to get out of a tight corner. Donegal will be hugely formidable opponents but I would prefer to lose to them than have to put up with the unbeatable, greatest ever Dubs etc lark that was being teed up. In fairness to Joe, he was even-handed today. Quite simply, Dublin lost because they thought their attack was so good, they didn't have to defend. Commiserations to Rashers, skybluezone et al. Caught on the hop today, it happens. Pity, would have been a great final, now it will be just be another battle. Joe showed his true colours towards the end when time was running out and a Donegal player was down injured. He tried to lift him up off the ground in front of the Hogan stand. Ridiculous scene from a man that is supposed to be neutral and fair to all.
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Post by seaniebo on Sept 2, 2014 16:54:38 GMT
Agree with most of above, especially not having a Plan B when push came to shove. Don't agree with the "believing their own hype" rubbish, and certainly don't agree that MDMA is 6 foot 6! He's grown at least 4 inches on this site! Height is the main reason Cluxton has to keep his kickouts away from centre of the pitch, maybe that didn't cross your mind though. To the game, almost 48 hours later and I'm still as sick as a small hospital. After 21 mins, Donegal hadn't won a single Cluxton kick out and we were pillaging theirs. As someone above said, convert either of the goal chances at 9pts to 4 and it's probably goodnight for Donegal. But they stuck at it and worked like absolute dogs. Probably got most of the breaks along the way (eg ball knocked from Mick Fitz' hands when Murphy accidentally crashed into him for first goal) but you need them as underdogs. Never thought I'd write this line but we missed Ger Brennan to hold the fort at centre back. McCaffrey and McCarthy love to attack as wings backs but we had Cooper joining them too, resulting in open country for Donegal on the counter, which they optimised to huge effect. Most disappointing for me was that the much heralded "game intelligence" of the players was not manifest in any way when we were in trouble. Kept doing the same things, ie; running straight at a mass of bodies and then ball was turned over. Cue quick counter attack and usually a score resulting. Although in one sense the last two years has this team thinking they can outscore any team, so having a plan b and actually executing it are two different tasks. No doubt Dublin will be back pushing hard next year, age profile and depth of talent will see to that. Ultimately, Donegal deserved their win, no arguments from me about that. And fair play to them too. Won't even try to call the final, thought Kerry players celebrated a little too wildly at the finish on Saturday, though Eamonn Fitz was calm as you like. Thought Jim McGuinness had won the All Ireland the way he was celebrating, although both sets of celebrations were in their own way understandable. But it's heads down and eyes on the prize from here on in. The whole thing seemed to seep through the team. The likes of Mccarthy's foul on the ball, Brogan's incredible misses, the incredible lack of defending etc etc, just picked away at the confidence of the Dublin player's to the point where the writing was on the wall long before the final whistle. They simply didn't perform. I completely agree with you re the hype theory. I don't for one second believe that was the case either. Dublin flew out of the blocks but somehow along the way doubt crept in which quickly became desperation. It was hard to believe. Donegal didn't cover themselves in much story in the first half but hung in there more than anything. Dublin will have learned more about themselves from that game than any other. McGuinness is no genius. Had Dublin put away even one of the goal chances then it was game over. Thin lines I don't agree with you that Kerry celebrated over eagerly. It was a huge feat to get over the line. Arguably one of Kerry's greatest ever given the whole rebuilding phase we're going through. Completely written off in both games. To come from the jaws of defeat on more than one occasion. The delight they showed was only a tenth of the grit and determination they had in pulling this one from the fire.
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Post by Ard Mhacha on Sept 2, 2014 17:39:43 GMT
Seaniebo, I'm not sure about Jim McG being a genius but he got his gameplan absolutely spot on. He deserves huge credit for that.
I heard before Sundays game that McGuinness took his team away for 5 days before this match. I thought there and then they might just do this. It was a huge ask for Donegal, given their form and big players not having stepped up yet. But, what a day to step up.
I know it's all on the day, but if Donegal can execute that gameplan v Kerry, I can't see them being beaten. Donaghy is the antidote Kerry have though to try and beat their system with, and he will be very difficult to keep under wraps for 70 minutes.
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Post by seaniebo on Sept 2, 2014 18:11:08 GMT
Seaniebo, I'm not sure about Jim McG being a genius but he got his gameplan absolutely spot on. He deserves huge credit for that. I heard before Sundays game that McGuinness took his team away for 5 days before this match. I thought there and then they might just do this. It was a huge ask for Donegal, given their form and big players not having stepped up yet. But, what a day to step up. I know it's all on the day, but if Donegal can execute that gameplan v Kerry, I can't see them being beaten. Donaghy is the antidote Kerry have though to try and beat their system with, and he will be very difficult to keep under wraps for 70 minutes. No doubting the game plan worked. This is my theory. I put it to you that Donegal looked completely out of sorts during Dublin's period of dominance including two massive goal chances. It simply was curtains if one of them had gone in. During this time Donegal couldn't even get the ball out of defence. They looked clueless, often times coughing up possession needlessly. They had absolutely no out. Looked short on confidence, completely out of sorts etc. At times Dublin players were waltzing through. One score came from a Dublin kick out and they simply knocked a score over the bar without a solitary hand laid on them. It was unbelievable. What was more unbelievable is that Dublin adopted the aforementioned traits in the second half. Every attack seemed like a goal chance for Donegal. It was like watching a Junior B team defend. For me Dublin shot themselves in the foot and I think Jim McGuinness and Co are wise enough to know that. Either way we have an intriguing final to look forward to. All to play for. Both teams have huge question marks. Both teams will fancy their chances.
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Post by Ard Mhacha on Sept 2, 2014 18:42:35 GMT
Game of two halves-ish. We'll never know had Dublin got a goal, how Donegal would have reacted. Dublin are a good side though, and they will make any team look ordinary at times.
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Post by MrRasherstoyou on Sept 2, 2014 22:41:14 GMT
Thanks to posters here for the commiserations. Ah, that old familiar feeling!
Congrats to Donegal, brilliant performance, once given the chance. I had said all year, what they had the potential to do, and that they needed to steadily and patiently work their way back to the business end of things, and keep as low a profile as possible. They did that to some extent, though it does gall me that they still had alot of hot-air press, and then went on to win the bloody game.
Bitterly disappointing for me, the way we dropped our level of performance after a really good start. As I've said all along, we won't get a better chance of doing back-to-back Sams, it would have been a historical achievement, a once, maybe twice in a lifetime thing for us. But knockout is knockout, and in any event, a low-key Kerry bent on retribution awaited. Feck me, the amount of times we have lost semi-finals with Kerry sitting in the final, it's an unfair disadvantage I tells yis!! Beating us wihtout having to doany more than a bit of spookology........
As Seamo said, it's very hard to keep up the intensity level and the one thing that is needed more than ever to stay at the top is ruthlessness - and for that, read no room for any sort of mental laziness whatsoever. As The Bomber so astutely put it, they failed to realise or react to "the dangers of a contended dressing room". Also sometimes you need to be lucky, that when your performance level drops, your opponent can't take full advantage.
Ragarding the goal-chance miss, I've been saying all along, not being clinical enough with finishing chances, even in the games where you don't have to rely on it, will come to haunt you one day in a game where you really need it. Before the game I called for Dermo Connolly to have the same kind of utter conviction he had in the club final, and just bury any goal chance he got. I'm not picking on him because he was one of our better players. But I expected him to be the one getting the big chance. Just another sign of a crucial lack of ruthlessness.
I feel we missed Ger Brennan and I felt that before the game. He is a talisman for us as well as very underrated performer. Also Bryan Cullen, fellas that did it 3 years ago. And Jim was too slow to bring Deano Rock in, for my liking. He had been tried out already fro free-taking and looked nerveless and highly accurate. And where was Veteran's old pal Denis the Menace? Does anyone listen to me? As Dolores said, does anyone caaaaaare??
Shame about some of the classless ignorant responses in the so-called mainstream 'national' media since the game but as predictable as they will be unchecked & uncensured - Ewan McKenna and Declan Bonner take a bow. Enjoy it while yis can lads. Rashers can only point out to people who indulge in cheap thrills that revenge is a dish best served cold. Cold as a winter's night on top of Kippure mountain, and a february day when the east wind blows into the bay.
Good luck to both teams on 21st september, should a be a great game. Sorry we won't be there to share it. Kerry folks must be disappointed they missed out on the perfect heist..........but Donegal will be favourites.
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Post by Mickmack on Sept 3, 2014 7:34:42 GMT
Tony McEntee wrote this on the day before Dublin v Donegal
In business you make decisions which are often measurable as success by a revenue return.
When deciding on a tender submission you may expect a reward based on past performance, relationships or maybe you wish to compete on cost benefit. But whatever decision you make it often has a way of biting you on the behind when the tender is unsuccessfully awarded. You perform a post-mortem, discuss the ‘ifs and buts’, and disseminate the blame throughout the team.
A better way of ensuring a successful outcome is to perform a pre-mortem. When your proposal is completed but prior to submission take a moment to project your mind forward, assume you were unsuccessful, and then ask yourself why? It may create an interesting discussion and possibly inform or amend the pending submission.
Management in team sports is no different.
So let’s pretend we are Jim McGuinness, the Donegal manager, and our task is to defeat Jim Gavin’s Dublin.
Jimmy’s plan has always been to attack opposition strengths — the Ulster championship is littered with the crushed remains of Conor McManus, Mark Lynch and Jamie Clarke. So it is reasonable to believe he will attack Dublin on three fronts: kick-outs; primary possession in Dublin’s full-forward line; and character.
Kick-outs: Let’s not bore ourselves with the stats but Dublin are good at winning primary possession.
The plan for Donegal is to be very aggressive by providing a full court press on all restarts from goalkeeper Stephen Cluxton. Disrupt the option for easy primary possession and Donegal will reasonably expect to win 50% of long kick-outs. Donegal will attack the break ball in twos or threes and overturn the person in possession. Failing that, one player will continue to harass the ball-carrier while the others retreat to their pre-programmed defensive position. If the principal objective of primary possession is not achieved the secondary objective is to slow play down while the defensive wall is built, moat dug out and draw bridge drawn.
Pre-mortem: It was never a good idea to press the Dublin kick-out. We did not have the required concentration levels and were caught for mobility. The speed of the Dublin attack prevented us from getting into position which left gaps for the fast paced runners. It felt like we were always chasing shadows.
Full-forward line: The opposition may not have been as potent but remember what happened in Celtic Park and Clones. It was a complete shutdown of what were deemed pre-match scoring sensations. The opposition full-forward lines got nothing and the respective managers were confronted with spectators asking “surely [manager X] knew what to expect?”.
“Apparently not!” was the obvious reply.
Dublin play accurate, quick ball into their full-forward line, irrespective of what combination has been selected. Their ability to win that primary possession and offload to runners at pace is what makes them magic up front. Stop this process and you severely disrupt Dublin’s patterns. Options available are: 1) stop the outfield player making the pass by applying pressure; 2) stop the option available to the player in possession.
Donegal will go for the latter as it is what they have practiced and what they are extremely good at. Don’t expect the Brogans, Mannion, O’Gara or anyone else to get easy first-time possession and be able to off load. Expect Dublin to begin recycling the ball and change their plan to a running game with overlapping runners coming from deep. A strategy right into the hands of McGuinness for it will inevitably slow the game down, lead to enhanced frustration, create a higher wide tally as Dublin shoot from distance and angles and finally soak up massive amounts of energy.
Pre-mortem: Did we really think Jim Gavin wouldn’t have learned from the Monaghan game? The ability of the Dublin players to pick their passes was not something we foresaw. The speed of movement and quickness of hands and thought processing punched repeated holes in our defence. It was only a matter of time before the goals came.
Character: I prefer to think of this as fitness, intensity and discipline. The perception that Dublin have a superior fitness and are better athletes to all other Gaelic players presently playing is exactly that — a perception based on evidence of playing vastly inferior teams with inferior complexes. Not so Donegal. The crazy reports about their training sessions are true. This team are extremely fit and play at an intensity designed to drain the energy, frustrate and overwhelm the opposition. They train at this intensity to maintain their structure and shape. Donegal will do whatever is asked of them for whatever length of time it is required. Unconvinced? Study Michael Murphy in this year’s championship.
Pre-mortem: The raw energy and determination shown by Dublin was that of true champions. One tired man was replaced by another just as good, maybe better. It was inevitable we would not be able to maintain that intensity for so long. Our older players just didn’t have the legs. Maybe we should have just sat back like 2011.
Summary: The pre-mortem is a useful exercise that allows you to question yourself before it’s too late. It allows you to strip away complacency and see a situation as it really is. The most important thing is that you have the courage to plan and execute that plan. Jim McGuinness has a plan, he has stress-tested it and his players have full confidence in it.
Donegal have the ingredients and can win this match but few people outside the county believe this.
© Irish Examiner Ltd. All rights reserved
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Post by ardfertnarrie on Sept 3, 2014 11:20:11 GMT
Excellent article by McEntee. Lots of food for thought for our boys.
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Post by haryegsnbaken on Sept 3, 2014 12:45:59 GMT
Dublin were so naieve it was unbelievable. Donegal will not get that much space to attack into v Kerry. Dublin cut through them easy enough at times in the first half. Dublin also missed at least 5 or 6 very kickable frees, not to mention the scores they missed once panic set in towards the end. Gavin had no Plan B and was caught out badly. You are spot on Jigz.
Jim Gavin got it all wrong. Totally underestimated Donegal and had a "we will score more than you attitude" going into the game.
When it finally dawned on him that Donegal were a bit better than he thought, it was too late.
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Post by buck02 on Sept 3, 2014 14:03:49 GMT
Mayo could do worse than look to Tony McEntee as their next manager.
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Post by Ard Mhacha on Sept 3, 2014 15:24:01 GMT
Mayo could do worse than look to Tony McEntee as their next manager. Feck that... He'll be bringing Sam back to Armagh along with Geezer within the next few years. You heard it here first
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Post by buck02 on Sept 3, 2014 15:35:50 GMT
Mayo could do worse than look to Tony McEntee as their next manager. Feck that... He'll be bringing Sam back to Armagh along with Geezer within the next few years. You heard it here first A formidable duo indeed. Armagh will look to what Donegal have done and how close they were to them this year and think "why not?".
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seamo
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Post by seamo on Sept 9, 2014 20:53:08 GMT
Anyone hear Jim McGuiness' interview on Newstalk tonight?
Biggest thing I took out of it was that Kieran McGeeney bought himself 5 years to succeed with Armagh?!!!!! lol I've heard of managers putting in place "3 year plans" to provide themselves with easy excuses for 2 years at least, but 5!!! haha
Is it really 5 years?
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Post by Annascaultilidie on Sept 9, 2014 21:29:56 GMT
This thread may now be closed because the 2014 AIFC is not Non-Kerry.
Mighty.
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Post by givehimaball on Sept 9, 2014 21:34:00 GMT
Anyone hear Jim McGuiness' interview on Newstalk tonight? Biggest thing I took out of it was that Kieran McGeeney bought himself 5 years to succeed with Armagh?!!!!! lol I've heard of managers putting in place "3 year plans" to provide themselves with easy excuses for 2 years at least, but 5!!! haha Is it really 5 years? Given the difference between Armagh in the league and in the championsip - you'd have to say he's already been in place for a year of championship football with Armagh - Grimley only stayed around to deal with the media side of things
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Post by kerrygold on Sept 9, 2014 22:22:08 GMT
Anyone hear Jim McGuiness' interview on Newstalk tonight? Biggest thing I took out of it was that Kieran McGeeney bought himself 5 years to succeed with Armagh?!!!!! lol I've heard of managers putting in place "3 year plans" to provide themselves with easy excuses for 2 years at least, but 5!!! haha Is it really 5 years? Given the difference between Armagh in the league and in the championsip - you'd have to say he's already been in place for a year of championship football with Armagh - Grimley only stayed around to deal with the media side of things Geezer is top class, the Tipp hurlers aren't doing too badly either.
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Post by Ard Mhacha on Sept 9, 2014 22:29:58 GMT
Anyone hear Jim McGuiness' interview on Newstalk tonight? Biggest thing I took out of it was that Kieran McGeeney bought himself 5 years to succeed with Armagh?!!!!! lol I've heard of managers putting in place "3 year plans" to provide themselves with easy excuses for 2 years at least, but 5!!! haha Is it really 5 years? Well, Joe Kernan did it in one year. As did Harte. McGuinness done it in 2. If McGeeney takes 5 to deliver Sam, then I can wait. It took us 100+ to win the first. The second within 5 years, I'll take that!
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seamo
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Post by seamo on Sept 10, 2014 15:43:05 GMT
Given the difference between Armagh in the league and in the championsip - you'd have to say he's already been in place for a year of championship football with Armagh - Grimley only stayed around to deal with the media side of things Geezer is top class, the Tipp hurlers aren't doing too badly either. Sh!t I could have sworn the Tipp hurling manager was Eamon O Shea?
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Post by givehimaball on Sept 10, 2014 18:35:44 GMT
Geezer is top class, the Tipp hurlers aren't doing too badly either. Sh!t I could have sworn the Tipp hurling manager was Eamon O Shea? Nah - Eamon is just fulfilling the Grimley role there in dealing with the media; it's all Geezer's doing that has Tipp hurling so well.
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